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Meta Discussion: Issues you find with your class and improvements


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#1 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:33 AM

Sup guys. Been having a blast since returning and I’ve been thinking about class balance in general.

Many games have frequent discussions of what class is meta and what issues are hovering around the weaker classes. This is especially prevalent in MOBA games today as balance is extremely important for a game to thrive. What’s funny is that i’ve never actually seen anything like this being openly discussed on our forums before, even if we knew specifically that “omg gene is OP, GX is OP” etc. A open discussion can allow developers as well as our server moderaters to better see the games balance which can and will make the game more attractive for players in the long run.Knowing that we will almost never see nerfs in the current state of game anymore, seeing huge buffs in the right place is a good thing to look forward, even if our player base is small.

I myself have a ton of crap to talk about the rune knight class so that’s what i focus on, but im sure some of you have real legit things to say about your class too (i did voice my opinion on some of them but it’s just my inexperienced opinions so you may pay them no heed if it’s disagreed).

You may add on to the relevant class below with your name, or do it whatever way you want. Please keep this constructive and civilized, thank you.

3rd classes:
1. Rune Knight (improving physical damage aspect)
Blackcross:
A fall from grace from our past pre-renewal overlord- the Lordknight; has two vastly different builds: DB and Physical.

DB RK

DB has been strong when properly geared since the very first iteration from renewal and has barely changed (only range modifier added). However, for all but the richest of all players (tao+kiel’s), DB RK’s dps output for most players when playing solo is highly limited due to the skills long after cast delay and fixed elements. This makes them highly niche due to their extreme attractiveness for party plays but generally less stellar performance in solo plays for non MVP players.

 

Gears that reduce aftercast delay that has been implemented is doing great for most DB players without MVPs and i feel its in the right direction for further release. A semi tao card (something like +30-40%HP in armour?) effect will eventually be great as well to allow for players to have an increase QoL in instances without undermining the power of real MVP tao for those that put in the hard money or effort for them. We’ve been stuck with peco card for a decade now if it’s not obvious.

 

Physical RK
Physical RK on the other hand, used to be complained about when renewal was just released as players complained about OP spiral pierce and even storm blast, mainly in PVP/WOE context. Both skills got nerfed hard, and as we look at them now it seems kinda silly because PVP is dead and these skills even at their prime wouldn’t hold a candle to many skills’ dps output.

 

Since the nerfs, physical RKs remain as a dead class for competent players for years due to the lack of any actually worthwhile and spammable skills. Wind cutter is junk with 2 seconds cd on a weak 350% modifier, sonic wave is another junk skill despite its 1000% base modifier due to a split 1 sec cd and 1 sec after delay, leaving us with only bowling bash- nerfed to oblivion in iRO due to abuse, and Ignition break, which has a decent aoe but has a long 2 seconds CD.

 

Physical RKs also basically have zero real role in any parties despite being the face of the game in many marketing materials holding a nice sword (real players will know that it is useless). Its only saving grace was to build crit to emulate GX due to their ability to reach high aspd easily as well as the random chance to do 3x damage. However, even with all these, the dps dealt is nowhere near close to what GX can do (for players with equal gear, 1/5th of the damage done is a good comparison).

 

As a solo class today, physical RK is relatively okay in instances despite the huge flaws spoken due to their natural tankiness as well as power of crits coupled with buffs from runestones even if they end up being only a fraction of GX’s output (this eventually leads to point on how GXs thus have an extremely strong easy time with almost all game contents instance wise) . Lastly, we talk about the power of rune stones. Most of these are selfbuffs except for storm blast and Crush strike, whereby storm blast has long since become useless after its initial nerf, while crush strike has a long 30 seconds cool down while even breaking your weapon- in additional to a situation where most RKs has no reliable unbreakable weapon to pair it with. The implementation of bio 5 headgear has since improved the quality of life for the physical rune knight, but has not changed its ranking amongst the classes as the improvement on others is equally strong while issues with RK is unchanged.

