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Offhand: Icepick vs [4] off-hand


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#1 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 06:49 PM

We always say, use Icepick for High Def monsters while [4] MG otherwise, but how high is high-def? What would actually be the Def figures when we say high-Def?


Edited by CadburyChocolate, 25 September 2016 - 06:50 PM.

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#2 DeadIntern

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 07:33 PM

I tried comparing Ice Pick [AK] with MG [3x Titan, 1 Strouf] on Devil Tower MVP (166 Def), and it seems MG still wins. So I guess around 200 Def?

 

Main Hand was +7 FQL [2xAK] with Aspersio buff


Edited by DeadIntern, 25 September 2016 - 07:35 PM.

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#3 Ashuckel

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:57 AM

It depends on each one of the MVPs, not only their DEF, but if all the racial/element/size cards are avaiable to be used against them. Also have to consider if any other gear gives partial def ignore( like kvm weapons).
Not to forget in some cases Ice Pick might be better on the mainhand, but thats mainly if the mvp has both a good def+ is Large size.
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#4 koplikop

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 12:30 AM

It depends on each one of the MVPs, not only their DEF, but if all the racial/element/size cards are avaiable to be used against them. Also have to consider if any other gear gives partial def ignore( like kvm weapons).
Not to forget in some cases Ice Pick might be better on the mainhand, but thats mainly if the mvp has both a good def+ is Large size.

 

So when do you use Ice Pick on the Mainhand? Do you have a certain def value in mind on when IP becomes more viable as opposed to other mainhand daggers (i.e. +9 Double AK FQL)?
 

Do we also consider soft def? or just look at the hard def?


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#5 xMLGzus

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:21 AM

OGH First MVP Root 

 

+9 Icepick main hand with +10 MG 2 Strouf Cards and 2 Kaho cards 


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#6 Havenn

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:25 AM

I always did like the number 200, but a bit more than that is best


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#7 mildcontempt

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 10:44 AM

IMO the size mod is just as or more important than the defense value when using a high wATK weapon with a multitude of % mods, though something like Valk, Ifrit, Root, Tao, Vesper, TG, Detard, Gopinch, etc. are ideal in that they have 350+ hard def and are also large sized. 


Edited by mildcontempt, 28 September 2016 - 10:45 AM.

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#8 koplikop

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 07:05 AM

So for MVPs with High Def + Large Size using an Ice Pick on the mainhand is better, and a combination of racial/element/size on the offhand? Is that right? From videos I've seen I have observed that for High Def + Large Size MVPs IP on mainhand and racial/element/size combination on offhand yields good damage. But what if I use  a 4x AK on the offhand with Ice Pick on the mainhand against High Def + Large Size MVPs? Will I still get good results or anywhere near to that of the earlier set-up?


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#9 mildcontempt

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 09:33 AM

Quad AK would work fine too, it'd be "less optimal" but it also would mean you'd need less offhand daggers. 

 

Assuming your main hand icepick isn't slotted, just looking at left hand, the question becomes how to juggle the various 25%, 20%, and 20% modifiers keeping in mind that any general mods like RWC ring atk % stacks additively with the AK, and that Bako tats would stack additively with size cards, etc.

 

Let's assume you're naked and just using the two daggers.

 

4x AK = 2x your ATK

2x AK + 2x Racial = 1.5 x 1.4 = 2.1x your ATK

2x AK + 2x Element = 1.5 x 1.4 = 2.1x your ATK

2x AK + 1x Racial + 1x Element = 1.5 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 2.16 your ATK

1x AK + 2x Racial + 1x Eelment = 1.25 x 1.4 x 1.2 = 2.1 your ATK

1x AK + 1x Racial + 2x Eelment = 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.4 = 2.1 your ATK

 

.......on and on. The goal with multiplying values isn't to have one value be higher than the others, but to have them be equally high. So 1.25 x 1.25 > 1.3 x 1.2. 

 

IMO, I'd just do a quad AK and be done with it. The White Knightage card will be great because it's a size mod (so multiplies, doesn't add) and it's 20% to both large and medium which nearly all MVPs are. Also, +15 atk which is great. 


Edited by mildcontempt, 01 October 2016 - 09:34 AM.

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#10 Ashuckel

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 09:52 AM

Bako tattoo is atk%, its not a size mod.
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#11 mildcontempt

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:21 AM

I thought it increases 7% atk on all sizes? In that case, lump it in with general atk %. Rest of the junk still stands. 


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#12 koplikop

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:37 AM

Quad AK would work fine too, it'd be "less optimal" but it also would mean you'd need less offhand daggers.

Assuming your main hand icepick isn't slotted, just looking at left hand, the question becomes how to juggle the various 25%, 20%, and 20% modifiers keeping in mind that any general mods like RWC ring atk % stacks additively with the AK, and that Bako tats would stack additively with size cards, etc.

Let's assume you're naked and just using the two daggers.

4x AK = 2x your ATK
2x AK + 2x Racial = 1.5 x 1.4 = 2.1x your ATK
2x AK + 2x Element = 1.5 x 1.4 = 2.1x your ATK
2x AK + 1x Racial + 1x Element = 1.5 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 2.16 your ATK
1x AK + 2x Racial + 1x Eelment = 1.25 x 1.4 x 1.2 = 2.1 your ATK
1x AK + 1x Racial + 2x Eelment = 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.4 = 2.1 your ATK

.......on and on. The goal with multiplying values isn't to have one value be higher than the others, but to have them be equally high. So 1.25 x 1.25 > 1.3 x 1.2.

IMO, I'd just do a quad AK and be done with it. The White Knightage card will be great because it's a size mod (so multiplies, doesn't add) and it's 20% to both large and medium which nearly all MVPs are. Also, +15 atk which is great.


Thank you! Your effort is much appreciated. :)

I was thinking of maybe just investing on basically 3 daggers:
1) +9 2x AK FQL
2) +9 AK Ice Pick
3) +10 4x AK Main Gauche

The set-up I was thinking about when facing MVPs and considering mainly their DEF are as follows:

Low/Med Def: +9 2x AK FQL (Mainhand) and +10 4x AK Main Gauche (Offhand)
High Def: +9 AK Ice Pick (Mainhand) and +10 4x AK Main Gauche (Offhand)

But due to the refine event I got my Ice Pick to +12 (may even try to go higher) and got to +14 a Main Gauche. The Main Gauche will come with a Soheon so I'll be definitely sacrificing some additional damage. I needed to use that Soheon to save on luk/crit consumables as I'd be wearing 2 Luk Gloves in place of my 2 Bakonawa Tattoos. :)
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#13 virgos

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:38 AM

+14 MG[4]?? why not Sandstorm[4]?


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#14 Ashuckel

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:41 AM

Coz cheaper and easier to find? :v
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#15 virgos

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:46 AM

indeed .haha 

 

but

but when it comes in refine rate % from +10 up to +20. level 1 and level 2 weapon have the same rate % right? .


Edited by virgos, 03 October 2016 - 04:47 AM.

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#16 fuyukikun

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:46 AM

and the atk difference is not huge
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#17 koplikop

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:28 PM

+14 MG[4]?? why not Sandstorm[4]?


Because pricing in Thor is crazy!
+10 Main Gauche = 10m (average)
+10 Sandstorm = 200m (minimumm

So I'd rather buy myself 20pcs of +10 Main Gauches than go break the hell out of my pocket just for 1pc of +10 Sandstorm! Lo
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#18 koplikop

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:38 PM

And I just checked Ragial and saw a +14 Main Gauche [4] vended for just 150m. Hahahaha That's how it is here in Thor! Lol
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