49 replies to this topic

[Vogun]

It's been a pleasant change to see three very nice entries in the latest submissions in the thread, which kinda highlights that I'm not liking almost all of the loading screens I currently have to glimpse between maps.

 

I'd like to suggest that the prize for loading screens becomes less tangible.  Less liquid.  Quite frankly I'm feeling some entries are only being entered for the Green Costume Hat (me included) which apparently sells to other players for a number of millions (citation needed).  

 

And, despite this promise: https://forums.warpp...tion/?p=2591708 

-and rule #7. Quality

-and even rule #4. Plagiarism

 I'm convinced that some users are still trying it on, with at least one user trying several times (most removed already) and possibly on several alt accounts.

 

Suggestions:

1. Have some standards.

2. Make the green costume hat untradeable like all the others.

3. Have no prizes whatsoever

 

Good fanart inspires others to do better themselves.  Bad art has the opposite effect - why would a user spend hours on a loading screen if they know minutes will be good enough.

 

Basically, make it so that you would generally only enter a loading screen if you:

1. actually enjoy drawing

2. want to contribute to the game

 rather than entering something just for the in-game money.

 

 

Also, I'm completely against this apparent policy of hiding offending/plagiarised entries from us. If it's against the rules then assign a punishment to those who try it and allow users to see that they don't want to test it themselves.  Don't just pretend it didn't happen.

 

 

 

 

 

[ZeroTigress]

The implementation of participation prizes is what led to the current state of the loading screens. Originally, art contests rewarded players with loading screen features, so there were a LOT less loading screens to go through, and you at least knew people put effort into it. Also, people putting in work they didn't do was never accepted back then, so you always knew it was artists submitting them (since the only prize was getting in-game as a loading screen).

Now all that has been thrown out the window since stuff is only getting submitted for the sake of headgears. The CMs got what they wanted at the cost of turning the loading screens into a lottery. Oh well.

[allygator1]

I think we should just turn the hats to be untradable.  Obviously we can't have nice things because players will just abuse it.  Hate to say it, but I'm liking the old system a tad more now that we've seen how low certain players will go.

[Demeris]

Or they can remove the +1int/+1dex that gives Green CC the value.

[ChakriGuard]

The rewards should be character bound. 

In fact I really have no idea why do people really need the hats. They sell good zeny or what? xD
 

Meanwhile ... my 2nd last fan art in iRO

 

Spoiler

 

 

[VModCinnamon]

 

Also, I'm completely against this apparent policy of hiding offending/plagiarised entries from us. If it's against the rules then assign a punishment to those who try it and allow users to see that they don't want to test it themselves.  Don't just pretend it didn't happen.

 

With the concerns of the late plagiarism and little effort entries, Vogun, we are very well aware of the happenings. The forums however do not favor public call outs, or making the punishment public, it's just not nice. We use the private channels to issue warnings and such.

 

 

 

I understand that this is on the prizes isn't it? Who qualifies for the prize or doesn't is on the CM, and I'd believe that will not be posted publicly. Thus, I kindly ask all of whom concerned to have faith and trust in CM Astra's final judgment.

 

I will say this clearly here, submitting an entry doesn't guarantee the user a prize.

Edited by VModCinnamon, 30 April 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[ZeroTigress]

I will say this clearly here, submitting an entry doesn't guarantee the user a prize.

However, the point of participation prizes IS guarantee of the prize. Lest people start accusations of favoritism. See how they kind of shot themselves in the foot with that?

[allygator1]

Glad to know that the CM is aware of these issues.  Maybe changing out the participation prize to be something that can't be abused would deter shady people from trying to abuse the system.

[Sirak]

I just want a blue CC for my gx, my entry might not be very good but i spent a lot of time and effort on it

[ZeroTigress]

I just want a blue CC for my gx, my entry might not be very good but i spent a lot of time and effort on it

We're not talking about people like you, we're talking about people who have been making multiple forum accounts in order to get around the new bound hats issue.

[Vogun]

Meanwhile ... my 2nd last fan art in iRO

 

 

Epic.  But it can't be officially more valued than any other as our community doesn't want to discourage others with less skill.  You understand.

 

With the concerns of the late plagiarism and little effort entries, Vogun, we are very well aware of the happenings. The forums however do not favor public call outs, or making the punishment public, it's just not nice. We use the private channels to issue warnings and such.

 

 

 

I understand that this is on the prizes isn't it? Who qualifies for the prize or doesn't is on the CM, and I'd believe that will not be posted publicly. Thus, I kindly ask all of whom concerned to have faith and trust in CM Astra's final judgment.

