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Cylinder > Non-Insta CC OMW?


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#1 Kusanagisama

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 08:07 AM

What do you guys think? The damage increment is really noticeable, but for those who can't/don't want to achieve instant cast CC, the casting time will reduce the DPS. At which cast times a +10/+12 Old Midas Whisper is capable of producing Higher DPS than a +7 Cylinder? Has anyone done the math?


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#2 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 08:21 AM

I think there should be a break-even point, but it may not be easily calculable. Without instant-cast your CC may be interrupted, and it is hard to do math with this uncertainty. If you wear gears/cards that protect against interruption such as +12 MBS or Phen, then you are also changing other variables from the formula.


Edited by LordYggdrasill, 25 October 2017 - 08:22 AM.

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#3 Ashuckel

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

if you are using Old Midas, you should have enough dex and int to have a pretty good cast time. And it wont be an issue for dps as CC "cant be spammed". Aside the 0.5s delay, there's an animation lock, unless you bypasa that through other methods.
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#4 Kusanagisama

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:23 AM

That's why I'm asking. I know there's an animation delay, I don't know how long it is, and it feels like it can't be reduced by increasing ASPD. Also, it feels longer than the aftercast delay.

 

My damage increased by solid ~20% using my +10 OMW if compared to Cylinder, but I don't feel like I'm killing stuff quicker with CC. Probably my DPS is about the same, but I couldn't figure a way of measuring it (also, because I can't afford to keep +20 DEX/INT foods up all the time :P).

 

I mean, DPS = Damage/T, but what is the total "T"?

 

Is it: T = Cast Time + Aftercast Delay + Animation Time? Or is it: T = Cast Time + maximum(Aftercast Delay, Animation Time)? How long is Animation Time? Is it ASPD related, or my impression is right and it not being affected by ASPD?


Edited by Kusanagisama, 25 October 2017 - 09:37 AM.

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#5 DieNasty

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:46 AM

Get Cyl if you’re too lazy to farm. Get OMW if you have the time to farm.
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#6 Kusanagisama

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:52 AM

I have both... I don't know which is better, though. :P Eventually OMW will be better, with Mettle enchant and +12, etc. but now the winner is not clear. :P


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#7 Scuba

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 11:57 AM

Also have to factor in the HP of what you are trying to kill. If you aren't reducing the total number of CCs you won't notice a difference. For example, if you level in Scaraba with normal gear, then add megs if they don't reduce your 2 shot to a 1 shot, you won't notice a difference in speed at all. Same goes for NCT or Bio4/5. Even .iIf you increase your dps by 20%, you still need to CC something less times in total or else you won't see an increase in kill speed. Which makes it great for things with like, 50m HP. But not required for things with 200-300k hp.


Edited by Scuba, 25 October 2017 - 12:09 PM.

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#8 yauhoilun

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:47 PM

I have a better solution.

 

Ditch CC for AB :heh:


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#9 Kusanagisama

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:55 PM

Also have to factor in the HP of what you are trying to kill. If you aren't reducing the total number of CCs you won't notice a difference. For example, if you level in Scaraba with normal gear, then add megs if they don't reduce your 2 shot to a 1 shot, you won't notice a difference in speed at all. Same goes for NCT or Bio4/5. Even .iIf you increase your dps by 20%, you still need to CC something less times in total or else you won't see an increase in kill speed. Which makes it great for things with like, 50m HP. But not required for things with 200-300k hp.

 

Of course! Good of you to mention it. It effectively helps me level in NCT (though I'm certainly not doing it for a long time) because I can 3-shot monsters without relying on INT/STR +20 foods, so it's less expensive, but still has the cast time as drawback. But I was thinking more in killing MVPs, specially high HP MVPs, like you mentioned.

 

Doc, good luck killing Gloom, Fenrir and Bee with AB. :P Also, if I wasn't worried about cost, like you don't need to, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place. :P I don't want to keep perma +20 INT/DEX foods for instacast CC, I'd rather use it only when needed.


Edited by Kusanagisama, 25 October 2017 - 09:55 PM.

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#10 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 05:49 AM

Yeah that's exactly what I feel as well, I have zero interest to keep investing on +20 food, even if it means instant cast. Better Just use Cylinder instead if instant cast is necessary.

Still, OMW with magic essence 5 and temporal dex boots = instant cast Acid Bomb. I would still get it for this reason alone, but for CC I would stick with Cylinder.

Edited by LordYggdrasill, 26 October 2017 - 05:51 AM.

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#11 Doomsquare

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 06:05 AM

Even at +10, the damage boost from OMW is already a lot higher than comparing with Cylinder. There's so many easy gears to use that adds stats to instacast. 

 

 


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#12 MyNameIsTaken

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 06:13 AM

or rent mjolnir and u can use OMW and even ditch the sapph wrists for something better  :rice:


Edited by MyNameIsTaken, 26 October 2017 - 06:13 AM.

