14 replies to this topic

[NamzaKaren]

Our server doesn't have snake hat yet. For autoattack, what do you think about putting sidewinder card into infiltrator? Or is Hydra/The Paper Card better? Btw, I can get 21 crit (40 with katar) with 1 luk and no buff.

Edited by NamzaKaren, 02 September 2017 - 09:24 PM.

[Ignasia]

2x damage + 1.4x about 40% of the time in between double-attacks, meaning 50% double attacks 20% crits 30% normal hits,

versus 1.4*1.2 = 1.68x damage at 40% of the time and 60% normal hits.

 

Assuming 300 damage per hit average, over the course of 10 hits:

 

Assuming you encounter no crit shield, and average crit rate:

Sidewinder = 300*2*5 + 300*1.4*2 + 300*3 = 4740

Paper = 300*1.68*4 + 300*6 = 3816

 

Nevermind the difference with Crit Shield will reduce overall critical output by reducing critical rates, but never affect double attack damage rates.

 

Infiltrator [1] with a hydra is ultimately better for skill damage, in this case Sonic Blow, which is meh in Renewal mechanics without a Linker and Sonic Acceleration (not sure how far ahead your other server is).

 

w/ Paper is better if you have a double attack option through alternative means (Snake or Chick Hat).

 

Given your situation, Luck and overall critical hit rate, and if you're aiming for autoattack, then Sidewinder is infinitely superior for overall DPS.  Afterall, between double attacks you'll get quite a few critical hits, overall increasing your general damage output.

Edited by Ignasia, 02 September 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[DFreak423]

Chick Hat is another option if your server has it. It's only lv 2 double attack which isn't good for other classes, but for thief classes it's fine.

[NamzaKaren]

2x damage + 1.4x about 40% of the time in between double-attacks, meaning 50% double attacks 20% crits 30% normal hits,

versus 1.4*1.2 = 1.68x damage at 40% of the time and 60% normal hits.

 

Assuming 300 damage per hit average, over the course of 10 hits:

 

Assuming you encounter no crit shield, and average crit rate:

Sidewinder = 300*2*5 + 300*1.4*2 + 300*3 = 4740

Paper = 300*1.68*4 + 300*6 = 3816

 

Nevermind the difference with Crit Shield will reduce overall critical output by reducing critical rates, but never affect double attack damage rates.

 

Infiltrator [1] with a hydra is ultimately better for skill damage, in this case Sonic Blow, which is meh in Renewal mechanics without a Linker and Sonic Acceleration (not sure how far ahead your other server is).

 

w/ Paper is better if you have a double attack option through alternative means (Snake or Chick Hat).

 

Given your situation, Luck and overall critical hit rate, and if you're aiming for autoattack, then Sidewinder is infinitely superior for overall DPS.  Afterall, between double attacks you'll get quite a few critical hits, overall increasing your general damage output.

- So even if I have 50 crit (100 w/ katar) Sidewinder will yield more damage than The Paper?

- Anyone know the Gloria proc chance of Puppy Hat?

- Which do you think is better between Puppy Hat (autocast Gloria when attacking), Hair Brush (Crit +6), Alice Doll Hat (+10% damage vs Demi Human)?

 

btw our server already have all the 2-2 class and most platinum skills except Homunculus.

 

Chick Hat is another option if your server has it. It's only lv 2 double attack which isn't good for other classes, but for thief classes it's fine.

We don't have it either.

[Ignasia]

Hmm...50 natural crit rating?  I don't know, I'll reuse the example above of 300 average base damage.

 

Over the course of 10 hits:

 

Assuming you encounter no crit shield:

Sidewinder = 300*2*5 + 300*1.4*5 = 5100

Paper = 300*1.68*10 = 5040

 

Sidewinder is still on top, but not by much.  Nevermind the benefits of Critical attacks never missing without PD or Crit Shield (monster luck).  In case you're curious, if you use a normal Katar [2], Paper x2 is better than a Sidewinder + Paper around 80 total critical rating, and a 2x Hydra versus Hydra + sidewinder, the latter always wins out, even at 100 crit.

