63 replies to this topic

[Popcorn]

PS: Another solution would be to remove the whole white screen effect and just add a 4s stun to it and re-name the skill to "Stun Grenade" instead of "Flash Bang". That would remove the whole lag walk problem.

 

[Popcorn]

The lagwalk you said is the easy lagwalk and it would be ok if it's like that. I personally still face the lagwalk like old Flashbang means people will continously run n hit the wall until the Flashbang duration ends.

And for people those were against adding stun to Flashbang with the same duration like Flashbang's duration then I have to say they're just not wise adult people. The evidence is that they can't point out why exactly they were against it or what will be the difference. Only "omg 4s stun so op omg no" while it gives the same effect as Flashbang's effect (can't move or use skill)

Listening to people without no real explanation for their comments won't be a good choice I would say.

And for the nerf I'm talking about Flashbang duration. From your last night explanation people who were hit by Flashbang won't be able to move or attack by 4 seconds but atm it's only 3 seconds. You can whether use a stopwatch to check or check the vid you just posted on YouTube. It's atm 1s fade in, 2s white and 1s fade out. Not 1s fade in, 3s white and 1s fade out as you said.

 

We never touched the white screen in any way. However I don't care if we add a stun or not, if we remove the white screen (which causes all the problems) or not, if we rename the skill or not. This is a thing you have to clarify between each other because it finally makes no difference for us or the skill at all. DIscuss it, discuss the length you want for the stun, with stun, without stun, a longer white screen, shorter white screen... whatever. It mainly affects PvP so it's your turn now.

 

Edit: If someone wants to hear my personal opinion as developer - to get rid of the problem the solution would be to add a stun of x seconds and removing the white screen completely. This would be the most stable solution.

 

[Onyzer]

4s stun and no white screen effect to make sure there won't be lag-walk with this skill anymore. Same behaviour as it was always intended.

 

Thank you for giving some stopping power to Destroyers, even if it's only one skill which is not instant it will already help a lot to compete with the other classes in PvP. We still don't have any AoE CC, but we'll see in the future.

[easykill1215]

We never touched the white screen in any way. However I don't care if we add a stun or not, if we remove the white screen (which causes all the problems) or not, if we rename the skill or not. This is a thing you have to clarify between each other because it finally makes no difference for us or the skill at all. DIscuss it, discuss the length you want for the stun, with stun, without stun, a longer white screen, shorter white screen... whatever. It mainly affects PvP so it's your turn now.

Edit: If someone wants to hear my personal opinion as developer - to get rid of the problem the solution would be to add a stun of x seconds and removing the white screen completely. This would be the most stable solution.

The stun duration should be as same as Flashbang duration because it's how our skill was supposed to be. A skill we always had in the past but could never use it the way how it supposed to work. It's not necessary to remove the white screen and if u add the stun effect as long as the Flashbang effect then the white screen won't be a problem. But remove it or not it's your choice. I Believe we all destro just care if the skill works as its supposed to be (people won't be able to move or attack for 4 seconds).

I never opened my mouth in the past at the snipe nerf or the stun duration discussion but I can't keep my mouth close anymore after getting chain of disappointment. until today the Flashbang is still not fixed and also worse than the past. Every destro can notice that duration is lower. The snipe skill dmg is also much lower than the old time at 500% crit dmg and no dmg multiplier even when I have everything maxed with 600% crit dmg (not everyone can get that 600% crit dmg as destro and it's not that easy, you will have to sacrifice lots of other stats) but I never complained because I was still hoping you will bring something back for us. But this Flashbang was a big disappointment.

We are not that strong. In pvp we were never spamming x in the past and in bsq it's also too laggy to spam x. To compare our full combo dmg with other classes's full combo dmg then we will also lose to many other like summy, senti sorc, involker, ninja, overlord (if you can combo correctly). From one catch we get 40-50% of their hp and from one catch they can get to 70% or even kill us in one combo. They have tons of skill they can use in pvp, tons or cc (every of those mentioned classed has at least 2 hard cc and few more small cc. In the past I wanted to make vid to compare the combo dmg of every classes to us to show people those were crying about destro but before I finished it then the snipe nerf came out and lost the motivation for it.

Still waiting for fairness.

