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Evade and block for ninja 40+


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#1 testg

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:59 AM

I think to make ninja class competitive again is to provide evade and block rate back. My idea is give ninja branch starting at level 40 10% final evade as base passive class benefit (not skill) and 5% block rate class passive. For each lvl above 40 get .5% final evade and .2% block rate. At max lvl 85 this is reasonable of 32.5% max evade and 14% final block rate. Also make block rate evade rate sc work off base amount of 10% evade and 5% blockrate to prevent heavy stacking. Would need to verify the proc mechanic of evade and block and adjust value accordingly to the mechanic. But what do you ninja think about this. The pve pvp value seem fair. If not possible to do at all or a bad idea feel free to explain why
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#2 Bustincaps

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

Bad idea. The game purposely moved away from Evade and Block because it's cancerous. Sorry if I'm coming off as rude but I feel very strongly against buffing anything that relies heavily on RNG and making people unable to hit you. I assumed everyone else did too, but then then a unicorn named testg arrives from 2009 evade era asking to reverse the best nerf this game has ever had (evade/block nerf), and only for one class...

 

Even if this idea were to be entertained, 32.5% and 14% is like WAY high lol  :bash:


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#3 NeaDCampbell

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:18 AM

I think it seems very fair since it really would mean that Ninja would be relevant again.

32.5% is very thoughtful too i mean evading 1/3 hits is exactly what a Ninja needs since the class is very weak right now in my opinion.

After all Ninja should actually focus on Agility and Evade like any other MMO.

I also dont think that it would make Ninja unbalanced compared to any other class.

Very good suggestion! I like it!

 

PS: Can i suggest to reduce the 1 Minute cooldown on Perfect Strike by at least a little bit (like make it 10 Sec cooldown)


Edited by NeaDCampbell, 26 August 2017 - 11:11 PM.

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#4 HakannBlast

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:03 AM

So random evasion is unfun but dying from random crits and from high speed high damage autos isn't 


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#5 zekiel6

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:15 AM

So random evasion is unfun but dying from random crits and from high speed high damage autos isn't 

not nice, but we dont need to make the game more worse with evade and block.


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#6 9851170220163549840

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:29 PM

So random evasion is unfun but dying from random crits and from high speed high damage autos isn't 

 

+1 to this, I actually want to see the evade rate being annoying again. Ninja should evade! not defend! :ph34r: :ph34r:


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#7 testg

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:32 PM

So random evasion is unfun but dying from random crits and from high speed high damage autos isn't

Thanks for this because it is important that rng is already in the game with a lot of skills, and critical rate and damage. Why block and evade cant be part of the game for certain class? Priest dont need block, sorc dont either. Dont focus on the number i provide but focus on idea. Even 10% evade is better than 0. Maybe 20% evade cap 10% block rate cap for ninja. 25% block rate for pally. Much better then 0. I think player forget evade was uncap then cap to 70% and still was op. But these class dont have much benefit in pack bsq or pvp. Is it really bad?
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#8 9851170220163549840

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:40 PM

^^ you are totally correct. Evade rate can still be overcome with team play in BSQ. That does not sound so OP at all. In addition, Evade rate is affected by Aim, another way to overcome it.

:Emo_16: :Emo_16:

 

Atleast people will focus more on variety of builds, not only on ATK spd.


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#9 Precrush

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:46 PM

This discussion always comes back after enough new people come on the forum :P

 

Even a 1% chance of dodge/block is worse rng than crits. This is because avoiding a catch by a lucky block could and would decide fights. So no, block and dodge should never be brought back as they were. If they were made to work a bit different then maybe.


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#10 Onyzer

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 11:03 PM

Shouldn't be added back. Plus, the Evade Rate is meaningless since if you really wanna evade a spell you dodge it, that's how Dragon Saga is, a dynamic game.


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#11 testg

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 11:09 PM

This discussion always comes back after enough new people come on the forum :P

Even a 1% chance of dodge/block is worse rng than crits. This is because avoiding a catch by a lucky block could and would decide fights. So no, block and dodge should never be brought back as they were. If they were made to work a bit different then maybe.


I deny your claim that it decide fights. Many factor in this game decide a winner. Catch with barb, air lock with aas, forzen by blizzard and snowblue for 30second. Your logic here has many flaw, it also consitute a lot of inexperience in pvp in my opinion. Right now ninja, pally, ovl, savage do not compare to mage in bsq. This is the facts.
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#12 VioletCat

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 01:26 AM

I deny your claim that it decide fights. Many factor in this game decide a winner. Catch with barb, air lock with aas, forzen by blizzard and snowblue for 30second. Your logic here has many flaw, it also consitute a lot of inexperience in pvp in my opinion. Right now ninja, pally, ovl, savage do not compare to mage in bsq. This is the facts.

