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#51 Xellie

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 04:21 PM

Ok, you are not wrong on a lot as well. Mainly I will agree with the bit about finesse but for those of us who have hung around for a while, things like that will probably not be a deal breaker.
 
I hear what you are saying on the other points but without a major action, the most that is going to be doable with Classic is band aid fixes. And even the best one of those in the world is not going to make a drastic shift in numbers. To address some of the "core" issues we need to meet them on a "core" level.
 
For example, lets say that today you just decided to join Classic and are now a novice on the server. How long would it take for the rookie you, to be able to compete with the strong version of you? Probably a really long time but what I am trying to get at is the current Classic has a humongous gap between level 99 characters. Which means even if a player grinds it out to 99 they still might not be any kind of a match to someone of the same level.

 
In some cases, Classic just needs a little TLC. Again I want to stress that all the things they've focused on have either been for the end game experience, or for the very beginner. They've not addressed any of the issues when it comes to socializing or anything between the start and end game. 
 

How long would it take for the rookie you, to be able to compete with the strong version of you?

Maybe a few will be willing to go that extra mile and get cards, gear and transcend but most would probably rather quit. If the top of the mountain is too high and not seen as achievable then there could be a shortage of people willing to take on the challenge.


I have two answers to this.
 
1) Not very long if I joined a guild
 
2) rookies should NOT be aiming to be competing with me. They should be aiming to compete with far lower tier players, other rookies and low end guilds.
I am at the very, very, very, very far end of what a new player should be aiming for. I am the end game!  It would be nonsensical to assume they can ever catch me, if I keep playing. That's not how MMORPGs work.... 
 
 

In light of that, the answer could be to lower the top of the mountain. That way the gap does not get as big. Rare gears should be looked at, the stat and skill bonuses after trans and other things I'm sure. As of now, Expanded classes have no role at 99. They can still show up but they would be far outclassed in almost every category. And I guess that is partly how they were designed but if we want to make life at 99 as interesting as possible then we want to include as many odd jobs and players as possible, right?

 

 

Expanded classes (linkers) have roles. Very desired roles, but in PVM it doesn't matter if you're a level 50 linker or a level 99 linker, your peers won't share exp with you. That's a fundamental problem with RO as a whole, not Classic. 

 

 The current Classic population is scattered all around, so there is not a way to lower the power gap and to still have it be fair. Not unless the change is done on a global scale.

 

There are people who play just to be able to climb the mountain because they like challenges. In my eyes, the problem isn't that newbies feel like the climb is too hard, it's more about there being no other newbies to make the climb with. Extra issue, those at the top of the mountain should be continuing to look up, not turning around and throwing rocks at those below. Again I feel like this is an MMO conundrum. If it isn't items and levels that are the issue, veteran experience will always win the day, if not established groups and numbers. 

So in my eyes the issue really becomes, how to you make the people are the top look up again?

 

 

To clarify, by restricting trans and going down to x1 rates, it would hopefully change PvM for the better. Trans levels are like 50-70% of a characters game time so it should still even out and maybe be slightly easier. This could encourage more newbies to try Classic and reduces the end game gap, which could lead to less players getting discouraged. It is the best idea that I can think of to get a big and sustained bump in numbers. (tho I like the server when it is small and quiet as well)
Getting to 99 would be a lot more difficult but also possibly a lot more rewarding if we can get the balance right.

 

 

I'm all for 1x rates tbh, it keeps people pvming longer. No, 99ing wouldn't be hard. But there would be more parties for longer until all the veterans hit 99 again. Then it's dark frames to 70, geographers to 84, thors/bio to 99. 

 

If I'm just going to be cannon fodder, then I would avoid PVP too. If players think they actually have a chance, then we might see more action.

 

Which would be solved if there were more "fodder tier" players in PVP. It's unrealistic to expect to compete with someone like say, myself, a guildleader who's been here since the start if you're new. But there should be other new/low level players to play with. Currently there is not. 

 

 What you say about people maybe not having time for it also rings true. I myself would not give any guarantees about how long I would play but I am thinking more about the welfare of the Classic population as a whole. It would not be fun to lose what has already been earned but I think it is a worthwhile sacrifice for long term gain. I see the choice as 1. we keep what we have but some systems are a little broken or 2. we lose everything but get to fix some of what is broken.
I think making those long term fixes is worth the cost. In the short term it would be a drag but just think of the others who would then be able to start their own adventures.