 

Puppy Hat is 1% unless you have 77 Base AGI, then it's a 3% proc chance.

 

Ok, 2-2, but no expanded classes yet.

 

Puppy Hat would be better than the Hairbrush (9 -> 18, versus 6 -> 12, even though it's a proc chance and not a fixed rate, 77 Base AGI is a decent minimum for any Auto-attack build of Assassin, and 3% is a relatively high % value).  Versus Alice Doll?  Wow...that's a rough calculation, since I'd have to factor an actual build and damage output, that's a lot of maths to work out, but it is pretty universal, and it would affect damage output per hit.  In a natural crit build, or one where you have a gloria priest, Alice Doll would be preferable.  For a sonic blow build, Alice Doll is far and away preferable, though I forget what types of cards affect Grimtooth damage.  So I'd say Alice Doll is more universal in application.

[Ashuckel]

If you can have 100% crit rate, a single paper will surpass the sidewinder al day.

Sidewinder will enable DA10, wich is 50% chance to deal 100% extra damage (wich isnt a true +100% damage, since only mainhand hit is doubled). **

 

If you average it out, every other attack proccing DA, you will have about 150% damage per hit (100%>200%>100%>200%>etc)


Since crits do a base of 140% of the attack damage, and crit dmg% will multiply this, you have 1,4*1,2= 1,68. With a 100% crit rate, every hit does 168% of their regular damage, every time. 

Opposite to DA, this will affect offhand as well, wich pushes the difference a little more.

 

 

 

**Offhand hits for 25% of mainhand damage, DA not affecting it means your total damage on a DA proc is increased by actually 80%, And if you average it out, it's a steady +40% dmg over the course of a fight.

[NamzaKaren]

Hmm...50 natural crit rating?  I don't know, I'll reuse the example above of 300 average base damage.

 

Over the course of 10 hits:

 

Assuming you encounter no crit shield:

Sidewinder = 300*2*5 + 300*1.4*5 = 5100

Paper = 300*1.68*10 = 5040

 

Sidewinder is still on top, but not by much.  Nevermind the benefits of Critical attacks never missing without PD or Crit Shield (monster luck).  In case you're curious, if you use a normal Katar [2], Paper x2 is better than a Sidewinder + Paper around 80 total critical rating, and a 2x Hydra versus Hydra + sidewinder, the latter always wins out, even at 100 crit.

 

Puppy Hat is 1% unless you have 77 Base AGI, then it's a 3% proc chance.

 

Ok, 2-2, but no expanded classes yet.

 

Puppy Hat would be better than the Hairbrush (9 -> 18, versus 6 -> 12, even though it's a proc chance and not a fixed rate, 77 Base AGI is a decent minimum for any Auto-attack build of Assassin, and 3% is a relatively high % value).  Versus Alice Doll?  Wow...that's a rough calculation, since I'd have to factor an actual build and damage output, that's a lot of maths to work out, but it is pretty universal, and it would affect damage output per hit.  In a natural crit build, or one where you have a gloria priest, Alice Doll would be preferable.  For a sonic blow build, Alice Doll is far and away preferable, though I forget what types of cards affect Grimtooth damage.  So I'd say Alice Doll is more universal in application.

Wow. thanks for the detailed answer.

 

Not natural crit. 20 crit from two Neo Critical Ring (Rental) and 30 from Abrasive (daily login reward, but it's only possible get 20 ea per month).

 

But I guess I'll wait til they implement Snake/Chick Hat before putting a Sidewinder Card to infiltrator.

Edited by NamzaKaren, 04 September 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[Ignasia]

If you can have 100% crit rate, a single paper will surpass the sidewinder al day.

