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#151 WolfTri

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:43 AM

What I am considering experimenting with is having the MVPs start casting an interruptible self heal when a player dies. The idea is that if its still constantly being engaged it won't finish that heal while if there is a wipe out the MVP resets itself

That sounds good. Most MMOs now do have a mechanic where the boss resets to full hp on party wipe anyways, so it sounds fair. 


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#152 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:43 AM

Kay so you were just misrepresenting facts. Not as bad as I initially thought.

As I have repeatedly said before, Hell's Power does not preserve the use of tokens as a means to recover from mistakes, hence does not fit into campitor's requirements, and hence should not be brought in. 

 

I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. They're trying to change something. That's it.

 

And, to further the discussion on Hell's Power, doing something like a Full Heal does not preserve the traditional gameplay, either. That's why this discussion is being had. Every suggestion and/or solution will have its upsides and downsides. You're focused on the downsides of Hell's Power. That's your position and you're free to keep it. Understand that nobody here is forcing you out of your vote! Vote with your voice and opinion--end of the day, it's a WarpPortal/kRO decision.

 

For example, if we tack on Full Heal to all of the MVPs, every time the Paladin MVP uses Grand Cross, it will briefly go into an idle state which will then trigger it to start to Full Heal. If it's instantaneous, that's bad. It'll never die. If it's too long, that's bad, because Tokens can still be spammed to stop it.

 

Few people know this, but Shadow Chaser MVP is an absolute nightmare to kill traditionally (because anybody killing her currently is just spamming Tokens, thus they never encounter this). I'd say it actually borders on impossible. All she does is spam Fatal Menance on the tank every 5 seconds, teleporting herself and your tank around the map endlessly. The fact that you cannot teleport on the map to get to where your tank ends up is actually incredibly problematic.

 

But again, this whole thing is a very delicate balance between fixing what is unintended and not altering gameplay too much--and that's why the discussion is occurring.


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#153 WolfTri

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:48 AM

I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. They're trying to change something. That's it.

 

And, to further the discussion on Hell's Power, doing something like a Full Heal does not preserve the traditional gameplay, either. That's why this discussion is being had. Every suggestion and/or solution will have its upsides and downsides. You're focused on the downsides of Hell's Power. That's your position and you're free to keep it. Understand that nobody here is forcing you out of your vote! Vote with your voice and opinion--end of the day, it's a WarpPortal/kRO decision.

 

For example, if we tack on Full Heal to all of the MVPs, every time the Paladin MVP uses Grand Cross, it will briefly go into an idle state which will then trigger it to start to Full Heal. If it's instantaneous, that's bad. It'll never die. If it's too long, that's bad, because Tokens can still be spammed to stop it.

 

Few people know this, but Shadow Chaser MVP is an absolute nightmare to kill traditionally (because anybody killing her currently is just spamming Tokens, thus they never encounter this). I'd say it actually borders on impossible. All she does is spam Fatal Menance on the tank every 5 seconds, teleporting herself and your tank around the map endlessly. The fact that you cannot teleport on the map to get to where your tank ends up is actually incredibly problematic.

 

But again, this whole thing is a very delicate balance between fixing what is unintended and not altering gameplay too much--and that's why the discussion is occurring.

And a more transparent discussion is all I ask for. With camp actually going into detail on what's being considered, we can have meaningful debate rather than just guessing and being kept in the dark. The largest issue for me was with the process. Now that we have fair process, arguments have meaning.

 

I admit it's impossible to create a perfect fix, and some of us would like to err on the side of fixing while the rest would err on the side of preserving gameplay.

 

To delve into the arguments, perhaps first in order would be to fix the SC AI before the only way of killing her is fixed, lest we have an MVP teleporting(via fatal menace as you tell me) all over the map wreaking havoc on unsuspecting parties.

I just can't find a world where Hell's Power is okay, because it just is so largely disruptive. AB Resurrection being disabled is a significant part of that.

