51 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

What about when GMs generate billions of zeny to uphold one end of a deal when a dupe is removed?

 

That^

 

Especially when they reverse 2~3 year old trades with 20b+ there's absolutely no way they tracked 20b zeny through trades over a 2 year period.

 

@campitor it happens more often than you think then. Perhaps you need to talk to the GMs.

 

For example, if ANY of my equip comes up as duped (considering I've only traded for 3~4 mvp cards) I know for a fact it's going to come down to substantial item or zeny generation, especially since most of my trades are done via god creation payments at 2~4b per shot or parts that are used, etc.  There's zero way to refund these things.

Edited by Xellie, 26 July 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[MintRoyale]

we all know cards such as thanatos can go up to 100b, samurai 50b, meg is 40b and so on. but, do you know how the zeny introduced in the first place? how can those bilions of zeny flying around, and where are they come from?

 

well, the only way (afaik) zeny is introduced to server is by selling something to NPC and that NPC will give you zeny which will be circulated thru the server. the amount is getting bigger if people keep selling something to NPC.

 

now, which kind of player contribute most of zeny introduction on server? prankly saying, i think they are bots. those mindless drones who hunt trash items all day and sell them to NPC which generated zeny to the server. how about normal player? sure there is many people like to hunt in magma dungeon, or greeding in TI, and sell those junks to NPC for zeny. but i believe the contribution of bots on generating zeny in the server is greater than normal player.

 

well, it is the black truth i hate to admit. And also i dont actually say that whether having a lot of zeny in server is good thing or bad thing, but i can say those mindless drones are the 'hero' of this phenomenon. by introducing more zeny in server, the server will be inflated when all things will increase in price (but NPC items still have same price), and one way to counter it is by introducing zeny sink like raffler event or such.

 

TL;DR: BOTS ARE THE ONE WHO MAKE THINGS HAVE PRICE OF SKYSCRAPPER

 

The causes are 2 fold:

1. Stagnant market

2. Bots

 

FOR STAGNANT MARKET

 

Reasonable Cause is Item demand vs Player zeny income imbalance.

 

Demand:

1. High level stuff: Only buy when can, prioritize important ones first, cost a lot, so cannot buy a lot (unless you are someone who wants to buy a FBH, KIEL,GTB, HATII all at once)

--> Frequency of Turnover = Rare

2. Medium level stuff: Useful but not too expensive. Like FAW. But after you get a certain amount of FAWs, you don't need any more of them.

--> Frequency of Turnover = High at first, then slow down, then none.

3. Low level stuff: Cheap, anyone can buy, because can buy from multiple people, no need to stock too much anyway. E.g. BMx3

--> Frequency of Turnover = Unimportant. E.g. 1B is easy to make, that can buy you 200 HE gums, how long do you take to use 200 HE gums? Do you really need to stock a lot then?

 

Most players by virtue of their leveling/mvping/instances generate some degree of constant income.

 

Because of the demand issues (dropping down), and constant income, general trend is people accumulating zeny.

--> Since MVP cards are rare, and some MVP cards are useful in a lot of settings e.g. Drake, GTB, Kiel, and ppl accumulate zeny: Prices spiral out of control, since players still want mvp cards, and it's annoying to wanna try a new build with a certain card and have to wait so you pay more.

--> The end effect is warding off new players since they cannot afford any of these (despite many of them not even being overpowering), and the old players getting ahead since they are set up to earn more.

 

Perhaps a fix is to add value to common cards. This worked decently for Counterstrike Global Offensive for its weapons.

 

Tier 1 (blue) (most common)

Tier 2 (purple)

Tier 3 (pink)

Tier 4 (red)

Tier 5 (yellow) (rarest)

 

 

The benefits of this system applied to cards are:

1. For CS: GO

- Allow 10 items of the same tier to be traded in for a random item of the next tier above (apart from yellow)

- Applied to RO: e.g. Allow 10 cards of blue tier level to traded to NPC for a random purple tier card

- This helps give some values to low level cards. Low level players can get some income to start up for crap cards that most ppl cbf to hunt.