[easykill1215]

Also the Flashbang is not that easy to hit either so it won't be that kind of OP. You normally have to catch someone before you fan use it. Compare to some other catch skill like barbarian of involker then it's nothing (aoe, 90%+ chance at lv10, 3s freeze and easy to catch)

[Popcorn]

Who are you to tell the developer that the white screen isn't the problem? I told you the white screen is. What is necessary or not is not your decision tbh. and it's out of your knowledge about the code insight. I would appreciate if you wouldn't try to teach me how to code. 

 

So finally your options are:

 

- keeping the white screen and the lag walk how it is now

- having a white screen and adding a stun of 4s (including a short "lag walk" at the end)

- removing the white screen and adding a stun 

 

This are your options, there is no other compromise available. Directed at everyone: discuss it and pick one. 

Otherwise we will pick the last option: stun without whitescreen, renaming the grenade to "stun grenade" and all the problems are gone.

 

[Nobbye]

Just a remainder here: flashbang is not the only skill causing lagwalk. As an european I have seen every knockdown skill causing lagwalk, not as often as flashbang though.

Popcorn very clearly stated whats causing it, and I know I can live with it.

[easykill1215]

Who are you to tell the developer that the white screen isn't the problem? I told you the white screen is. What is necessary or not is not your decision tbh. and it's out of your knowledge about the code insight. I would appreciate if you wouldn't try to teach me how to code.

So finally your options are:

- keeping the white screen and the lag walk how it is now
- having a white screen and adding a stun of 4s (including a short "lag walk" at the end)
- removing the white screen and adding a stun

This are your options, there is no other compromise available. Directed at everyone: discuss it and pick one.
Otherwise we will pick the last option: stun without whitescreen, renaming the grenade to "stun grenade" and all the problems are gone.

Oho, trigger our lovely popcorn won't be a good choice right now and I also don't want it so the only thing I would say to this is I never said "the Flashbang white screen wasn't the thing that cause lagwalk". What I said is if you add the stun effect with same duration like Flashbang's duration then the white screen won't be a problem because the stun effect will be there to stop the lagwalk => so it's what I meant not necessary because the stun will stop the lagwalk itself.

The options 2 and 3 is both good but I would choose the option 2 because we can keep something special for our class, a Flashbang grenade, something a marksman would have. But both are fine.

[Precrush]

What I said is if you add the stun effect with same duration like Flashbang's duration then the white screen won't be a problem because the stun effect will be there to stop the lagwalk => so it's what I meant not necessary because the stun will stop the lagwalk itself.

And he's saying don't make claims like that when you don't know what you're talking about. Sounds fair to me.

If removing the white screen effect fixes it then you should totally do that. No point in evaluating a gimick over an actually working game. It's not really even a cool effect. And you don't need to change the name, flash granade stunning fits very well thematically anyway.

So if changing it to a stun removes the lag walk, could you explain what makes stuns different to say knock ups/downs which do have lag walks? Just interested.

[Dragonlark]

Please know that any posts calling out other players in any way will be edited or removed. Further posts of this kind will be removed with actions taken against forum accounts breaking the terms of use. If you wish to ask a question without interruption from other community members you may send a PM or submit a ticket to our support team. 

[Apocryphos]

The idea behind stun which makes lag walking harder is it forces other player's client to change animations to that of a stunned posture instead of an idle position, very similar to how barbarian works except it's a projectile and it's splash range is very very limited and player's are still prone to knockdowns/launches, Definitely option 2 would be the most ideal, but i question why would it lag walk if they're stunned for the entire duration? even if they did lag walk they'd be walking with the stun's built in movement speed debuff. But I'm not against the last one either given the same duration.

Edited by Apocryphos, 24 August 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[easykill1215]

And he's saying don't make claims like that when you don't know what you're talking about. Sounds fair to me.

If removing the white screen effect fixes it then you should totally do that. No point in evaluating a gimick over an actually working game. It's not really even a cool effect. And you don't need to change the name, flash granade stunning fits very well thematically anyway.

So if changing it to a stun removes the lag walk, could you explain what makes stuns different to say knock ups/downs which do have lag walks? Just interested.

Adding stun to Flashbang would remove the lagwalk because the last Flashbang version with 1.5s stun was working all the time on the stun duration so I know what I was talking about. It was well tested.

