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#51 Nirvanna21

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:26 AM

At the end of the day, I don't care if people are under geared. These are MVPs of the most difficult area in the game, they are SUPPOSED to require good gear to fight, or at least be substituted with good strategy. You should not ever be able to cheese such challenges.


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#52 Toxn

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:32 AM

So it's clear the solution is Hell's Power then. Just make it a short cooldown so the MVP can spam it so it can't be cheesed by letting a throwaway take the hells power while the actual killer is off screen when it's casted.


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#53 Synnyter

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:51 AM

:hmm:  :thx:


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#54 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:00 PM

Anyone mind bothering to explain what actually is being complained about with regards to token?

Seems pretty damn stupid to disable token use at the whim of a couple players.

If token spam is not a problem anywhere else, why is it a problem here.


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#55 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:04 PM

At the end of the day, I don't care if people are under geared. These are MVPs of the most difficult area in the game, they are SUPPOSED to require good gear to fight, or at least be substituted with good strategy. You should not ever be able to cheese such challenges.

Please stop being the game designer, or acting like one. It is not your job to decide what level of gear is required or not for a specific monster. You are repeatedly enforcing your own morality on the game, and your proximity to Campitor and his very obvious favor towards you only makes it a whole lot worse.


Edited by WolfTri, 11 October 2017 - 12:04 PM.

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#56 Nirvanna21

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:07 PM

Please stop being the game designer, or acting like one. It is not your job to decide what level of gear is required or not for a specific monster. You are repeatedly enforcing your own morality on the game, and your proximity to Campitor and his very obvious favor towards you only makes it a whole lot worse.

 

The proposal is to give Bio5 MVP Hell Power, this is a debuff to prevent the use of tokens for Bio5 MVP.

 

The reason as to why is because people are spamming tokens and acid bomb in order to cheese kill Bio5 MVPs for quick riches, nothing more.

 

It is stupid to take the hardest MVPs in game and reduce them to token fodder, even more so when tokens are so easily obtainable for little effort.

 

And I didn't start this, it was Zayaan and Jerbear, the two people whom actually went to put the effort to farm them traditionally who started this, I just happen to agree with them, as do others.

 

Get the facts right next time mate.


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#57 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:16 PM

The proposal is to give Bio5 MVP Hell Power, this is a debuff to prevent the use of tokens for Bio5 MVP.
-Why should iRO specifically have this, if kRO does not? Does kRO not have easy access to tokens as we do?
 
The reason as to why is because people are spamming tokens and acid bomb in order to cheese kill Bio5 MVPs for quick riches, nothing more.
-People have done this for years on practically every MVP ever and every instance ever, except for Satan Morroc who has Hell's Power.
 
It is stupid to take the hardest MVPs in game and reduce them to token fodder, even more so when tokens are so easily obtainable for little effort.
-You think it's stupid. Someone else may not. Why not say something about it earlier, when the hardest MVP was something else? 
 
And I didn't start this, it was Zayaan and Jerbear, the two people whom actually went to put the effort to farm them traditionally who started this, I just happen to agree with them, as do others.
-Does not matter who started it. Your arguments are based on your own feelings, which does not bode well for a seemingly empowered member of the community. If you were to give objective reasons as to why this was unintended, then that would be understandable. At the end of the day, "stupid" is a subjective word, as is "supposed to".
 
Get the facts right next time mate.
-k

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#58 Nirvanna21

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:23 PM

 

The proposal is to give Bio5 MVP Hell Power, this is a debuff to prevent the use of tokens for Bio5 MVP.
-Why should iRO specifically have this, if kRO does not? Does kRO not have easy access to tokens as we do?
 
The reason as to why is because people are spamming tokens and acid bomb in order to cheese kill Bio5 MVPs for quick riches, nothing more.
-People have done this for years on practically every MVP ever and every instance ever, except for Satan Morroc who has Hell's Power.
 
It is stupid to take the hardest MVPs in game and reduce them to token fodder, even more so when tokens are so easily obtainable for little effort.
-You think it's stupid. Someone else may not. Why not say something about it earlier, when the hardest MVP was something else? 
 
And I didn't start this, it was Zayaan and Jerbear, the two people whom actually went to put the effort to farm them traditionally who started this, I just happen to agree with them, as do others.
-Does not matter who started it. Your arguments are based on your own feelings, which does not bode well for a seemingly empowered member of the community. If you were to give objective reasons as to why this was unintended, then that would be understandable. At the end of the day, "stupid" is a subjective word, as is "supposed to".
 