 

2. Yellow Items cannot be traded to:

- CS GO: Knives

- Applied to RO: OP Cards like Kiel, Gloom, Gtb

 

3. Every update that gives new cards, gets the cards sorted into the tier 1-5 system

- CS GO: For trade ins, since 10 items are needed to trade UP, if a player uses 9 items from an old update, and 1 item from the same tier with a new update, he/she has a 10% chance of getting a weapon that is one tier up from the new stack

- Applied to RO: If you want a high level card from the new stack, you need to hunt at the new place. This encourages players to try out new areas, and hunt there.

 

4. Red tier items can be traded to, and represent the tip of the pyramid for trades.

- For RO you need to have mvp cards that are useful to more players, and are not OP, so that means efforts need to be put in that is intermediate between normal cards, and ultra-rare cards, that new players can reasonable aim to attain.

- e.g Drake card, useful to a lot, some are trying to sell it for 10B, having it does not render ppl OP, so new players can be happy and old players are not too offended.

- failure to have some useful MVP card in this will cause the system to fail just like the recent raffles have had poor support.

 

Problem 2:

- BOTS

- BOTS ARE STILL HERE

- Players get banned in CSGO regularly if they are stupid.

- Players need to register with a real email, and phone number for verification for trades

- Maybe for large value items players need to get email, phone number and some real life ID for verification. If a player gets caught for RMT, this player will be permabanned in real life from RO. (I can imagine a lot of CERTAIN players who are guilty and selling zeny currently being uncomfortable now)

- Players who cheat, get caught, and wanna keep their chars MUST do an online apology admitting they have done wrong (See H1Z1 cheaters get punished by GMs)

http://www.kotaku.co...o-get-unbanned/

- no slap on the wrist treatments

No easy solution, but currently the trend is just BS. So do something GMs.

[EdwinKuswanto]

Quite a few players these days are killing themselves over and over on maps to stay within level range of certain TIs, so I wonder if the bots would do the same.

If EXP % is greater than X, go to <coordinates> (with aggressive monsters), loop until EXP % is less than X, carry on farming.

 

Still, those retard can kill them self every + 100 Spore (estimate base exp increase 1% each time they kill a spore/boa/Wormtail), they want to go suicide then they can do it, it will slowing them, and this system only work for new comer, peoples who already had Transcendent char or VIP got their item limit removed.

 

The item penalty is godawful and will make it so no players ever hunt for their own items/cards. It's already a pain at .02%, turning it even smaller than that will basically guarantee the only way to get cards being OCA or bots.

 

Once again, this item limit only work for new character, peoples who already had Transcendent char or VIP got their item limit removed.

 

Same like when for the 1st time someone talk to NPC Gramps to do TI, we just need to be more restricted.

[PervySageMarty]

MintRoyale,

 

Your idea to follow the card tier progression is very well planned out and sounds very good.

 

I only have one issue, what cards do we consider in which colour tier? If you have already gone ahead and worked out a comprehensive list then it would greatly be appeciated if you share with us the tier lists.

[Nix02]

MintRoyale,

 

Your idea to follow the card tier progression is very well planned out and sounds very good.

 

I only have one issue, what cards do we consider in which colour tier? If you have already gone ahead and worked out a comprehensive list then it would greatly be appeciated if you share with us the tier lists.

 

True as not all MVP cards are as sought after as other non-MVP ones.

 

Ex. Dracula vs Deviling or even Ghostring

[Ashuckel]

lol at the example

[MintRoyale]

MintRoyale,

 

Your idea to follow the card tier progression is very well planned out and sounds very good.

 

I only have one issue, what cards do we consider in which colour tier? If you have already gone ahead and worked out a comprehensive list then it would greatly be appeciated if you share with us the tier lists.

 

Sure, I'd give some examples, and also justifications. Obviously the GMs need to sit down and deliberate what values to give to which, and when updates come how to new cards will fit into the blue tier 1 to red tier 4s for new trade ins to happen.

 

 

But Mint ! WTF if problems XYZ comes up?

 

As I said, market stagnation is a HUGE problem, below are ways to GMs can spice things up:

 

1. As new cards are updated to trade in list, people are encouraged to hunt new monsters as new monsters give new cards which can be traded to new higher tiered cards

 

2. This way old players are not AS advantaged with having farmed multiple OLD cards as e.g. 9 old blue cards + 1 new blue card = 10% chance to next level up blue card. if you get lucky its luck.