I also wasn't against if they remove the white screen effect as long as the Flashbang will work how it's supposed to be(enemy won't be able to move or attack for 4s) just said both is fine
<snip>

I can be sure about stun can fix Flashbang issue because we already could test it quite much with the last Flashbang version 1.5s stun and like what I said, it worked all the time.

my answer for your last question got deleted, so don't mind it xD and luckily I saved this post (not mentioning any player so it's ok now?) last time there was no player who was mentioned by my post also

[5143121023173906760]

We can still call it flashbang since in MMORPGs it's pretty common that flashbangs stun.

Do I need to say that I'm totally for removing the white screen effect for a quality stun ?

[Agitodesu]

Feel like 3 second stun is good enough. Or something like 3 at level 1 and increase it by .25 after every level to 4 seconds at level 5. Removing the white screen is perfectly fine with me.

Edited by Agitodesu, 24 August 2017 - 01:48 PM.

[easykill1215]

Feel like 3 second stun is good enough. Or something like 3 at level 1 and increase it by .25 after every level to 4 seconds at level 5. Removing the white screen is perfectly fine with me.

Agree with the 3s at lv1 and increase per level to 4s at final level, or it can also be 2s at lv1 and 0.5s extra per higher level so people will actually upgrade this skill n not keeping it at lv1.

Disagree for the 3s is good enough. The Flashbang skill always has an animation which is around 1 sec (the movement you throw Flashbang out until you can freely move or attack) so the duration is always around 1s less already. Also there's no factor that proves 3s is good enough without testing and 4s was what we supposed to have all the time.

[zekiel6]

white screen is part of the skill for me. try to test white screen and three or four second stun. if it still lagwalks you still can remove it. if it works there is no need to remove it. only can tell that the opponents did not lagwalk at the 1.5 stun + whitescreen. so it should work for 3 seconds + whitescreen too.

[easykill1215]

white screen is part of the skill for me. try to test white screen and three or four second stun. if it still lagwalks you still can remove it. if it works there is no need to remove it. only can tell that the opponents did not lagwalk at the 1.5 stun + whitescreen. so it should work for 3 seconds + whitescreen too.

With the last Flashbang 1.5s stun they still lagwalk. They can't move or attack in the stun duration but after the stun effect ends, lagwalk starts.
It was like this:
Enemy got hit by Flashbang => stunned and Can't move or attack for 1.5s => lagwalk for the rest 2.5s of Flashbang duration.

Sometimes it didn't lagwalk yes but most of the time it was like that so if you keep the white screen then the stun duration should be the same as Flashbang's duration so none lagwalk will happen.

[Precrush]

With the last Flashbang 1.5s stun they still lagwalk. They can't move or attack in the stun duration but after the stun effect ends, lagwalk starts.
It was like this:
Enemy got hit by Flashbang => stunned and Can't move or attack for 1.5s => lagwalk for the rest 2.5s of Flashbang duration.

Sometimes it didn't lagwalk yes but most of the time it was like that so if you keep the white screen then the stun duration should be the same as Flashbang's duration so none lagwalk will happen.

That's good logic. You'd think that works but yet the developer with years of coding experience and access to the source code says it doesn't. Go figure.

Honestly I don't think there's any point in discussing this much further since it really makes little difference either way. I say go with the option that has the least amount of issues and then we can all move on, that's my final verdict.

Edited by Precrush, 24 August 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Apocryphos]

So popcorn is able to remove the flash, but not change the flight path, Is it possible to just reuse a certain skill like h.e grenade or fire/caused bomber animation's for it's flight path?
Here's an idea let player's move around in flashbang(like a 4 second silence), But change fire grenade to stun grenade, this way the flight path is similar to h.e grenade, It won't hurt the class because the skill is superseded by N2 Ammunition. (also please be a no hit stun, so it still bypasses twin block and same duration's and cooldowns)

Edited by Apocryphos, 24 August 2017 - 10:04 PM.

[Popcorn]

So popcorn is able to remove the flash, but not change the flight path, Is it possible to just reuse a certain skill like h.e grenade or fire/caused bomber animation's for it's flight path?
 