Sidewinder will enable DA10, wich is 50% chance to deal 100% extra damage (wich isnt a true +100% damage, since only mainhand hit is doubled). **

 

If you average it out, every other attack proccing DA, you will have about 150% damage per hit (100%>200%>100%>200%>etc)


Since crits do a base of 140% of the attack damage, and crit dmg% will multiply this, you have 1,4*1,2= 1,68. With a 100% crit rate, every hit does 168% of their regular damage, every time. 

Opposite to DA, this will affect offhand as well, wich pushes the difference a little more.

 

 

 

**Offhand hits for 25% of mainhand damage, DA not affecting it means your total damage on a DA proc is increased by actually 80%, And if you average it out, it's a steady +40% dmg over the course of a fight.

 

Oops...totally forgot to factor in backhand.  Yeah, that actually does make a minor impact, but enough of one to make a difference.

 

Thanks Ashuckle.  Doing a rough check on total damage, Infiltrator [Sidewinder] versus Infiltrator [Paper] seems to be around 86~87% crit, so fair to say 85% crit is when they're about equal and any value beyond favours the Paper.

[NamzaKaren]

If you can have 100% crit rate, a single paper will surpass the sidewinder al day.

Sidewinder will enable DA10, wich is 50% chance to deal 100% extra damage (wich isnt a true +100% damage, since only mainhand hit is doubled). **

 

If you average it out, every other attack proccing DA, you will have about 150% damage per hit (100%>200%>100%>200%>etc)


Since crits do a base of 140% of the attack damage, and crit dmg% will multiply this, you have 1,4*1,2= 1,68. With a 100% crit rate, every hit does 168% of their regular damage, every time. 

Opposite to DA, this will affect offhand as well, wich pushes the difference a little more.

 

 

 

**Offhand hits for 25% of mainhand damage, DA not affecting it means your total damage on a DA proc is increased by actually 80%, And if you average it out, it's a steady +40% dmg over the course of a fight.

Oops...totally forgot to factor in backhand.  Yeah, that actually does make a minor impact, but enough of one to make a difference.

 

Thanks Ashuckle.  Doing a rough check on total damage, Infiltrator [Sidewinder] versus Infiltrator [Paper] seems to be around 86~87% crit, so fair to say 85% crit is when they're about equal and any value beyond favours the Paper.

 

Thank you guys for answering my questions.

 

Since it's possible to achieve 50 crit (100 with katar) with 60 luk, Puppy Hat (Gloria), and two Neo Critical Rings, I'll go with critical build.

 

My final build

str 70

agi 90

luk 50+40 (food and gloria)

vit ??

dex 1

int 1

 

Can anyone recommend a good number for vit?

 

We have Popping Candy (+25% aspd) and Akareje (+10% aspd), you can use them together (+35% aspd). That's why I wanna try a full autoattack build.

Edited by NamzaKaren, 05 September 2017 - 04:47 AM.

[6281170818170615897]

If you can have 100% crit rate, a single paper will surpass the sidewinder al day.

Sidewinder will enable DA10, wich is 50% chance to deal 100% extra damage (wich isnt a true +100% damage, since only mainhand hit is doubled). **

 

If you average it out, every other attack proccing DA, you will have about 150% damage per hit (100%>200%>100%>200%>etc)


Since crits do a base of 140% of the attack damage, and crit dmg% will multiply this, you have 1,4*1,2= 1,68. With a 100% crit rate, every hit does 168% of their regular damage, every time. 

Opposite to DA, this will affect offhand as well, wich pushes the difference a little more.

 

 

 

**Offhand hits for 25% of mainhand damage, DA not affecting it means your total damage on a DA proc is increased by actually 80%, And if you average it out, it's a steady +40% dmg over the course of a fight.

 

The problem with crit sins in Re:start is the lack of items, lower level cap, and transcendent 2nd and 3rd classes. Crit sins work just as well as they did in classic, but there are better options now.