 

Mitigation done by other servers: kRO implemented Runestone improvement that vastly improved the power of rune stones, allowing RKs to hit about 1/2th of GX’s dps while bringing stormblast back into the game. jRO has entirely remodelled windcutter into a pretty-looking spammable skill, as well as entirely removing crush strike’s cool down. An accessible unbreakable sword is also implemented for rune knights to enjoy a higher quality of life while using runes. Any plans for implementation of these coming in iRO will inevitably make me happy. I’m personally hoping for devs to eventually remove sonic wave’s fixed 1sec cd so it will allow physical RKs to have a role in party as an additional dps while in strings. This also offers absolutely nothing OP in all situations.

 

2. Royal Guard (IMO the only class i feel is strong without being overly OP due to availability of strong AOE and spammable skills (cannon spear and OB for AOE, Vanishing Point for spam) coupled with high tankiness. Huge crit damage from Exceed Break without fixed CD but instead has long cast time so that it has potential to be insanely good after being properly geared. Lastly, inspiration is a strong buff that comes with an appropriate drawback. I will leave the pro RG players to talk about real areas for improvement though)

 

ChakriGuard:

https://forums.warpp...ents/?p=2722423

(In short they are great jack of all trades).

3. Guillotine Cross (many will say way too strong and need no targeted attention and i agree, but WOE is an area that they could look for improvements without further making them more obscene than others.)

 

Ashuckel

Reducing the aftercast delay on Dark Illusion, Increase the block chance from Weapon Blocking(bring it to be similar to Parry) and make it behave like the mentioned. (WB hard stucks your character, while Parry grts smoothened with higher aspd). 
 

4. Shadow Chaser (several jRO related items have been provided which i feel has jacked up SC’s playability for instances)

Usurper:
Yeah jRO gears gave them the ability of clearing instances conveniently and faster but still lack support skills for parties in PvM.

 

Personally I think a little boost on PvM skills might make a big change on how others see SCs as party mates:

 

1.) Dimension Door -  Make this skill work a bit like G. Fly Wings (Only downside is it's not instant and characters would need to move to DD's cell to be able to teleport)

 

2.) Invisibility - Make the skill toggle-able, giving the SC the ability to turn this skill on/off would be a great improvement. (Not really sure how this would help the party in PvM but still a nice and reasonable change.)

 

The future update allowing Auto-spell to work with bows is definitely a nice improvement but still doesn't help in parties. (blackcross: random G.fly wings seems like a cool idea and fits their concept perfectly lol. Wonder if its hard to implement. Anyway, Auto-spell on bows actually seems legitly strong even in parties as auto-spelling AOE spells will definitely make them strong enough as ranged AOE dps with our mixed jRO gears on kRO mechanics here (magician gloves and lunar moon to be exact). It's a good thing to look forward to.)

5. Arch Bishop (Not too sure, but some support for adoramus maybe?)

6. Sura (support brought in from jRO items)

7. Warlock (used to be in same situation as physical RK, but jRO’s love from OCP has now elevated them to join (almost actually) the ranks of god tier with gene and GX. A good example of buffing done right and I hope this happens to physical RKs too)

Kusanagisama

Just implement Brasilis and Moskovia cards and we're good to go. 
Also, if we can achieve 100% MDEF bypass while freeing the upper headgear slot and not depending on the shield to combo with a weapon card, it would also be great, by making 2-handed staves alive again.
 

8. Sorcerer

Svoike:

More hindsight-based skills. Its currently only spell fist.
 