 

I will say this clearly here, submitting an entry doesn't guarantee the user a prize.

You can't be nice to everyone, VModCinnamon.  That is simply unjust.  If one child hits another you cannot be nice to both; this should be self-evident.  One requires reprimand and one deserves comfort.  Being nice to both encourages the worst in all.  You can however, remain polite and professional to both; I'm not asking you to be rude.  Private warnings are fine so long the public knows that it was addressed and not ignored.

 

You're trying to cultivate a nice atmosphere but you do it by simply suppressing negativity, which not only results in a very thin facade of civility when applied to all, but more often than not you are censoring those who speak up against rule breakers.  You can't possibly think that is nice either.

 

If I glimpse their work when I change maps, I assume they got a prize.  Am I wrong?

 

You ask for "faith and trust" in a "final judgement", from the whole artists' community, whereas all I'm asking for is transparency from one.  By what criteria is an entry rejected?  By what evidence is an entry censured and what happens to the user for the first offense, and the second?

[Zayaan]

Or they can remove the +1int/+1dex that gives Green CC the value.

 

Agreed. Remove the +3 all stats and +1 MDef from Brazil Twin Ribbon too.

[meli]

Oda did say they were going to remove these sort of costume stats and make them all enchantable to make it fair for everybody. Too bad the idea somehow didn't go through.

[VModCinnamon]

I will respond with what I know so kindly bear with me as things may be tweaked later on.
 

You can't be nice to everyone, VModCinnamon.  That is simply unjust.  If one child hits another you cannot be nice to both; this should be self-evident.  One requires reprimand and one deserves comfort.  Being nice to both encourages the worst in all.  You can however, remain polite and professional to both; I'm not asking you to be rude.  Private warnings are fine so long the public knows that it was addressed and not ignored.

 
The reports received on the entries in a form of an actual report or in PM are valued and looked into seriously, art theft is not taken lightly. If an evidence is already attached then the case is concluded early, the user will be contacted to explain his entry and offer a chance to re-submit within rules. If this fails then we will move to next step. So no, the reports received are not ignored. Please understand that when no proof is attached then we could spend some time looking into the source, so if a report is not handled immediately then please give us time.

 

You're trying to cultivate a nice atmosphere but you do it by simply suppressing negativity, which not only results in a very thin facade of civility when applied to all, but more often than not you are censoring those who speak up against rule breakers.  You can't possibly think that is nice either.

Unfortunately that's something I personally cannot control, public call outs will be removed as that's not the proper way to report misbehaved users.
 

If I glimpse their work when I change maps, I assume they got a prize.  Am I wrong?

 
I don't know the answer to this question but hopefully CM Astra gets a moment to respond.
 

You ask for "faith and trust" in a "final judgement", from the whole artists' community, whereas all I'm asking for is transparency from one.  By what criteria is an entry rejected?  By what evidence is an entry censured and what happens to the user for the first offense, and the second?

 

I believe in giving users a second chance by allowing them to re-submit a better entry, if we see that there's no improvement we kindly direct them for commissioned work. Yet that not working out very well then we can reach the point of no entries allowed but that's at the very end of the chain.

 

 

 

[ZeroTigress]

Oda did say they were going to remove these sort of costume stats and make them all enchantable to make it fair for everybody. Too bad the idea somehow didn't go through.

I remember seeing a post that stated stat costumes are staying on iRO and that the enchant script will continuously be modified to exclude them. I don't recall Oda or Campitor stating what you said.

[allygator1]

i just wish there was a slightly darker red hat that will match my AB.

[ChakriGuard]

Epic.  But it can't be officially more valued than any other as our community doesn't want to discourage others with less skill.  You understand.

 

 

I have no interest in rewards to be honest. My RG always looks best with Cat ears and Elvan ears, not to mention these are my gear signature now.

I also dont need zeny. I only submit/share my arts because sharing is caring /gg It'd be an insult to Chakri (RG) and Elite (Griffon) if the art quality is half baked xD

 

You'e made good points but people always abuse what they can. It is hard to live in this world! 

[Vogun]

 

 

Unfortunately that's something I personally cannot control, public call outs will be removed as that's not the proper way to report misbehaved users.
 

 

I believe in giving users a second chance by allowing them to re-submit a better entry, if we see that there's no improvement we kindly direct them for commissioned work. Yet that not working out very well then we can reach the point of no entries allowed but that's at the very end of the chain.

 

Let me point out the "Call in an Air Strike" thread.  This is a great example of what I'm talking about.  It's very explicit in its one real requirement: that no names are allowed, that public call outs are removed without prejudice.  If you comply with this one rule however, a GM will respond at some point with an edit to show that the post was looked into and often with a real quick summary of "so many casualties".