 

Why I don't think a wipe will work: Lessons ARENT being learned from any prior server, everyone knew how classic was going to end up and nothing was done about it. Some changes such as Ephemeral gods actually ended up being more of the problem they were designed to prevent, the inability to sell to smaller upcoming guilds, etc. Instead they just stagnate and merge and polarize between the two top groups. 

 

Bonus points: Warpportal and the lack of faith the RO community at large (not just iro players) have in them. 

 

(besides a wipe would not be too bad for experienced players who already know how to train and make progress, although I know it would still probably sting)

 

Would it really solve the gap tho? These people will get to 99 fastest in their groups, and the people who lagged behind before, will still do so... 

 

 

And finally I don't believe we should be trying to make Classic 2.0 with a lot of add-on's and extra modifications. Once the central core is developed and stable I think we should mostly leave it be. (with all the current stuff and works in progress included) Classic should be Classic, we should not try and turn it into Renewal.

 

 I disagree with that fundamentally. Classic should be a pre-re mechanics server with its own unique future and content, otherwise we get.... what we have now. 
 


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#52 Xplay4eva

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:41 AM

While I am reading the responses, I am quietly laughing to myself because I like how you answered the questions. I'm gonna rearrange the quotes slightly for the sake of readability.

 

 

 
 

2) rookies should NOT be aiming to be competing with me. They should be aiming to compete with far lower tier players, other rookies and low end guilds.
I am at the very, very, very, very far end of what a new player should be aiming for. I am the end game!  It would be nonsensical to assume they can ever catch me, if I keep playing. That's not how MMORPGs work.... 
 
 

 

Great reply!

 

 

I disagree with that fundamentally. Classic should be a pre-re mechanics server with its own unique future and content, otherwise we get.... what we have now. 

 

Alright technically I do agree with this and other parts of your post. Perhaps how I should have phrased it is that we should focus on perfecting the fundamentals before thinking about additional content. I assume that it could take a very long time, (many years maybe) which is why it is almost the same as saying we should not expect any extra content. If and when the foundation is solid then yes, I would also approve of trying to develop new features but I wouldn't have expectations for them to be added.

 

Would it really solve the gap tho? These people will get to 99 fastest in their groups, and the people who lagged behind before, will still do so... 

 

The working theory is that by taking Trans out of the equation, the playing field would become a lot more level. I fully expect it would have a large impact on the meta game as well.

 

Having a lot of newbies show up is a nice dream and all depending on who is asked but after playing on Classic for some time, I have my doubts about if the server has the means to make that dream a reality. I wouldn't blame anyone for this, probably not even the original architects of the game. It just so happens that we stumbled into more than a few oversights that are a part of the design. On the bright side, if we take a pause, reset and refresh then I think we could see some of the growth that some are hoping for.

 


Edited by Xplay4eva, 05 April 2017 - 03:36 AM.

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#53 Rastaban

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 01:58 PM

  I disagree with that fundamentally. Classic should be a pre-re mechanics server with its own unique future and content, otherwise we get.... what we have now. 

 

As nice as that sounds, I don't think it's very realistic.

 

At the end of the day, Classic doesn't exist because people don't like Renewal CONTENT, it exists because people don't like Renewal MECHANICS.

 

I think it would be more practical if there could be a small development team that works on converting Renewal content into Classic content (adjusting formulas, item and monster stats, accounting for no 3rd classes, etc). It may sound like a tedious job (which would require enough foresight to balance Renewal content to be not useless or OP when converted to Classic), but from a resources and licensing standpoint it's a lot less demanding than creating brand new never before seen content.

 

Classic would get new content a few months after Renewal does, just as long as it takes for the dev team to translate all the content dependent on Renewal mechanics into content dependent on Classic mechanics.


Edited by Rastaban, 04 April 2017 - 01:59 PM.

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#54 Xellie

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:12 PM

That's the dream rastaban, imagine classic with brasilis, dewata, scaraba all converted to classic stats


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#55 Xplay4eva

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 05:35 PM

If I were to say "Ok guys, lets forget about the nuke" and go to the next part I thought was most important for Classic, I get stuck almost immediately.

 

PVM wise, Classic is already mostly completed except for finishing up the projects that are being worked on and bringing in extras.

Balance wise, the Kafra shop has been infused into the servers blood at this point. Trying to separate it from normal game play would probably only kill the patient and would not change much as a lot of the players have already achieved end game.

Balance wise, (multiplayer) Can't do much here, we could give out free god items to everyone to make things more competitive but as Xellie mentioned, the players who are at the top got there through blood, sweat and tears. It would be like cheating the system if we enabled novice level players to suddenly advance into the upper ranks. There are some minor things that could be tried but everybody is everywhere, so "lowering the top of the mountain" is not really an option but neither is raising the bottom too much.