Get the facts right next time mate.
-k

 

 

Correct, kRO can not obtain 30+ Tokens per character per day.

 

True, however this is a new dungeon. It is fresh PVM content with a legit level of challenge to it. In retrospect to the above answer, yes it should be changed.

 

I honestly don't care what bodes well for me or not, people (yourself included) have assumed I do or have a lot more say than what I actually have. Aside from some of my guildmates and a few staff at WP, no one here actually knows what I do. So it is the pot calling the kettle black really.


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#59 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:35 PM

I honestly don't care what bodes well for me or not, people (yourself included) have assumed I do or have a lot more say than what I actually have. Aside from some of my guildmates and a few staff at WP, no one here actually knows what I do. So it is the pot calling the kettle black really.

Can you really blame us? If anything it's because of the GM team, specifically Campitor's terrible lack of transparency. 

 

Matching kRO's systems would be okay so we don't stray too far from developer intent, and end up screwing ourselves over somehow.

 

My point is, literally everything kRO does can arguably be termed stupid. Who decides what is stupid enough to be changed and what is not? A handful of players on forums hardly represent the entire playerbase. Just because some of us who happen to visit forums don't like a certain strategy, does not mean we get to take it away from every other player. After all it is a legitimate strategy in it's own right, braindead as it may be. It is not bug abuse, it is not an exploit, and it is not unintended. It's just that we don't like it. Do you really think it's okay for 20 people to decide what 2000 others should be able to do, simply because the 20 don't like it?

 

And besides, even in this thread there is at least one other person against any change, to say nothing of their reasoning, if votes count for anything.


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#60 Nirvanna21

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:38 PM

Can you really blame us? If anything it's because of the GM team, specifically Campitor's terrible lack of transparency. 

 

Matching kRO's systems would be okay so we don't stray too far from developer intent, and end up screwing ourselves over somehow.

 

My point is, literally everything kRO does can arguably be termed stupid. Who decides what is stupid enough to be changed and what is not? A handful of players on forums hardly represent the entire playerbase. Just because some of us who happen to visit forums don't like a certain strategy, does not mean we get to take it away from every other player. After all it is a legitimate strategy in it's own right, braindead as it may be. It is not bug abuse, it is not an exploit, and it is not unintended. It's just that we don't like it. Do you really think it's okay for 20 people to decide what 2000 others should be able to do, simply because the 20 don't like it?

 

And besides, even in this thread there is at least one other person against any change, to say nothing of their reasoning, if votes count for anything.

 

I actually stated several times what I did, but no one believes me, so that's on them and their paranoia ^

 

And everyone has the right to say something, it's true that a small group of people are often the ones for and against something, but it doesn't change the fact that the other 1980 people can equally come and express their opinion. They just don't, 99% of the time it is because they don't care and simply move on with things.

 

You know it, I know it and everyone knows it.

 

What can you do?


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#61 Hissis

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:48 PM

 

 

  • Rebel Awakening has finished the studio QA process and we are expecting deliveries soon.

 

Hey Camp,do you need a list with every content that should come with the Update (according to kRO's update)?  I'm afraid that Gravity forget something 


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#62 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:49 PM

Hey Camp,do you need a list with every content that should come with the Update (according to kRO's update)?  I'm afraid that Gravity forget something 

 

Hope it will be Moscovia Cards.

:)
 


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#63 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:52 PM

I actually stated several times what I did, but no one believes me, so that's on them and their paranoia ^

 

And everyone has the right to say something, it's true that a small group of people are often the ones for and against something, but it doesn't change the fact that the other 1980 people can equally come and express their opinion. They just don't, 99% of the time it is because they don't care and simply move on with things.

 

You know it, I know it and everyone knows it.

 

What can you do?

People have their reasons  to believe what they do. Sometimes those reasons are more believable than a statement of denial.

 

A lack of dissent is assumed to be consent. By that logic most people are okay with the way tokens are. If they really had an issue with it, they would find ways to make their frustration be known, be it via forum posts or PMs to GM team, or via facebook or any other media. The fact that we only see so few people actually complaining about it is a rather telling story about how much of the playerbase actually finds this problematic.


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#64 Jerbear

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:13 PM

Can you really blame us? If anything it's because of the GM team, specifically Campitor's terrible lack of transparency. 