 

It's true that there are many factors that can decide a winner in a rather unfair way in the game, but I don't think that means we need more of them. Air lock or being able to freeze someone for 30 seconds doesn't sound like something that makes PvP better, so I think things like that should be fixed instead of making other classes as overpowered as mages.


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#13 testg

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 02:16 AM


It's true that there are many factors that can decide a winner in a rather unfair way in the game, but I don't think that means we need more of them. Air lock or being able to freeze someone for 30 seconds doesn't sound like something that makes PvP better, so I think things like that should be fixed instead of making other classes as overpowered as mages.

I think if popcorn choose to implement back evade it will be as fair as possible as he think. If he choose not then its never happen no problem. I think u have automatically assume its op, maybe remnant of old ds where evade ninja had invincibility on 100%. pvp topic is all opinions really. But i wonder if value was 5% evade max u think this it is still op? It would not help at all vs 5x sorc lock and i am not complain about sorc at all other then bsq deathbuff. I am really wondering if anyone has better to argue back then saying no. Please debate.

**Also be glad if u can be frozen for 30 sec and not die.

Edited by testg, 27 August 2017 - 02:17 AM.

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#14 VioletCat

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:32 AM

Well, my point against it is at least that I would avoid anything that has to do with adding more randomness to PvP. As long as it's fair and not overpowered I wouldn't mind of course, but I have no idea how that could be done for evade and block rate. I'm not sure how 5% max would affect the game since I haven't even played a lot back then when those stats actually worked. If I had the chance to test it in-game then I'd be able to tell if it's still too much. But if it's not enough to make a significant difference then how would it even be useful to implement it? And if it makes a big difference then we get back to the point that it's too luck-dependent. That's just my opinion of course, as you said.

 

Also I don't think I said I can survive 30 seconds of being frozen against someone who deals decent damage or in group PvP, pretty sure no one can  :Emo_17: That's why it shouldn't be possible in the first place. Unless you mean being frozen by several people in BSQ, but that shouldn't be a problem since you have teammates to help you escape.


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#15 testg

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:50 AM

Well, my point against it is at least that I would avoid anything that has to do with adding more randomness to PvP. As long as it's fair and not overpowered I wouldn't mind of course, but I have no idea how that could be done for evade and block rate. I'm not sure how 5% max would affect the game since I haven't even played a lot back then when those stats actually worked. If I had the chance to test it in-game then I'd be able to tell if it's still too much. But if it's not enough to make a significant difference then how would it even be useful to implement it? And if it makes a big difference then we get back to the point that it's too luck-dependent. That's just my opinion of course, as you said.

Also I don't think I said I can survive 30 seconds of being frozen against someone who deals decent damage or in group PvP, pretty sure no one can :Emo_17: That's why it shouldn't be possible in the first place. Unless you mean being frozen by several people in BSQ, but that shouldn't be a problem since you have teammates to help you escape.

Well said. Nice to see you explain your reasoning. I think If explore properly i think evade can work that is my point. It has been a long time since anyone mention evade that i think it is swept under the rug. I think if maybe get rid of aim it is almost nonexistent or influencial anyway, and bring back evade to small amount like 15-30% or so then the calculation work out without the aim factor and simply chance of evade/ block.

If exclusive to this ninja class then it is controlled, not like back then with knight evade and block. Or priest with evade, or senti with evade. Previously the evade work off agi influence, this was a issue and should not be the case if reimplemented but as standalone stat with no influence by agi or much gear.

I think many things went wrong when korean dev focus on too many calculation of stat and things. Example is mdef v mattk, pdef v p attk, ele resis vs attk, agi vs aim and evade, etc. i hope i am not confusing, but to me this seem very true.

Edited by testg, 27 August 2017 - 04:02 AM.

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#16 easykill1215

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 04:15 AM

Ninja is not bad in 1v1 pvp, it's only bad in group pvp because ninja's playstyle in crowded pvp is outplayed by other crowded pvp oriented classes with many helpful skills like involker, sorc, summy and senti. Ninja doesn't have much/Doesnt really have useful skills to support teammates.