And maybe like a hocus-pocus-skill for the 3rd classes. But not anymore so dramatic like the orginal skill. (Nerfs,woe disabled,chaos)
 
asperatus
Absolutely no synergy at all, between hindsight, spellfist and aoe casting 
Spellfist itself has glaring design issues. The way of recharging is clunky, it punishes having a lot of cast reduction from gear/stats, pretty much forces to max study yet study itself is of little use for spellfister  - requires major redesign
 
summons, while useful in general, perish quickly. Which is a problem, since summoning them over and over is out of question because of the weigth of elemental stones. - introduce homunculus mechanics to summons (allowing to resurrect/vaporise summon), elemental stones serving only as a way of changing the avaiable summon
 
summons' skills lack buff timer which would make player able to see when effects are going to end
 
insignias, even bugfixed, aren't going to see a lot of usage outside of mvp scenarios due to long cooldown - cut cooldown in half
 
elemental shield carries a heavy disadvantage(losing summon) while providing a mediocre advantage (party wide safety wall is nothing amazing) - change it so summon no longer disappears after using it 
 
pretty much no access to crowd control outside pvp areas
 
 

9. Ranger
Nirvanna21:

I would love MVPs to not teleport when sniping from cliffs or while stuck in traps, particularly that last bit. It literally makes binding traps useless outside of instances. (blackcross: I think might be OP but making them not teleport and instead have a reduced active duration (that isnt zero lol) seems like it would make it great.)
 
fuyukikun:
Buff fire trap to have aspd based spamability!
Buff ice trap to have similar spamability to fire trp!
Buff bomb cluster to be able to put under target feet!
(tdlr: more trap ranger support.)
 

10. Minstrel/Wanderer

11. Mechanic

12. Genetic

Others:
1. Rebel
2. Kagerou/Oboro
3. Taekwon Kid
4. Super Novice
5. Doram


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 11 October 2017 - 11:53 AM.

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#2 YongkySH

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 03:59 PM

Wall of text :p_swt:

 

Maybe add some paragraph for better reading


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#3 Nirvanna21

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:06 PM

I would love MVPs to not teleport when sniping from cliffs or while stuck in traps, particularly that last bit. It literally makes binding traps useless outside of instances.


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#4 Svoike

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:14 PM

8. Sorcerer
 

 

 

 

More hindsight-based skills. Its currently only spell fist.

 

And maybe like a hocus-pocus-skill for the 3rd classes. But not anymore so dramatic like the orginal skill. (Nerfs,woe disabled,chaos)


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#5 bgmds

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:19 PM

ranger doesn’t have issues, but it is issues itself.
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#6 Nirvanna21

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:20 PM

ranger doesn’t have issues, but it is issues itself.

 

Why?


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#7 Mosu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:24 PM

Why?

Cause reasons that you've so far lied to me about hearing news about today ;)


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#8 Nirvanna21

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:25 PM

Cause reasons that you've so far lied to me about hearing news about today ;)

 

I don't lie :P


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#9 Hissis

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:29 PM

pvm meta  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:


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#10 4853121207141913140

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:34 PM

isn't the meta all about spamming consumables

from stacking buffs, spamming potions

yggs, tokens, speed potions

 

that's why i think ab's aren't a need anymore, the best ab can do is reduce consumable costs.

and i think that's boring.

 

edit: nani ga teamplay

I think the thing that would drastically change a lot on the meta will be the introduction of more "Reduce Fixed Cast by flat amount" gears.

but there's a lot of discussion on that too i think


Edited by 4853121207141913140, 10 October 2017 - 07:02 PM.

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#11 ChaoticRK

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:56 PM

Meta? The only meta I know so far is don't forget to bring token.
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#12 BlackMeow

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:36 PM

buff GX. remove cooldown of dark illusion! :heh:


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#13 aentunei

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:48 PM

buff priest..they have buffs too
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#14 fuyukikun

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:04 PM

Buff fire trap to have aspd based spamability!
Buff ice trap to have similar spamability to fire trp!
Buff bomb cluster to be able to put under target feet!
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#15 ChakriGuard

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:07 PM

Disclaimer: "I'm just a random refugee who have never graduated from a military academy but I've fought with many gangsters long enough to know how to survive in a real battle". I'm not a pro. I just play RG long enough to know how to WoE with this class and outsmart other classes.