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#13 Doomsquare

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 06:13 AM

Yeah that's exactly what I feel as well, I have zero interest to keep investing on +20 food, even if it means instant cast. Better Just use Cylinder instead if instant cast is necessary.

Still, OMW with magic essence 5 and temporal dex boots = instant cast Acid Bomb. I would still get it for this reason alone, but for CC I would stick with Cylinder.

 

 

Nothing really changed here, for quite a number of mvps which casts slow cast, you'll still need to get instacast via stats, otherwise suffer super slow CC be it with Cylinder or OMW


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#14 MyNameIsTaken

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 06:15 AM

Nothing really changed here, for quite a number of mvps which casts slow cast, you'll still need to get instacast via stats, otherwise suffer super slow CC be it with Cylinder or OMW

and this, you will know cylinder is useless when you do ET and get slow casted

 


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#15 Doomsquare

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 06:29 AM

and this, you will know cylinder is useless when you do ET and get slow casted

 

Takes one to know another ^_^


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#16 XanneAgain

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:10 AM

Guys, how does a KK card on OMW sound like? Do VCT reduct cards work with reducts from (2dex+1int)?  :p_conf:

 

-10% VCT from +10 OMW looks nice and on top of that, i think 2% MAtk is a pretty nice bonus.


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#17 carbinemortiser

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:17 AM

Bad idea. Variable cast time reduction from gears and through stats stack multiplicatively. Even if both are 99% reduction, it will never reach 100%.
Get nocast either from 100% total redux gears OR purely through stats.
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#18 XanneAgain

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:25 AM

Ehhhh.. too bad. I was thinking that adding some more dex and int here and there will get me to instacast OMW CC.

 

I tried to run my numbers in the VCT formula from "Skills" page on iRO wiki and i got 0.07 sec VCT(no buffs). Maybe that might work just fine.. I'm more worried of the slot used.

 

 


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#19 MyNameIsTaken

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 03:48 AM

and VCT redux from gears is affected by slow cast so it wont help you when you get slow casted. Only Insta obtained by stats isnt affected by slow cast.

 

On the other hand if you have are under quagmire the stats insta-cast gets hindered and the gears wont. 


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#20 MyNameIsTaken

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 03:51 AM

if you want to keep using dps gears like Phy set, liberation set and etc etc you have to use +20 stats food. I see no other way and sometime even using +20 stat foods isnt enuf. So people who want to get insta cast with OMW using pure stats and not wanting to use +20 food shud give up VERY significant amount of dps to obtain it. 


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#21 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:17 AM

So people who want to get insta cast with OMW using pure stats and not wanting to use +20 food shud give up VERY significant amount of dps to obtain it.


Yeah and that's why OMW may not be a better option than Cylinder unless the gain of CC damage from Switching from Cylinder to OMW alone, is enough to offset the loss of DPS you give up by resorting to less desirable VCT reduction gears.
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#22 Doomsquare

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:42 AM

Yeah and that's why OMW may not be a better option than Cylinder unless the gain of CC damage from Switching from Cylinder to OMW alone, is enough to offset the loss of DPS you give up by resorting to less desirable VCT reduction gears.

 

Put to perspective from ET players. I use Cylinder throughout ET, and switch to OMW when I'm at Fallen Bishop onwards, only switching once back to Cylinder just for Valk (darn dispell).

 

There are situations where using +20 food buffs are just a plain waste to get instacast, and times where it'll really boost your damage and makes your runs safer/cleaner.


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#23 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:44 AM

Put to perspective from ET players. I use Cylinder throughout ET, and switch to OMW when I'm at Fallen Bishop onwards, only switching once back to Cylinder just for Valk (darn dispell).

 

There are situations where using +20 food buffs are just a plain waste to get instacast, and times where it'll really boost your damage and makes your runs safer/cleaner.

 

Well I did say that OMW may not be a clear better option that Cylinder, but it may not be a clear worse option either. When it makes the difference of 1 shot vs 2 shots, even a little cast time is worth all the trouble. Of course, I would get OMW just for the sake of instant-cast Acid Bomb myself, as I have said earlier.
 


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#24 Kusanagisama

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 07:17 AM

Doomsquare and Udyr's answers made me think that it was worth opening this discussion after all. One of the cool aspects of Ragnarok (that are kinda lacking nowadays) is how trade-offs affect your playstyle, build, etc. Cool answer guys.


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#25 Doomsquare

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:07 PM

Oh just to spice it up, it's worth getting 2 OMW, one with Magic Essence purely for bombing, and one more with dex/int/mette enchants purely for CC.

Then there's times where you fight something weaker, that's when Cylinder comes in for that free instacast.

 

The real trade off is the cost. Most well off players have specific (best) gears for doing certain stuffs.


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