 

It lets the public know that something was done. Even if they couldn't actually find anyone guilty at the time they checked, we know they took action and we have the satisfaction of knowing that rules are being policed.  It also serves as a deterrent as botters can also see that the rules are being policed.  Here, the report and the offense is purged and everything is clean, on the surface, and everyone is nice again.  No trace, no deterrent.

 

All of this awkwardness, of course, can simply be circumvented by just not offering a reward system which incentivises opportunists trying to make a quick hundred million zeny.  Look at your data and see how often the green hat is requested as a prize.  That should tip you off that there's an issue, or an imbalance at least.  Make the green hat untradeable and the main issue evaporates - people will draw loading screens because they enjoy drawing, rather than because they enjoy spending and people will choose the green hat if they like the colour green rather than liking the colour of money.

[ZeroTigress]

All of this awkwardness, of course, can simply be circumvented by just not offering a reward system which incentivises opportunists trying to make a quick hundred million zeny. Look at your data and see how often the green hat is requested as a prize. That should tip you off that there's an issue, or an imbalance at least. Make the green hat untradeable and the main issue evaporates - people will draw loading screens because they enjoy drawing, rather than because they enjoy spending and people will choose the green hat if they like the colour green rather than liking the colour of money.

Making the hat untradable is what led to the current issue of people making multiple forum accounts to get hats on different characters.

[ChaoticRK]

It's a human nature. As long as there is a workaround they will do it whatever the cost just to get the reward. I agree to make rewards on this as acount bound. Punishment should be made public too.

 

 

...but please reward those you made an effort even if it's not the best of the best. I'm wanting to have my own art as loading screen for a very long time but I have no way of doing so. I could still remember my first submission which wasn't really intended to be one but I'm grateful to receive a participation prize for that.

[Vogun]

Making the hat untradable is what led to the current issue of people making multiple forum accounts to get hats on different characters.

 

Pretty sure you can't back up that assertion with any kind of evidence. Do you at least have an anecdote for that?

 

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt anyway as we're all really nice around here.  The current tradeable hat now lets you exploit exactly what you describe and additionally also lets you sell spares, further exacerbating the issue.

[ZeroTigress]

Pretty sure you can't back up that assertion with any kind of evidence. Do you at least have an anecdote for that?

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt anyway as we're all really nice around here. The current tradeable hat now lets you exploit exactly what you describe and additionally also lets you sell spares, further exacerbating the issue.

They deleted all the evidence, but enough people saw it happening to confirm it.

[meli]

I remember seeing a post that stated stat costumes are staying on iRO and that the enchant script will continuously be modified to exclude them. I don't recall Oda or Campitor stating what you said.

 

Nah first they said they would remove all stats, then people cried about losing effects on costumes like the tarnished lamp +10 luk (and pretty sure pms were sent to avoid the brazil twin ribbons from losing their +3 to all stats too, at first effect had an expiration date). It depends who the GM want to cater their attention to, in the end the last word was as you mentioned.

Edited by meli, 02 May 2017 - 10:37 AM.

[Demeris]

Nah first they said they would remove all stats, then people cried about losing effects on costumes like the tarnished lamp +10 luk (and pretty sure pms were sent to aboid the brazil twin ribbons from losing their +3 to all stats too, at first effect had an expiration date). It depends who the GM want to cater their attention to, in the end the last word was as you mentioned.

This. PM Oda to protect your own self-interest

[CMAstra]

 

 

And, despite this promise: https://forums.warpp...tion/?p=2591708

-and rule #7. Quality

-and even rule #4. Plagiarism

 I'm convinced that some users are still trying it on, with at least one user trying several times (most removed already) and possibly on several alt accounts.

 

 

Hi there! Thanks for your concern here. I wanted to respond to the particular point above - while the rules are still in effect, the reason why you might still see some plagiarized work is because sometimes I don't see it first with my own two eyes. What looks "normal" to me is easily identified as plagiarism by someone else who perhaps has greater knowledge of the particular thing they're trying to plagiarize, know what I'm saying? For this, I've been immensely grateful for the reports against plagiarized work. That's not behavior that we will ever condone here.

 

Secondly, I'm quite saddened to see how this has gotten out of hand. I did not follow through on my statement to bind the hats months ago largely due to blowback - after all, I don't want to negatively impact so many fine fanartists just for the actions of a few who would abuse the system. Unfortunately, it looks as though there are enough people who would abuse it to the point of really wrecking the experience for everyone, and I don't want that.

 

I'll be taking your opinions into consideration with regards on how to move forward with this.