Every classes has their own role and playstyle so the idea to balance the dmg was quite bad. And so ninja isn't that bad in 1v1 pvp just not OP like the old time with evade. So by adding around 30% more evade means making it 30% tankier also makes enemy having hard time to catch. Imagine you normally start combo with a cc skill and then u see "miss" when it supposed to be successed to let you start your combo.

Summary: 30% more evade = 30% tankier + can dodge being caught or can escape people's combo easily => OP => disagree since ninja isn't really that bad in 1v1. Same to 20%
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#17 FujiwaraKaito

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 04:59 AM

well, class balancing is always the utmost concern for every players and developers. else if it doesnt, hugh outroars of complaints are going to happen continuously. and yet, when the class balancing is in placed, being unable to accustomed to the fix due to being so called "op" for some time, complaints come again. 


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#18 testg

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 05:15 AM

Ninja is not bad in 1v1 pvp, it's only bad in group pvp because ninja's playstyle in crowded pvp is outplayed by other crowded pvp oriented classes with many helpful skills like involker, sorc, summy and senti. Ninja doesn't have much/Doesnt really have useful skills to support teammates.

Every classes has their own role and playstyle so the idea to balance the dmg was quite bad. And so ninja isn't that bad in 1v1 pvp just not OP like the old time with evade. So by adding around 30% more evade means making it 30% tankier also makes enemy having hard time to catch. Imagine you normally start combo with a cc skill and then u see "miss" when it supposed to be successed to let you start your combo.

Summary: 30% more evade = 30% tankier + can dodge being caught or can escape people's combo easily => OP => disagree since ninja isn't really that bad in 1v1. Same to 20%

Its true ninja doesnt have many useful skill in group pvp. So then let take out evade from the equation. How would u make ninja better for group pvp with balancing pve? You made me think of maybe buffing certain skill like 'sleep' and 'april fool' and 'shadow walk'

You can change shadow walk with duration instead of toggle.

Sleep can be needed 20% hp reduction in hp or 5 second duration before waking up.

April fool duration aoe increase and increase duration.

Edited by testg, 27 August 2017 - 05:15 AM.

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#19 zekiel6

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 07:07 AM

ninjas were always good in bsq but in a time where you actually dealt significant damage. the damage ninjas are dealing compared to mage classes is ridiculous. ninja never had big aoe control but high enough damage to kill one - two people fast enough in BSQ. with todays crazy HP amounts, low skill damage and crowded bsqs ninjas lost their role.


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#20 Precrush

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 08:54 AM

I deny your claim that it decide fights. Many factor in this game decide a winner. Catch with barb, air lock with aas, forzen by blizzard and snowblue for 30second. Your logic here has many flaw, it also consitute a lot of inexperience in pvp in my opinion. Right now ninja, pally, ovl, savage do not compare to mage in bsq. This is the facts.

 

 

I think if popcorn choose to implement back evade it will be as fair as possible as he think. If he choose not then its never happen no problem. I think u have automatically assume its op, maybe remnant of old ds where evade ninja had invincibility on 100%. pvp topic is all opinions really. But i wonder if value was 5% evade max u think this it is still op? It would not help at all vs 5x sorc lock and i am not complain about sorc at all other then bsq deathbuff. I am really wondering if anyone has better to argue back then saying no. Please debate.

**Also be glad if u can be frozen for 30 sec and not die.

 

Sure many factors decide who wins (I never said otherwise), but not many of those are as random as dodge and block. I find it funny you're accusing others of bad argumentation and while answering me like you did. You basically just said "you're wrong and bad at pvp"...

 

5% evade rate would not be op, but it sure would be annoying. And it wouldn't make anything more balanced. This is not a numbers issue.

 

As I tried to say during my 2 years here I've seen this conversation at least a handful of times, so no it's not left forgotten for a long time. I'm quite sure that if old evade and block systems would be coming back they would've already, but people don't want them so they haven't. I've presented this alternative before: make block and evade only resist the damage, not the effects (stuns, knock ups, freezes and so on...). That would basically make it another plain attack (aim) vs defense (dodge/block) system. The only problem is we already have 2 systems like that, the normal damage system and the element system. And both of those aren't working too well (I would say broken but that would imply that they aren't working as intended).

 

And no the problem with the old system wasn't that everybody could get it. The problem was that the effect was too strong. The only reason I want those stats back in some form is so that all classes have more build choices and stats to increase. I also don't see any point in adding more evade from levels over skills and gear giving that edge for the fitting classes.


Edited by Precrush, 27 August 2017 - 08:56 AM.

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