Perhaps we can tweak the Full Heal to a relative sweet spot, where things like Grand Cross and Ignition Break do not cause a full heal; and to compensate for this we can add a small delay (about 1 second) to token usage(time between death and being able to token), making it slightly higher than the cast time for full heal. Is the 1 second delay on token disruptive in other parts of the game? It sounds okay to me personally.

Is there any chance we can add a "temper" meter to the MVP? As in each time it enters idle state, it adds one tick to its temper meter, and when it reaches say 10, it casts full heal.


Edited by WolfTri, 12 October 2017 - 08:58 AM.

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#154 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:57 AM

A transparent discussion is all that you and everybody on these forums has gotten. It was basically "look at this" to the CMs and the reply was "we'll look into it" to kickstart this investigation into Token spamming. That right there is intent to change and this thread furthers that stance.

 

But there was absolutely no word on what might possibly be done. The people who first brought it to the forefront of WarpPortal's attention were just as much in the dark (days without anything said at times). This thread has the first concrete options they've shared with anybody. People are simply saying that they are not the only options that we're stuck with. Or maybe they are for deeper reasons? I don't know!

 

Several people in the thread keep suggesting that Tokens should be given a cooldown or a debuff upon use, but unforunately they cannot. They're not a true consumable so there's no way to implement those things without fundamentally changing how they are--which sounds like a kRO job. It's things like that that limit the options and whittle down possible temporary solutions.


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#155 WolfTri

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:03 AM

Is there no way for monsters to detect if there are any alive players on screen? Would be an easy fix to the grand cross/ignition break problem if there was.

 

I assume the temper meter is out of the question as well, without kRO intervention. Which we all know will never happen.

 

Edit: Or heck, give the MVP Hell's Power that lasts for 2 seconds, and Full Heal that casts in 1.5 seconds of idling.


Edited by WolfTri, 12 October 2017 - 09:05 AM.

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#156 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:19 AM

An interruptible Full Heal would actually be a good mitigating option, I think. As long as the MVP has that skill as its first priority check while idle, and the cast time is not painfully short nor terribly long.

 

If it helps deter the solo aspect that is plaguing Bio5 MVP at the moment, then it's a welcome change. There's no reason the MVP should be dead within seconds of spawning 24/7 because it's readily able to be soloed. If you're awake at night and the MVP is out and none of your party buddies are around, then just leave it. Someone with a party will get it eventually and that's not a bad thing.

 

Look at Richkr--they were killing it during the late night hours with a friend because no other parties were available to kill it. Videos of the kill were even made, which were both informative and educational from a gameplay perspective. But Richkr doesn't do it anymore because having to spam Tokens to be able to compete is not good game design. It's also not that fun, but that's my opinion. Richkr is fully capable of Token spamming, too. As am I, and anybody else.

 

I've even done it against Shadow Chaser Gertie after watching people Token bomb for several days. That's actually one of the first things that prompted me to bring it up to the CMs because of how stupid easy it was through my firsthand experience.


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#157 Toxn

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:45 AM

Again, I'm not personally against stopping the token spam "cheese" strat. But the Hell's Power solution suggested causes waaaay too much collateral damage to be an acceptable fix. You throw every other normal player under the bus too, along with AB resurrection. Many people have said hell's power is a no, but for some reason [snip] keeps coming back saying they wan't hell's power. I assume it's because no other alternative seems likely, but in this case I very much think Hell's Power will do a lot more harm than good. Toxn himself stated the abuse part. Hell's Power entirely removes tokens from the equation, when they were very much intended to be part of the game. Reducing token use on the MVP is okay. Not entirely removing. Remove cheese strat, you won't affect a lot people. Just the 1 or 2 groups who use that strat. But Hell's Power does more than just that, it heavily punishes anyone who does not have a deathless run against the MVP. This increases MVP difficulty to a level far higher than the developers ever intended, and will also result in a monopoly/oligopoly of the MVP being only doable by already experienced and decked out groups of players.