 

That's basically correct. The flash itself is part of the animation which does not cause the problem and the flash wouldn't be removed. What would be removed is the white screen effect (fade in -> white screen -> fade out) the players can see when they're hit by the grenade.

 

I will try to explain this but I am not sure if I can explain it understandable for everyone:

 

If you throw a flash bang grenade the animation is played for all people seeing it: The one who throws it and also people surrounding the one who throws it. Everyone will see the thrower throwing the grenade and the "star"-shaped flash when the animation ends. Now we are at the point that the players who have been hit need to see the white screen effect - and this is the problem. The white screen effect is "created" by an external script which is used as a damage effect and not by the animation. The script needs to be synchronized for all players seeing the one who is hit for all enemies which have been hit by it. The problem here is that external scripts are not synchronized by the server but by the client and here it comes to the problem with different pings. Since the synchronization request from the server always has different ping times (for people living in the US region around 45~60 ms, for people from EU around 200 ms and for people from the SEA region up to 400 ms)  you surely can imagine that the synchronization of the client with this script does not work correctly.

 

Let's take this case as an example:

Someone from the US region throws a grenade. The request that the grenade is thrown reaches the server after around 30ms (because a ping is the time a request needs to be sent and answered). The client located in the US gets the request to synchronize (start) the external script after 60ms while the client located in the EU gets this request after around 130ms and someone in the SEA region might geht the request after 230ms. This results in the script on the different clients are de-synchronized which causes the "lag walk".

[easykill1215]

That's good logic. You'd think that works but yet the developer with years of coding experience and access to the source code says it doesn't. Go figure.

Honestly I don't think there's any point in discussing this much further since it really makes little difference either way. I say go with the option that has the least amount of issues and then we can all move on, that's my final verdict.

Did he say it doesn't work if they add stun effect with the duration same as Flashbang's duration? Did he say it? He only said he didn't do it last time because of some crying babies who was crying about 4s stun duration tho those people can't have an explanation why they were against it or can't point out the difference between stun effect and Flashbang effect (both effects make enemy not able to move or attack). You may have a good point but read or think carefully before you say something.

Edit: option 2 or 3 I don't care as long as the Flashbang still works as it supposed to be (enemy can't move or attack for 4s), the best option would be the one which u need less work and less trouble for it popcorn.

Edited by easykill1215, 24 August 2017 - 10:48 PM.

[Popcorn]

Did he say it doesn't work if they add stun effect with the duration same as Flashbang's duration? Did he say it? He only said he didn't do it last time because of some crying babies who was crying about 4s stun duration tho those people can't have an explanation why they were against it or can't point out the difference between stun effect and Flashbang effect (both effects make enemy not able to move or attack). You may have a good point but read or think carefully before you say something.

 

Did you read the post I just posted above of yours? I said it causes lag walk if we keep the white screen effect, because the white screen effect is what causes it (because the script is still running as long as we want to keep the white screen, stun effect or not)

 

 

 

You may have a good point but read or think carefully before you say something.

 

This is a good advice you should follow yourself first.

[Popcorn]

We have gathered enough information on that problem and the opinions of the community about it now. 

I have quoted the idea/suggestion of Apocryphos in a separate topic to give the community the chance to discuss about it because it can be overlooked by us in this topic.

 

If you want to discuss this idea it please refer to this topic:

https://forums.warpp...ternative-idea/

 

[easykill1215]

Did you read the post I just posted above of yours? I said it causes lag walk if we keep the white screen effect, because the white screen effect is what causes it (because the script is still running as long as we want to keep the white screen, stun effect or not)


This is a good advice you should follow yourself first.

Yeah my bad didn't see or read that post because of Internet inside the train

Well thanks for that clear explanation, I bet everyone can understand it easily now. But what about the stun effect? Won't it become an overlay on that external script n make enemy stay in one spot? The reason is with the last version of Flashbang 1.5s stun then lagwalk never happened in the beginning, only when the stun duration ends. I believe every destro can confirm it.

Anyway as I said above and I believe everyone won't care if it's option 2 or 3 as long as Flashbang still works how it supposed to be (enemy can't move or attack for 4s). You are the one who knows which option is the most stable and less work for you so let's just do it.

[Agitodesu]

You should look at the link popcorn sent, thats the best alternative brought up.