 

3. Also GMs can introduce more tiers to regulate the differences in price e.g. green tier or black tier --> this needs to be done before implementation to prevent the accusation of GMs mucking with the market.

 

4. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT MVP Cards!!! Are you stupid?

- No I am not. Like I said, no MVP cards = nobody gives a crap later, since DR AR AAR GR are not that hard to get, and the machine will stop

- MVP card IS A MUST

- As long as not OP it is ok

- Also if GMs really concerned, they can use slightly inferior versions of the mvp card such as the sealed cards e.g. sealed kiel card = 15% after cast delay, sealed beez card = 15% variable cast time reduction. This way still useful, still have mvp attribute, still value for real mvp cards, these cards are in certain official server

- I believe that cards like drake and dracula should NOT be watered down for these though as they are still not overpowered, and watering them down would make it much much less attractive as an option

 

5. But Mint, what else can the GMs do to keep things fresh?

- Raffles: Rare MVP cards (yellow tier, legendary) should be available at rare +++ rate. E.g. Real Kiels. This should be rare enough to not flood the market, BUT still somewhat achievable. By virtue of this the raffles will be useful as a zeny sink

- [ won't this benefit only long standing players who are rich and have money to raffle the heck out of an event?". We know we can do turn ins. One option is to allow regular TIs to allow players to achieve certain tokens. E.g let's call this a raffle token. If player does 1 turn ins, they get 5 raffle tokens. This means that the average poor player can still do turn ins appropriate to their level, and still participate without zeny.

- zeny to ruffle is still fine, but it needs to be sufficient enough to dent the zeny in accounts for players (e.g. 100k to 250k to 500k to 1m) and have stuff good enough to lure us to do it

- I do not say this for my benefits since I have all 1.0s, 2.0 god items, and a decent whack of mvp cards for those who know me, so this is a disclaimer part.

 

6. GMs can rotate the cards in red tier MVPS.

- encourages freshness

- must be at fixed intervals (e.g. monthy would be good), 6 months would make things stale and cause larger bumps in particular mvp cards

- must be regular, unlike MVP summoner which gets changed infrequently

7. The legendary yellow tier is actually very awesome for GM events. It makes an event really like an event as something special REALLY is going on.

 

8. Allow exchange for otherwise less useful or previously useless items for raffler tickets

- e.g. KVM: oh wtf mint, really? Yes really. I got all the kvm glorious items I need, they are sitting in storage accumulating dirt, and this does not encourage people to do kvm yadda

- oh good, kvm badges more useful. But why do kvm when other things can give me raffler tickets? Yes, thats why KVM or glorious badges should give MORE tickets to encourage them being done

 

9. Allow trade in for items to be exchanged to raffle tickets

 

10. One of the failures of raffling as zeny sink is that it takes too long, if no players are around. Players just walk away

- Fix: Since we buy lucky boxes: and they are supposed to be RNG, can't players redeem "Raffle Boxes" rather than use a stupid raffle NPC that has to wait for server? YES I think a raffle box is a good idea.

- But raffle box should be raffled meaning everyone has a share in it right? Yeah but the problems above make it a problem to deal with. If the event is meant to be a zeny sink, then the important thing is that ZENY is sunk and not that it's name is a raffler. Change the name if you want.

 

Player: Mint, you are stupid

Mint: Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, GMs need to fix bots please.

 

 

 

Edited by MintRoyale, 26 July 2016 - 10:38 PM.

[soudou]

Still, those retard can kill them self every + 100 Spore (estimate base exp increase 1% each time they kill a spore/boa/Wormtail), they want to go suicide then they can do it, it will slowing them, and this system only work for new comer, peoples who already had Transcendent char or VIP got their item limit removed.

 

Yeah, can't deny it might slow them down.

 

Though I was thinking to remove the need for players to suicide on other maps as in some cases it causes problems for new players if they utilize Dead Branches on places like Prontera 05 or mob quest maps etc. So I'd wonder about the impact of bots doing the same. Although people already do the job for them by Dead Branching popular bot farming maps (though again that does affect new players too trying to legitimately level or farm items on those maps to get a start in the market).
 