 

Matching kRO's systems would be okay so we don't stray too far from developer intent, and end up screwing ourselves over somehow.

 

My point is, literally everything kRO does can arguably be termed stupid. Who decides what is stupid enough to be changed and what is not? A handful of players on forums hardly represent the entire playerbase. Just because some of us who happen to visit forums don't like a certain strategy, does not mean we get to take it away from every other player. After all it is a legitimate strategy in it's own right, braindead as it may be. It is not bug abuse, it is not an exploit, and it is not unintended. It's just that we don't like it. Do you really think it's okay for 20 people to decide what 2000 others should be able to do, simply because the 20 don't like it?

 

And besides, even in this thread there is at least one other person against any change, to say nothing of their reasoning, if votes count for anything.

 

If we're going to discuss developer intent, let's take a look at the following video:

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it was never developer intent for an MVP of this caliber to be killed in this manner. This can be evidenced by the fact that all of the MVPs utilize Max Pain, have 15m HP, and some of the most player-unfriendly skill sets this game has ever seen. It encourages groups of people to kill the MVP with strategy (such as good positioning of players) and party diversity to help ease the burden.

 

What's happening in this video is the hardest MVP this game has ever seen is being diminished to something that requires no party, no skill, and even no real consumables. Note how not a single potion is even being used in this video. Nobody is healing. They're just dying repeatedly. All it takes is 1 Token of Siegfried, 1 Bottle Grenade, and 1 Acid Bottle per bomb attempt and you can kill the MVP with no issues whatsoever.

 

Further, because of the existence of Max Pain--something that is supposed to be navigated around through communication (timing your attacks with your party), party diversity (see: Empty Shadow), or positioning (use a Reverberation to Arrow Storm it from around a corner to avoid Max Pain reflect, for example)--actual prepared parties are punished greatly while the people solo bombing with Tokens are given a massive reprieve. If you're Token bombing, you've easily brought 100+ Tokens for the task. You don't care if you die to Max Pain, because you planned on dying to kill the MVP anyway. That's the biggest issue. The prepared party? They came with the purpose of dying as little as possible. At least that's what my party would do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

So unless the MVP was designed with the sole purpose of being soloed with Tokens and by Genetics only, I'm pretty sure this is not an intended method nor a proper use of Token of Siegfried.

 

And no, I've never seen anybody else Token spam the hell out of MVPs in the past to 'camp' them--despite how long it's been a possibility. The first instance I ever saw of it was when Tokens were made more easily obtainable via Giant Faceworm Skin turn ins and a select group of people began to Token bomb Bio3 MVP (arguably the previous 'hardest' MVP) in a similar manner. People never really Token bombed in the past because it was never a viable strategy--either through cost or because it was simply not enjoyable. And I have MVPed a lot across 4 different servers and for well over a decade, so I think that's a pretty healthy sample size.


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#65 Campitor

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM

People have their reasons  to believe what they do. Sometimes those reasons are more believable than a statement of denial.

 

A lack of dissent is assumed to be consent. By that logic most people are okay with the way tokens are. If they really had an issue with it, they would find ways to make their frustration be known, be it via forum posts or PMs to GM team, or via facebook or any other media. The fact that we only see so few people actually complaining about it is a rather telling story about how much of the playerbase actually finds this problematic.

 

I understand your concerns. Pretty much this applies to all volunteers but to address this particular case, Nirvanna has provided a lot of help with us getting the description project worked on and cleaning up the legacy item descriptions in game. The tools he made has helped us turn editing a 800,000 line text file from an hour long project into something that takes minutes He is a very helpful volunteer for this community. However when it comes to game systems and content everything that the volunteers say is considered feed back. Please understand that volunteers don't make decisions, The description, the VMods, Section 9 don't determine the course we take. 

 

 

In this case as shown by Jerbear, the problem isn't the existence or use of tokens its that tokens are allowing certain classes to not even bother to play the game. We want to preserve tokens as a viable option for users to recover from mistakes or bad luck but we also want players to fight the engagement.

 

 

 

 

Hey Camp,do you need a list with every content that should come with the Update (according to kRO's update)?  I'm afraid that Gravity forget something 

That would be helpful.


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#66 Toxn

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:27 PM

I understand your concerns. Pretty much this applies to all volunteers but to address this particular case, Nirvanna has provided a lot of help with us getting the description project worked on and cleaning up the legacy item descriptions in game. The tools he made has helped us turn editing a 800,000 line text file from an hour long project into something that takes minutes He is a very helpful volunteer for this community. However when it comes to game systems and content everything that the volunteers say is considered feed back. Please understand that volunteers don't make decisions, The description, the VMods, Section 9 don't determine the course we take.

