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Shadow walker skill balance proposal


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#1 Nobility

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 07:56 PM

With the removal of all hiding skills in pvp (this includes practice mode too), ninjas r no longer able to use the skill gimlet as it requires u to first burrow to initiate the skill. Because of this, the skill has unintentionally been locked from use. The dmg is rather lackluster and is in need of some love too. As of now, it's a very niche skill that is underused in PvE  though for PvP, cannot be used even if people wanted to. I'm not asking to bring back burrow to PvP as it's a skill that can be heavily abused due to an exploit. All I'm asking for is to make it so people can use the skill without the need of  being burrowed . With this proposed change, other factors must also be taken into consideration such as how the skill works. As of now, the skill can basically be used forever, similarly to that invoker skill that makes u shoot lightning from ur hand/ that fire breathing skill on summoner. Because of how this skill works, it would need to have a 3sec duration for example to stop players from staying underground for an indefinite amount of time to hide which would basically make it the burrow 2.0. IDK if this is even possible due to the nature of the skill though I do find it stupid how gimlet is completely removed due to it's prerequisite being busted. (BUFF)
 
My 2nd proposal would be to reduce the duration of April fools to match the cooldown or increase the cooldown to match the duration. As of now, u can permanently keep the debuff active if u're able to constantly re-apply it which is easy enough. (NERF)
 
Please don't roast me, I am bad at this game. People dont call me Noobility for nothing. Thx for reading. 

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#2 TurtleTuber

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:13 PM

if you bring burrow back for shadow walker you need to bring it back for savage too. also you could just enable the usage of that gimlet for normal (not burrow) groundstatus. this way you wouldnt neet to bring burrow back at all.

 

<snip>


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#3 Nobility

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:10 PM

I'm not asking to bring back burrow to PvP as it's a skill that can be heavily abused due to an exploit. All I'm asking for is to make it so people can use the skill without the need of  being burrowed . 

 

 

if you bring burrow back for shadow walker you need to bring it back for savage too. also you could just enable the usage of that gimlet for normal (not burrow) groundstatus. this way you wouldnt neet to bring burrow back at all.

 

You didn't read a single thing I said did u? U're basically saying the exact same thing I am except u're disregarding certain factors that could potentially break the skill with the proposed change. I repeat, I DO NOT want burrow to be brought back cuz of how the skill can be exploited in pvp which I have already reported and ecouraged popcorn to never bring back. I even specifically mention this in my post so I encourage u to re-read wat i typed up above and add to the thread again if you wish. U're not making any sense and u're definitely not contributing at all. 


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#4 TurtleTuber

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:21 PM

 As of now, the skill can basically be used forever, similarly to that invoker skill that makes u shoot lightning from ur hand/ that fire breathing skill on summoner. Because of how this skill works, it would need to have a 3sec duration for example to stop players from staying underground for an indefinite amount of time to hide which would basically make it the burrow 2.0.  

 

 

 

arent saying to give burrow a 3sec duration? or do i just understand this wrong?

 

<snip>

 

 

If you mean give burrow a max 3sec duration im against it.

 

If you mean you should be able to use the underground skill above the ground without the need of being burrowd, im not against it. sounds good, but then you could have just write that.  <snip>

 

 

 


Edited by Dragonlark, 28 June 2017 - 06:50 AM.

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#5 Nobility

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:51 PM

I'm saying give gimlet a 3sec duration, not burrow and let me explain myself. With how the skill is, there would be no character animation if the player were to stand above ground hence y i think the player should still have that animation frame of going underground (with burrow still being restricted). It would just be awkward having a character stand erect with no movement while a bunch of spikes just randomly pop out of the ground. Though by giving gimlet the animation+action of going underground, it could potentially be abused to hide which was y i mentioned giving the skill a duraction of 3sec as an example. With how things have been coded, it might not even be possible to use the skill above ground like u suggested and even if it were possible ( not my field of expertise so IDK), it would just seem out of place where players such as urself would just complain and whine about the half arsed effort put into the skill's animation. 