 

I cant say how OP RG is because I only play RG. I dont play other classes so I dont have sufficient data to compare to RG. What I'll be saying is very limted and it will be sorely based on my RG WoE experiences.

 

tl;dr, RG is a jack of all trades. He doesnt excel in any aspect but he is capable of every aspect. He can definitely do almost any game aspects from PvM to PvP to WoE and very versatile. 

 

WoE

 

We all know that most people play full support RG and people believe RG is meant to sacrifice other people. I've rarely played FS, however, I wont be covering this part. Is it OP? It seems OP, otherwise people wont play FS. Although what I'll be discussing is how I played offensive Crit EB RG in WoE. The video summarizes my Crit EB RG.

 

 

Is this build invincible? Definitely no. I cant count how many times I killed another Crit EB RGs in WoE back when I was still active. It may looks OP from ignorant eyes but when you play this build long enough, you will know all the weaknesses and how easy it is to shut down. Again like I said, both FS RG and Crit EB/OB RG is fine in WoE, not too powerful, not too weak.

 

From my perspectives, Crit EB RG is not overly powerful. In fact when I started off my Crit EB build back in 2012, I was a lone freak as everyone kept telling me to play FS. As stubborn as I was, I never listened to any of them. What I'm saying is that if it was truly powerful, many knowledgeable veterans would of been using this build way before me.

 

WoE is dead but if anyone still has problems with Crit EB RGs in WoE, you can pm me. You will be surprised how easy to shut down/kill/survive them and make a fool of them.

 

 

(starts at 1:30)

 

People who have watched this video may say that, a Crit EB RG can kill average-geared players with just Eden gears. This is true but it is an unfair comparison because my specialty is ... well a Crit EB RG and I'd tried many different builds. I cant remember how many times I've changed my stats and skill trees. Any class, when a player puts enough love and passion, it can be very good.

 

To sum it up: Crit EB RG is like Ursa in RO2. I'm just going to leave it here.

 

PvM

 

I'll summarize into 2 builds: VP/CS/OB and Crit EB

 

We all know the most powerful PvM classes are probably Gen and GX (not a surprise why they are doing not so well in WoE). RG might not be on the top best but it is definitely not on the low percentile. There are instances RG can do and some that RG cant do. I was surprised in fact when I started using Cannon spear and many people PM'ed me and questioned me a lot about this strange skill. No one was using it and I dont blame them. RG is a jack of all trades. It can do everything but it doesnt excel any. He doesnt shrine in PvM.

 

Cannon spear highlight

 

 

In fact, only Str boots and FAW Perfect EA is alright enough

 

With this introduction of a Casket of Protection, Cannon spear has gained much love and people start to be interested in this versatile class. I would not say Cannon spear right now is broken. It used to be good. Now it is decently strong even without Megs.

 

i) VP/OB build -> VP/CS + OB build

     This build is a classic PvM RG. Yes VP with Inspiration. In fact OB is quite garbage if you dont have String/Kiels. In fact the only reason I started using Cannon spear back in 2013 was because I didnt like OB but I needed to have an AoE skill somehow to level. That's when I gave Cannon spear a try and it worked out ... wonderfully. I never used OB ever since. My PvM build changed from VP only to VP/CS + OB which means I only use OB very occasionally or only when I have String with me. This build is not so good in Bio 5.

 

 

ii) Crit EB build (which is just my WoE build)

     This build is only good for killing some MvPs and it is alright for Bio 5. This is because Bio 5 is normally not heavily mobbed. I think Bio 5 is the only place for you to use Crit EB build outside WoE. I believe at this point most people here already have watched my Crit EB build on Bio 5

 

Too much more information to cover. I will just leave it here. I used to write up a long bible about WoE RG. I'm not going to go over that again hahaha

 

 


Edited by ChakriGuard, 10 October 2017 - 09:10 PM.