 
[Snip]

 
If you look back in the thread, you will see that I suggested a massively reduced duration Hell's Power. The standard hell's power duration is quite a penalty, there is no denying that. But it is a temporary solution that works. If they can reduce the duration to be less than a minute, then by all means that makes it even more welcoming.
 
And as already mentioned, you don't need the high tier end game gears to take on the bio5 MVPs. Get yourself a small party of players if you want to make up for not having gears, and you can honestly compete, and stand a competing chance against them.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 12 October 2017 - 12:09 PM.
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#158 PervySageMarty

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:08 AM

And as already mentioned, you don't need the high tier end game gears to take on the bio5 MVPs. Get yourself a small party of players if you want to make up for not having gears, and you can honestly compete, and stand a competing chance against them.


I suggest you edit out this quote. You have just given room for veru plaussable counterargument. The fact that they are using tokens because they are not able to make a party with others and that they do not have high tier gear. With this they can technically bring in the argument that they are doing this to gain equal footing and stand a competing chance. Its a two way argument here.
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#159 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

Well, the thing is, nothing is preventing me from doing that either, with really top tier gear to just blast out max damage. And I've done it before. If I committed to it, I wouldn't just carry hundreds of Tokens either. I'd carry thousands.

 

It's just... it's not good for the game.


Edited by Jerbear, 12 October 2017 - 11:11 AM.

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#160 Demeris

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:13 AM

The ultimate penalty of this game would be death.

But it's k, you can just use tokens.

I would love it if every game I played had tokens I can spam.

League... wow... my RPGs, counter strike... imagine if those games gave you res tokens!
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#161 PervySageMarty

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:14 AM

Well, the thing is, nothing is preventing me from doing that either, with really top tier gear to just blast out max damage. And I've done it before. If I committed to it, I wouldn't just carry hundreds of Tokens either. I'd carry thousands.

It's just... it's not good for the game.


Thanks for adjudgong how plebian i am in comparison, with my untop tier gear.

I believe we need big boob sprites to help make it fair in bio5, bigger boobs make everything transparent for everyone. You can have your traditional experienxe, i can have my eye candy. Its win-win.
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#162 Nirvanna21

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:15 AM

Well, the thing is, nothing is preventing me from doing that either, with really top tier gear to just blast out max damage. And I've done it before. If I committed to it, I wouldn't just carry hundreds of Tokens either. I'd carry thousands.

 

It's just... it's not good for the game.

 

You were pretty good at locking out competition for Bio3, maybe you should just completely lock out Bio5 as well. Then eventually people might see how silly the mechanic is.


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#163 Demeris

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:17 AM

I want everyone in this thread to start playing Monster Hunter.

In that game, I realized having limitations on what you can do is a good thing. It makes you want to improve and maximize your potential.

Res tokens, I can understand for a few unfortunate moments. But it drastically takes away any challenges as long as you have them. A full wipe on a team just means everyone can just self res and continue the fight. There's a reason why Res Tokens are not available in WoE maps. Apply that same logic to PVM.
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#164 Hissis

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM

Can we make dorams Humanoid now? LOL

 

 

:heh:

 

p.s: Im serious.


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#165 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:37 AM

You were pretty good at locking out competition for Bio3, maybe you should just completely lock out Bio5 as well. Then eventually people might see how silly the mechanic is.

 

I already discussed that at length with Zayaan, too. It's not fun and there's no sense of in-game accomplishment when doing it through Tokens.

 

Our time isn't as free so we don't hit Bio3 that often anymore (instances are easier to complete when you're only playing a few hours as opposed to looking for Bio3 spawn time), but when we tried our absolute best to lock down Bio3, it was never by eating hundreds of Tokens. I wouldn't kill Bio3 if that's what I had to do to get the job done.

 

It was straight up tank, position yourself well, communicate, and do as much damage as quickly as possible. Wholly efficient. Lex, Fiberlock with Pyro, etc. With the correct full buffs, select Bio3 MVPs can be killed with a single Acid Bomb.


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#166 Nirvanna21

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:39 AM

I already discussed that at length with Zayaan, too. It's not fun and there's no sense of in-game accomplishment when doing it through Tokens.