 

EDIT:

<snip>

EDIT 2:

Thinking about it now, idk wat can be done about the animation frames b4 the skill gimlet is initiated. Having the chara above ground would result in a stiff looking chara that feels out of place whilst giving it that burrow animation frame would result in players abusing it again since it was the animation was part of the exploit. Maybe give it the woodrush animation of the chara putting its hands together and then spikes being shot from the earth? IDK wat's possible but the initial idea of giving it the animation/action of going underground wouldn't work at all due to the aforementioned reason stated.


Edited by Dragonlark, 28 June 2017 - 06:50 AM.

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#6 TurtleTuber

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:00 AM

I didnt try to correct you. Sorry if i offended you by pointing out that some stuff didnt make sense. If you want to talk about that pls send me a pm.

 

<snip>

Back to the topic: i would rather have a stiff character above the ground than a character above the ground not visible? Wat? Or still underground bound to that other skill? I still dont get it lol

Or just wait till they finally figured out how to use the tools to create an own character animation, or take rhe animation of that 1 awakening skill of savage ( i think that would fit to summoning spikes from the ground).


Edited by Dragonlark, 28 June 2017 - 06:49 AM.

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#7 Dragonlark

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 06:49 AM

Please know that attacking other players is against our forum terms of use and is always off topic. At this moment I am not going to remove any posts, though I will be editing the unnecessary commentary. Disagreeing with someones post is fine, we will always have many different opinions on the forums, however further antagonistic posts will result in further action being taken (this may include forum account moderation or suspension). If you need further clarification on this matter please send me a PM. 


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#8 Precrush

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:51 AM

Top notch moderating there, well done.

 

I don't think that gimlet  should be changed to work without burrow. I don't see a need nor a place for it in the skill set that the class currently already has. Maybe burrow could someday be fixed so that it could be enabled again. Maybe the mechanic could be expanded upon if we ever get totally new skills. But among the likes of daggers, violent blow and ambush I don't see a need for this.

 

April fools isn't really a problem to any extend in highly geared pvp since most damage is from elements. That being said I do see the problem in lower gear match ups but I don't have the faintest clue as to how often those fights take place. 

 

 


Edited by Precrush, 28 June 2017 - 07:53 AM.

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#9 TurtleTuber

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 08:08 AM

once you got defence and a bit of element damage, april fool will become pretty useless. most damage in pvp comes from elements, as you said and because of this i dont know who even uses april fool in pvp.

 

 


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#10 Nobility

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:40 PM

Top notch moderating there, well done.

 

I don't think that gimlet  should be changed to work without burrow. I don't see a need nor a place for it in the skill set that the class currently already has. Maybe burrow could someday be fixed so that it could be enabled again. Maybe the mechanic could be expanded upon if we ever get totally new skills. But among the likes of daggers, violent blow and ambush I don't see a need for this.

 

April fools isn't really a problem to any extend in highly geared pvp since most damage is from elements. That being said I do see the problem in lower gear match ups but I don't have the faintest clue as to how often those fights take place. 

Though many PvE based players don’t use the skill now with just any many who wouldn't even consider using it in PvP , there is still a need to rework it. It makes no sense that gimlet's been "deleted" in PvP due to the problems of its prerequisite skill. It'd be like if the awakening charge had a glitch that turned u into a super saiyan god and is fully restricted in pvp where as a result, there is no longer a way to consistently use ur awakening skills which basically renders them unusable.  It's a really bad example I know, but it's the closest thing I can think of that would fit what this skill is facing. Gimlet isn't broken by any means. Even if burrow's exploit were to be fixed, for consistency reasons, it would still need to be restricted since it's a hiding skill. The game doesn't promote this passive play style and for good reasons too.  

 

It isn't a problem cuz the bulk amount of dmg u deal comes from ur elements. A player with a +0 regular lv1 wep with fully maxed out element cards will deal more dmg than a player with a +20 legend lv81 wep having no cards given that they have the same def, hp but non-conflicting elements for their resist. This in itself is a problem though is a problem for another topic. The problem I see with April is that there really is no "cool down" on the skill since the duration is much longer than the CD. 

 

once you got defence and a bit of element damage, april fool will become pretty useless. most damage in pvp comes from elements, as you said and because of this i dont know who even uses april fool in pvp.