 

So you are posting this only now about volunteers when you really should have done it months ago, when Mike was first publicly attacked and accused of changing things he had no part or say in. With nothing being done aside from moderating and deleting the accusation posts, despite the accusations being pretty serious and done on multiple occasions. Not going to lie, it's a bit disappointing a statement has taken this long. But it's welcoming nevertheless.


Edited by Toxn, 11 October 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#67 KriticalAssassin

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:28 PM

Token bombing is usable on practically every mvp in the game though, don't really see why people complaining now, been happening a long time. Only way to compete with people who started it is really to join in on it. And tbh even if it's fixed, people are going to find/use other ways to cheese it =\

 

On the other hand- if it is to be chased to make a way to disable token bombing, wonder if there would be a chance that using tokens also inflicted a sort of skill block for a # of seconds after use to prevent any form of skills form being cast, that way they would be out of invulnerability before being able to start casting anything, yet it would still allow for token users to pick up loot/etc/etc


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#68 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

Tokens are a major reason why pvm feels braindead or boring. The game should never have had them. But unfortunately, they do exist, and the game has been balanced and developed with those in mind. We are not content creators. We have conditional power to change certain small things, at best. Completely disregarding developer intent keeping these in mind sounds more harmful than helpful. Our customizations are not factored into by the creators. Adding hells power directly makes the mvps tougher, making their drops even rarer than they were intended to be. And this is just one such side effect. Such "bold" decisions have already bit us in the past.
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#69 Darksorrow1234

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

its sad that bio5 mvp cant teleport, or spawn in random areas lel


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#70 KriticalAssassin

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:40 PM

its sad that bio5 mvp cant teleport, or spawn in random areas lel

Gertie does Snatch, lol


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#71 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:41 PM

So you are posting this only now about volunteers when you really should have done it months ago, when Mike was first publicly attacked and accused of changing things he had no part or say in. With nothing being done aside from moderating and deleting the accusation posts, despite the accusations being pretty serious and done on multiple occasions. Not going to lie, it's a bit disappointing a statement has taken this long. But it's welcoming nevertheless.


Let me just clarify, I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm just saying that because of the work put in as a volunteer, his feedback holds more sway than a random player's. I say this as a statement of fact, and not to tarnish reputation or something like that. Also because it feels pretty dumb for someone else's opinion to be prioritized every time despite not being well reasoned or the majority opinion, simply because of the proximity of to the CMs. If anything, I was offending camp and no one else. I understand it is difficult to not have favor even subconsciously for someone who has indeed been of so much help. But nonetheless, it is a difficult situation and it had to be said.
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#72 Kusanagisama

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:45 PM

Leave tokens as it is in biolabs, not everyone is as good player as the one posting here in forums. Disable gene maybe

 

I like this solution better than Hell's Power. :P


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#73 aentunei

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:01 PM

the real solution is making the MVPs HP to 2000 only plant type emperium type damage recieve .....

PS
jumping janeway ..... ;-)
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#74 Demeris

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:02 PM

Tokens should probably just be removed from the game to be honest. It removes a lot of challenge from any game, not just RO.

You see premium ressing in phone games all the time if you fail a stage. The difference is that they charge players a premium currency vs obtaining it for free in game through easy farming.

If anything, they need to limit how often you get to use it. One mistake is fine, but 30 under 2 minutes? You're just cheesing it.

My last serious suggestion, use the following formula:

First token costs 1, then any other one used under 1 minute will require 5, then 10, then 15, etc.

They can spam it if they want, but they gotta pay up ;)

Adding a limitation will satisfy problems of "'mistakes" and doesn't allow players to have it be spammable.

Edited by Demeris, 11 October 2017 - 02:04 PM.

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#75 WolfTri

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:04 PM

And besides, if the problem is only token bombing, hell's power is vastly overdoing it. Not being able to token for 3 minutes is immensely disruptive to "normal" gameplay. It is absolutely not acceptable to force people to do a clean deathless kill on the toughest mvp in a game balanced around tokens. Keep in mind hell's power disables priest resurrection too. Far too much collateral damage here, we need a better way. Even considering this is absolutely insane, I can guarantee you a vast majority of the playerbase will be against such changes.
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