With 60 luk and 2 Kobold cards you have 58% crit.  70str / 88agi / 1vit / 1int / 1dex / 60luk leaves you 158 points at 99. 2x Soldier Skel Katar puts you at 94 crit. As such, you can't even think about "The Paper" card at high levels on Re:start because there are no card slots. It requires too much investment in LUK to overcome crit shield. This is why everyone used 3x SS carded Jurs in the original days of the crit sin. Sidewinder card would have still produced better results, but people didn't seem aware of that build at that time. Crit sins will have their time to shine, but that time is not today.

 

You can't mob with grim tooth because you have no hit. Crit shield destroys your chances of hitting mobs like Anolian.

 

In contrast, you could use a "hybrid" DA Katar crit sin. 71str / 90agi / 30vit / 1int / 52dex / 33luk You get far better return on stat investment. Higher damage output on pretty much everything due to card flexibility.

 

What crit sins need in order to excel in "modern" RO is more stat points to allow for investment into Luck and more crit items. Crits overtake DA Katar at some point when your crit and crit multiplier is high enough without sacrificing hit chance. Once you have enough crit to break crit shield then you no longer need dex, but you need available weapon card slots to run these beefy crit cards like "The Paper" or Mobster.

Edited by 6281170818170615897, 05 September 2017 - 05:16 AM.

[Ashuckel]

He already said he is not playing on Re:Start, and he has access to gears that give him the crit rate needed.

[6281170818170615897]

He already said he is not playing on Re:Start, and he has access to gears that give him the crit rate needed.

 

All I read was "our server" and he's posting on the Re:start forum.

[Ashuckel]

Our server doesn't have snake hat yet. 

 

 

- Which do you think is better between Puppy Hat (autocast Gloria when attacking), Hair Brush (Crit +6), Alice Doll Hat (+10% damage vs Demi Human)?

 

btw our server already have all the 2-2 class and most platinum skills except Homunculus.

 

We don't have it either.

 

 

Not natural crit. 20 crit from two Neo Critical Ring (Rental) and 30 from Abrasive (daily login reward, but it's only possible get 20 ea per month).

 

But I guess I'll wait til they implement Snake/Chick Hat before putting a Sidewinder Card to infiltrator.

[6281170818170615897]

 

I skimmed all of this, but made a post that is relevant to Re:start, for people reading this on the Re:start forums.

[NamzaKaren]

The problem with crit sins in Re:start is the lack of items, lower level cap, and transcendent 2nd and 3rd classes. Crit sins work just as well as they did in classic, but there are better options now.

With 60 luk and 2 Kobold cards you have 58% crit.  70str / 88agi / 1vit / 1int / 1dex / 60luk leaves you 158 points at 99. 2x Soldier Skel Katar puts you at 94 crit. As such, you can't even think about "The Paper" card at high levels on Re:start because there are no card slots. It requires too much investment in LUK to overcome crit shield. This is why everyone used 3x SS carded Jurs in the original days of the crit sin. Sidewinder card would have still produced better results, but people didn't seem aware of that build at that time. Crit sins will have their time to shine, but that time is not today.

 

You can't mob with grim tooth because you have no hit. Crit shield destroys your chances of hitting mobs like Anolian.

 

In contrast, you could use a "hybrid" DA Katar crit sin. 71str / 90agi / 30vit / 1int / 52dex / 33luk You get far better return on stat investment. Higher damage output on pretty much everything due to card flexibility.

 

What crit sins need in order to excel in "modern" RO is more stat points to allow for investment into Luck. Crits overtake DA Katar at some point when your crit and crit multiplier is high enough without sacrificing hit chance. Once you have enough crit to break crit shield then you no longer need dex, but you need available weapon card slots to run these beefy crit cards like "The Paper" or Mobster.

 

I play in idRO and we have items that allow us to get 30 crit from equipment only, with 60 luk it becomes 50 crit. It only takes me and my team 15 hours to leech-level any class from 1-99, so I don't need grimtooth to mob. I just want to autoattack in PvP and WoE. XD