 

KVM sounds neat, but in the absence of a balanced multiplayer system it might not function as well as it could.

 

Its like a sticky situation that only gets stickier the more we try to pick and choose. Let me be clear, there is nothing specifically wrong with Classics structure as it is but I would not call it inviting to new players either.

 

Rastaban brings up a good point and that could potentially be a goal to build up to in the future.

 

Here comes the disclaimer: the nuke option might not even be the right move. While I do mention it and talk about it in detail, it is still only one possible choice. I would like there to be more alternatives, maybe something else will come up? When I consider the two options of continue as planned or reset, my opinion tends to lean in favor of the reset.

"Its nuke or nothing!" :p_idea:

 

(but that is why I don't think it should be considered without consulting the other players first and hearing what they have to say. We also would not want to make a habit of doing it so any changes that people want, they should speak up about while they have the chance. Its kind of a one shot proposal)


Edited by Xplay4eva, 04 April 2017 - 05:53 PM.

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#56 Undying

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 05:55 PM

I am putting this out there because it makes the most sense to me, I'm not saying its the "right thing to do" or "fair to everyone" or anything like that. If I wanted to be successful in the market place this is exactly what I would do.....

 

Phase 1

 

-Introduce super powerful stuff into the cash shop. Put seal rolls in there, put rental MVP cards/gods, put KVM in there, put safe certs into classic. Maximize profits on the server and bleed it dry. 

-While bleeding classic dry, spend time fixing fundimental issues with the server! Spend time converting renewal parts of the game into classic, but maintaining the mechanics of the server. Make it so that classic doesn't have a predetermined end. (Important to note: Do not put any of these changes onto Classic while bleeding it. Save all the good stuff for a relaunch of "Children of Odin".)

 

Phase 2

 

-Merge Classic onto Chaos

-Create new Classic and perhaps call it something cool like "Children of Odin".

 

Done. 

 

Unless there is a drastic population boost (like 500% boost minimum) then the damage is already done....


Edited by Undying, 04 April 2017 - 05:56 PM.

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#57 Xplay4eva

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:47 AM

Children of Odin?


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#58 OccultPriest

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:52 AM

The problem with adding high ticket items such as MVP cards unfortunately it will break the game and remove any interest in the server. Even the op headgears of the cash shop have to be +9 to be good. It would also make the server woe oriented and I have seen how long woe servers last(not long). Since the interest would be high for a short time and profits would be high a long term cash flow would end.
If the games not hard people leave.

Edited by OccultPriest, 05 April 2017 - 06:56 AM.

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#59 Ramses

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 04:02 PM

Yesterday, while farming bio3 noticed gsbs were not dropping as often as they did during the past lighthalzen spotlight(yeah, only killing demi humans), if possible, check next maint if something is wrong.


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#60 kisai

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

Yesterday, while farming bio3 noticed gsbs were not dropping as often as they did during the past lighthalzen spotlight(yeah, only killing demi humans), if possible, check next maint if something is wrong.

 

 

I've been noticing this issue on other spotlight maps for quite a while. Thor's, Anubis, Dimentional Gorge, even Payon GD have noticeable decreases . I have a feeling the customizations or something are being overridden whenever we add/remove spotlight events. Glad I'm not the only one noticing this. 


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#61 coerce1991

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 04:10 PM

LUCKY BOX PLEASE!!!


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#62 aaadvanced

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 06:33 AM

Yesterday, while farming bio3 noticed gsbs were not dropping as often as they did during the past lighthalzen spotlight(yeah, only killing demi humans), if possible, check next maint if something is wrong.

 

https://drive.google...nVObjBIU3M/view

 

1:30-6:30 they dropping at like 1 per minute for a solo char

GMs please increase GSB drop rate T_T


Edited by aaadvanced, 12 April 2017 - 07:27 AM.

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#63 Xellie

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 08:14 AM

Just for the love of Odin make it so GSB farming is a viable group activity, give us something to do/aim for and I don't really mean kvm, I mean something bigger that also works in pvm


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#64 Undying

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 04:42 PM

Nightmare bio 4 with PK enabled on map. Add a 5% chance of a random gear dropping from a player dying. Have the map only open for 30 min per day (rotating on a 23 hour period). Have each monster drop 100% GSB (do math to drop it at 100% with VIP and HE gum). Add in a random mvp spawn on the map every 2 minutes.

All of a sundden pvm got more exciting! It's like what guild dungeons should have been....
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