 

Our time isn't as free so we don't hit Bio3 that often anymore (instances are easier to complete when you're only playing a few hours as opposed to looking for Bio3 spawn time), but when we tried our absolute best to lock down Bio3, it was never by eating hundreds of Tokens. I wouldn't kill Bio3 if that's what I had to do to get the job done.

 

It was straight up tank, position yourself well, communicate, and do as much damage as quickly as possible. Wholly efficient. Lex, Fiberlock with Pyro, etc. With the correct full buffs, select Bio3 MVPs can be killed with a single Acid Bomb.

 

^


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#167 Toxn

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:51 AM

It's not fun and there's no sense of in-game accomplishment when doing it through Tokens.

 

Quite honestly this is why NBio as a whole sucks for me. kRO delayed the dungeon for years so they could rebalance it and make it harder. The idea of it being challenging and not something anybody could just walk into and get the same rewards as those who are prepared or organized to do it could made it appealing. But Heim decided to make tokens free to everybody on iRO years ago, and then Camp made it worse. There is no appeal to farming Bio5 when everybody in the game has the ability to with token spamming (and there is plenty of token spammers farming bio5). Obviously asking for tokens to be disabled map wide is asking for too much, even if that is something I would have preferred myself. But allowing it to be spammed on MVPs designed for difficulty and preparation is straight up BS

 

kRO doesn't face the same issue we face, sure they can token but they have to purchase tokens with microtransaction, rather than essentially getting it for free (spending 5 minutes of faceworm, not even killing the queen gets iRO players 20-25 tokens easily). But spending real money is something that actually deters most from doing it.


Edited by Toxn, 12 October 2017 - 12:05 PM.

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#168 ChakriGuard

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:52 AM

Can every castle in WoE 1/2TE give each guild member 150 cursed fragments at the end of WoE? Put an NCP to claim the rewards! 


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#169 ChakriGuard

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:06 PM

Personally, I think they should make the map PVPable

 

Or this. If you're going to leave Token the way it is. Should make the map PvP-able/WoE-able. Currently, PvM players have it too easy at killing MvPs. We should add some predators in Bio5 ie PvP/WoE players who are not interested in killing dumb Als, but rather kill people who abuse Token on dumb Als  :rice:


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#170 aentunei

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:02 PM

it is only a game people of bikini portal lets have some peace on earth shall we?....

ohh by the way...

PS.

jumping janeway....is the key to victory in bio5 ...

why? coz more alts means more damager and buffer and tanker!....
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#171 VModCinnamon

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:53 PM

jumping janeway....is the key to victory in bio5 ...

why? coz more alts means more damager and buffer and tanker!....

 

Hello there!

There are no current plans to bring Jumping Janeway.


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#172 DeadIntern

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:30 PM

I think any cast time that would allow a party member to interrupt the MVP's full heal would also be enough time to allow the dead player to token and CC the enemy.
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#173 Jerbear

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:52 PM

Alternatively, it could be a longer cast time that cannot be interrupted, forcing players to use Spell Breaker. If you're spamming Tokens, you'll have to do that each time for the 10% success chance before quickly dying. Anybody killing with a party should be able to prevent it relatively easily (RNG bad luck aside) if a party wipe occurred as the tank could hold the MVP while Spell Breaker is cast by other members.


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#174 markopolong

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:03 PM

Again..leave the token alone gaiss..hahaha. i dont want to be dead at the same time as the mob and crying due to not able to pick up the loots or even the card! Who gonna pay for my straws, slims and food? Poor me a noob who starting to make my way up with ya all big boys..T_T

If u wanna touch the token or hell power crap, i would like to request only 1 thing. Remove that annoying phantom thrust!! With a tanker, almost 100% of the time got pulled into that deadly casting aoe poison, ES, PW etc etc. If AB die, who wanna ress me? T__T
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#175 FT15

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:30 AM

Im just here... waiting for my Rebel to be Awakened..  :yawn:


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