Edited by soudou, 26 July 2016 - 10:59 PM.

[EdwinKuswanto]

Yeah, can't deny it might slow them down.

 

Though I was thinking to remove the need for players to suicide on other maps as in some cases it causes problems for new players if they utilize Dead Branches on places like Prontera 05 or mob quest maps etc. So I'd wonder about the impact of bots doing the same. Although people already do the job for them by Dead Branching popular bot farming maps (though again that does affect new players too trying to legitimately level or farm items on those maps to get a start in the market).
 

 

I cant see the problem, Item limit implemented, or not, there is still a lot of player summon DB to kill them self anyway.

 

Dead Branching popular bot farming maps is the most retarded method I ever seen, implying the person who dead branching the map not using illegal db where also coming from bat farm.

 

Peoples need to get educated, this game is not for underage, if there is kind of peoples who had a problem just because of DB monster, then playing Angry Bird is the best solution (back to console game).

 

DB/Amulet also had a duration, soon the DB/Amulet monsters gonna disappear less than 5 minute, what is the big deal?.

[soudou]

DB/Amulet also had a duration, soon the DB/Amulet monsters gonna disappear less than 5 minute, what is the big deal?.

 

Could be wrong, but I don't think they go unless killed, but a duration timer has been suggested before and could help. Though when I was clearing Amulet spawns with an ME Archbishop, people weren't deterred by how long their spawn lasted. I agree that it is unnecessary and pointless to Dead Branch bot maps (and if there was 100% base guild tax or something, then Dead Branching for Turn In may also be unnecessary). It would be nice to reduce the amount of bots even entering such maps in the first place using an image check game which could be kept fresh using the art community and reward real players, but much tougher to implement in the long run.

Edited by soudou, 27 July 2016 - 03:37 AM.

[leiand]

Thats down the gm team line of work, but they rather let the ppl of iro post the bot locations on a pinned thread rather than just random patrols.
The bot maps locations are almost the same over and over.
And its the GM'S deal for having them there. The GM'S concentrates their work around certain ppl views and ppl ideas but onc the ppl complain about not having alot of this item on the market, they make it possible. Cause its not everyday new ppl is gonna join this game and have low lvl monsters drops on the market and most high lvl ppl dont like to farm things from low monsters cause they can do better with less time and effort.
Without the bot items the WoE ppl will feel it, same for the potters cause they all wait for items from the bots. Which the woe investment system pose to reduce, but its also mainly bots that does it, because these certain npc dont have a smoot flow of transaction like how the mighty hammer npc has it.
The mvp items for cert exchange is the same thing, so the player has to constantly click click click, leading to boredom leading to botting for exchange.
GM'S are just too lazy in this gane.

[Kusanagisama]

Mint, your whole idea is excelent, specially when you substitute true MVP cards for sealed ones, but this would still favor bots, who can possibly farm 500 poring cards a day (= 50 tier 2 = 5 tier 3 cards = 1 special tier card every other day), and guys like Ashuckel, who have god tier luck. Plus your examples are a little off, since you put Dark Pinguicula (priced at ~40 M) on Tier 2 and Raydric (priced at ~15 M) on  Tier 3. How people value the item is an information that should be more relevant than the rough numbers given by some items. Also, I think there should be more intermediate tiers, and something should be thought out to croud out botters from this system. Don't know if it would help, but maybe a 24h account-wide cooldown to use the NPC, no matter what tier you have traded, I don't know. But again, I acknowledge your idea as extremely productive and well thought.

[mildcontempt]

Ideas like this have been pitched before. I can appreciate the effort, but as said above, the tier placement is beyond messed up.

 

Raydric and KK card have no business being next to each other considering KK is over 30x the price of Raydric. 

 

Likewise, a Drake card is something that most players will not be able to afford ever. A deviling on the other hand is not only affordable but commonly used by many. 

 

Unless the goal of this tier placement is to "fix" the prices of the cards in question, it's in need of a huge overhaul. But only if you enjoy the mental exercise, as I can't imagine this ever being implemented. If it was, the 69,420 bot accounts would simultaneously laugh so loud that the cacophonous vibration of their combined voices would actually shatter the time-space continuum and reboot the server to the comodo patch, making 99% of the iRO player base very upset and 1% extremely happy. 