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#16 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:13 PM

Great post Chakri, I will link your comment to your post here. I actually second your opinion on RG. They're great but not too OP for instance playing, if i had to do a class meta ranking list I'd put them at a solid A ranking below the S tier for Gene and GX. I feel like making drastic improvements to RGs might be too much but incremental improvements to their current skills like for DB RK (gears that eventually increase ranged damage and aftercast etc) would go a long way for newer and lesser geared RGs (yours is a little too overgeared lol).

 


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#17 Usurper

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:32 PM

For SCs

 

Yeah jRO gears gave them the ability of clearing instances conveniently and faster but still lack support skills for parties in PvM.

 

Personally I think a little boost on PvM skills might make a big change on how others see SCs as party mates:

 

1.) Dimension Door -  Make this skill work a bit like G. Fly Wings (Only downside is it's not instant and characters would need to move to DD's cell to be able to teleport)

 

2.) Invisibility - Make the skill toggle-able, giving the SC the ability to turn this skill on/off would be a great improvement. (Not really sure how this would help the party in PvM but still a nice and reasonable change.)

 

The future update allowing Auto-spell to work with bows is definitely a nice improvement but still doesn't help in parties.

 

 


Edited by Usurper, 10 October 2017 - 11:28 PM.

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#18 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:45 PM

Okay, I've updated all of the legit comments into the main post for now. Thank you for sharing guys. I'm hoping this can be become a big thread for players to easily see whats the real problems and things each classes look forward to. 


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#19 asperatus

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:01 AM

Sorcerer:

Absolutely no synergy at all, between hindsight, spellfist and aoe casting 

Spellfist itself has glaring design issues. The way of recharging is clunky, it punishes having a lot of cast reduction from gear/stats, pretty much forces to max study yet study itself is of little use for spellfister  - requires major redesign

 

summons, while useful in general, perish quickly. Which is a problem, since summoning them over and over is out of question because of the weigth of elemental stones. - introduce homunculus mechanics to summons (allowing to resurrect/vaporise summon), elemental stones serving only as a way of changing the avaiable summon

 

summons' skills lack buff timer which would make player able to see when effects are going to end

 

insignias, even bugfixed, aren't going to see a lot of usage outside of mvp scenarios due to long cooldown - cut cooldown in half

 

elemental shield carries a heavy disadvantage(losing summon) while providing a mediocre advantage (party wide safety wall is nothing amazing) - change it so summon no longer disappears after using it 

 

pretty much no access to crowd control outside pvp areas

 


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#20 ChaoticRK

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:58 AM

Honesty, I just want a gear that is with thesame purpose as chb but for physical RK. Maybe increasing the damage a bit, removing cd and reducing a % of sp usage of IB. IB is not really OP considering it is a melee skill compared to long range spamable skills.

Or maybe bringing the rune update is enough for me. I could use a SB.

I don't quite like the idea of changing the skill globally in-game unless it's official. An item, equipment is godonuv.
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#21 Ashuckel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:42 AM

Reducing the aftercast delay on Dark Illusion, Increase the block chance from Weapon Blocking(bring it to be similar to Parry) and make it behave like the mentioned. (WB hard stucks your character, while Parry grts smoothened with higher aspd)
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#22 Kusanagisama

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:45 AM

Warlock: Just implement Brasilis and Moskovia cards and we're good to go.


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#23 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:49 AM

Warlock: Just implement Brasilis and Moskovia cards and we're good to go.


I second this, would be nice if they add mavka card and other moskovia cards.
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#24 Hissis

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:26 AM

Buff bomb cluster to be able to put under target feet!

 

I would love that


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#25 Kusanagisama

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 09:21 AM

Warlock: Just implement Brasilis and Moskovia cards and we're good to go.

 

Also, if we can achieve 100% MDEF bypass while freeing the upper headgear slot and not depending on the shield to combo with a weapon card, it would also be great, by making 2-handed staves alive again.


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