I completely agree with you though you'd be surprised as to how often it's used in matches where elements don't play a huge factor in the fights. Not gonna name names but there is a player who is supposedly the best ninja in the server as well as a self-proclaimed god who thinks himself as "Almighty". So yeah, there r people who use this skill.  


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#11 Bustincaps

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:17 PM

April fools isn't really a problem to any extend in highly geared pvp since most damage is from elements. That being said I do see the problem in lower gear match ups but I don't have the faintest clue as to how often those fights take place. 

 

once you got defence and a bit of element damage, april fool will become pretty useless. most damage in pvp comes from elements, as you said and because of this i dont know who even uses april fool in pvp.

 

I'd like to bring up a big detail that seems to be missed here: this is a very slow and grindy game, firstly, and end-game top tier PvP can not and should not be the only concern when considering game balances... especially with the amount of cappers in this game and a solid reason to cap at lower levels (BSQ). Talk of class balancing should be with all level, gear, and element tiers in mind, because we have players of all types. Not every player spends loads of money on this game and not every player has the time to invest in things like element cards and so on. Fair is fair and balanced is not balanced if it only applies to one fairly small portion of the community. Lastly, Precrush, you state above that you can see the problem with OP's suggestion and admittedly haven't the faintest clue as to how often the issue takes place (or how big of an impact it has, I could then assume in parallel). Myself, I try to avoid voicing my opinion on something I don't know much about. Since this is a game balancing thread, uninformed opinions may have a negative impact on any potential changes.

 

Just from a general stand point, my opinion is that OP is correct in saying that April Fool should take a nerf. It's not necessary for such a skill to have a duration long enough to maintain the debuff throughout the full cooldown period. Unless you have stacked ele, this can be game breaking in PvP. I also agree that it doesn't make sense for a secondary skill like Gimlet to be indirectly restricted from use in any kind of PvP. It could potentially have a set duration that can be canceled by either moving (like Rolling Stinger) or jumping, or be similar to the mobile game version with 1 wave of spikes and a simple x attack animation or ground x attack.


Edited by Bustincaps, 28 June 2017 - 07:19 PM.

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#12 Precrush

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:36 PM

I myself like to voice my opinion on things I do know about and admit where my knowledge is lacking. I highly doubt any of you know either exactly how much people pvp without elements...

I agree that the game shouldn't be balanced toward the end game only. But even at lower levels elements would be a factor if people just bothered to get those cards. Getting enough element damage to have decent damage trough april fools does not require a lot of time nor money (assuming equal fights). So do we just give up on that and say thay gearing is for the high levels? Maybe.

Well that's a general idea that obviously has lots of other factors as well. Nerfing april fools really wouldn't have any inpact in pve nor high lvl pvp so might as well make it fair for low lvl pvp. Original devs probably wanted it to be usable on pve monsters often but since the game has become easy since that doesn't make even the small amount of sense it might have done at the time.

I'd rather have burrow fixed and expanded upon, that's my opinion. Other mmos manage to make hiding skills fair and fun in pvp also, it's not like it's impossible. And like I said I don't see why you'd want that skill to be usable since there's already many front facing short range skills on the class that are good. I do see the argument of it being restricted in pvp but I'd also like some other reason to remove the only synergy skill with burrow. Doing it just for fun and adding another similar skill on the skill set doesnt sound too good to me.

Then again that doesn't matter much either, we are ways a way from the point where fixing burrow and adding new (active) skills would be possible it seems. So if gimlet can somehow be reworked to work different before that point is reached then why not do it.
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#13 TurtleTuber

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 03:22 AM

I dont think that pointing out that the player comes from the guild Almighty is allowed here at the forum.

Elements are pretty easy to obtain at any level and socketing isnt a thing either. If we talk about lowlevel pvp where people with less gold fight, the element damage from a 2* card would be already op, since they dont have enchanted gear.

In my opinion april fool could be buffed so it also sets the element damage at 1. Therefor longer cooldown. But as long april fools debuff works as it does work now, i dont see any reason to change anything on it since you get character element points at a certain level and element cards are easy obtainable at npc gwen.

The player you are talking about uses april fool, but at that level it has pretty much no use.
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