[MintRoyale]

Kusanagisama: Thanks mate. There is no way I can make a complete plan on my own, I just wanted to voice some ideas that may help the current situation of a game going dry and market being slow. Obviously where cards should be needs to be a decision made by the GMs after they sit down and with community input. In no way am I proposterous enough to suggest anything that I say is going to be the be all and end all =)

Mildcontempt: I actually agree that bots ARE a HUGE problem and thats why in both post I have always said BOTS NEED TO BE FIXED. However to say no to any improvements due to bots being present is to say we have to increase taxes to pay for people on the dole who are not on it for legit reasons and abusing it. Bots are abusing the system and they need to be MUCH MORE HARSHLY PUNISHED.

- like I said to Kusanagisama, I am just presenting a general idea. If you wanna nail down to nitty gritty, feel free to come up with your own tiers and justify it to the community  and we can all debate it. I haven't slept for 36 hours in a row typing the earlier posts so gimme a break mate XD

 

There are two kinds of people, the first kind look at problems and try to solve and make improvements, the second kind just whine and put up with bots/thugs/asswipes etc and accept that as the way life is. I am trying to be the first type and contribute to the community =)

 

Also: IMHO Drake card is not so OP that it should be unobtainable by most people. I feel most ppl should be able to get one to be fair. The current prices are really OP.

Edited by MintRoyale, 27 July 2016 - 07:49 AM.

[mildcontempt]

I disagree, there is also a third type: the perpetual contrarian. 

 

My bot comment wasn't aimed specifically at you, so much as the botting phenomenon in general. Anyway, my biggest gripe with your suggestion is the tier placement and that it does not take into account the price-value of cards. But, I applaud your effort for thinking it through and suggesting it. 

 

EDIT: The drake card is worth 10x or more a Deviling card, the reason I say most people won't ever get one is because I doubt most people will ever have 5bil worth of spendable zeny/items. I do think most people can get 500m-1b, but 5b is a threshhold many won't cross without 1) major RNG or 2) cash shop. 

Edited by mildcontempt, 27 July 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[ShinobiEX3]

 

 

 

On a personal note:

I would however like to see more systematic long term zeny sinks for higher level content with cheaper basic adventuring supplies for lower level players.

Stop putting safe certs in kafra and no more enrich events. Let items break for a year. Best zeny sink ever and you dont have worry about zeny again.

[Kusanagisama]

Stop putting safe certs in kafra and no more enrich events. Let items break for a year. Best zeny sink ever and you dont have worry about zeny again.

 

Please explain how breaking ITEMS will reduce the ammount of ZENY in circulation? Your proposal is the direct opposite of a zeny sink, it's an item sink, that will catapult the prices on all items, specially highly upgraded ones.

[Myzery]

Please explain how breaking ITEMS will reduce the ammount of ZENY in circulation? Your proposal is the direct opposite of a zeny sink, it's an item sink, that will catapult the prices on all items, specially highly upgraded ones.

 

It's to help him get richer.

Items should break more often, but it would be bad practice since the community is so used to safe certs.

[ChaoticRK]

Uhmm, how about making zeny expire. So that no more zeny hoarding. 

[Diskence]

Item breaking would change nothing because the people who holds the most zeny already has their stuff at the point way above the 5-7 breaking point and no one is gonna be stupid enough to use non-hd to upgrade +10 and above items.

 

 

People keep saying take out the safe certificate but they don't realize warpportal probably generates a large amount of money off that, aka if they take it out that will probably slow down future update speed. i.e. I bought 3 crates just for safe to 10 even though the boxes are terrible this fire sale.

Edited by Diskence, 27 July 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[ShinobiEX3]

It's to help him get richer.
Items should break more often, but it would be bad practice since the community is so used to safe certs.

Please keep comments as if u know me to ur self. If I wanted to get richer I'd opt for lots of things kafra related to get rich. I'm pretty non existent in the game now since I neither buy more sell anything to anyone and I have no zeny since I gave that away to countless people. If I wanted to get rich it would be breathtaking ly easy to do so and I have no need nor a reason to do so. Thank you. The reason why certs and no enrich would be a zeny sink is because items would sky rocket on their on in ragial. People would spend more and the zeny would circulate more smoothly. People hard zeny and wait for enrich and certs from kafra so they spend less zeny. We already have a NPC that gives certs we don't need it to pop out of kafra boxes imo. Anyway that's my two cents in this matter. There can be other zeny sink Incorporated in to it as well.

Thanks for reading

[Kusanagisama]

Please keep comments as if u know me to ur self. If I wanted to get richer I'd opt for lots of things kafra related to get rich. I'm pretty non existent in the game now since I neither buy more sell anything to anyone and I have no zeny since I gave that away to countless people. If I wanted to get rich it would be breathtaking ly easy to do so and I have no need nor a reason to do so. Thank you. The reason why certs and no enrich would be a zeny sink is because items would sky rocket on their on in ragial. People would spend more and the zeny would circulate more smoothly. People hard zeny and wait for enrich and certs from kafra so they spend less zeny. We already have a NPC that gives certs we don't need it to pop out of kafra boxes imo. Anyway that's my two cents in this matter. There can be other zeny sink Incorporated in to it as well.

Thanks for reading

 

Thanks for your explanation, but the problem on zeny generation is that it the relative scarcety between money and goods (in this case, zeny and items), and if there's no certs and no enriched events, the items would become more and more scarce, make zeny more and more abundant in relative terms. The items price would just increase exponentially, giving a great advantage to those who have already benefited from hammer events. Those who hoarded items to sell later would have an even greater (and, in my opinion, unfair) advantage.

Money is not an end on itself, at least for normal people. People competing for positions in Forbes ranks don't really want to show off their money, they want to show off themselves are superior to other enterpreneurs. Maybe the same effect happens in Ragnarok, who knows? But for the vast majority of the people you don't want money, you want whatever money can buy you, and if you hoard money (in game - IRL there can be more reasons) its because you want to buy items that you currently cannot, or you don't know for sure how much you would need to expend to get something you may want in the future (for example, if you plan to make a character of a class that you currently don't have gears for), and so on. If items became more scarce, people wouldn't suddenly start spending. However, the gap between highly upgraded items and non-upgradable rare items (such as MVP cards) would decrease... more by a great increase in +9 or greater items than by a decrease in the price of MVP cards, godly items and so on. Specially since that zeny won't be destroyed, it will only change hands.

[Myzery]

Please keep comments as if u know me to ur self. If I wanted to get richer I'd opt for lots of things kafra related to get rich. I'm pretty non existent in the game now since I neither buy more sell anything to anyone and I have no zeny since I gave that away to countless people. If I wanted to get rich it would be breathtaking ly easy to do so and I have no need nor a reason to do so. Thank you. The reason why certs and no enrich would be a zeny sink is because items would sky rocket on their on in ragial. People would spend more and the zeny would circulate more smoothly. People hard zeny and wait for enrich and certs from kafra so they spend less zeny. We already have a NPC that gives certs we don't need it to pop out of kafra boxes imo. Anyway that's my two cents in this matter. There can be other zeny sink Incorporated in to it as well.

Thanks for reading

 

It doesn't take zeny out of the economy, that's the point.
People in this thread do not care about circulation, which does absolutely nothing for the economy.
The ones sitting on billions of zeny won't spend it unless whatever they are waiting for hits the market, or some new and exciting must have items gets introduced and they have to spend zeny to enchant it.

[YuyaFungami]

If you could buy guild halls/buildings in RO for zeny, and furnish it with stuff like a kafra etc, I would be parting with zeny as it is something worth investing in. Sad that RO never did a guild hall system it is quite a good money sink.

[ChaoticRK]

If you could buy guild halls/buildings in RO for zeny, and furnish it with stuff like a kafra etc, I would be parting with zeny as it is something worth investing in. Sad that RO never did a guild hall system it is quite a good money sink.

 

Yeah. We could buy sofa, beds, tubs, tv sets..... Upgrade your walls. Paint jobs. Buy some wallpapers. Add some tolls on every portals. Add hunger feature to characters. Every time your hungers drops you need to visit a restaurant and eat. Limit the restaurants availability only on main cities. If you can't eat before your hunger status drops to 0 you will be confined to a hospital for a x amount of time.

 

I think this would sink zeny and prevent botting if not all.