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#1 henrycao

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 09:22 AM

I have a question about how you develop your game in terms of itemization and stats. For example: I understand why you put the elements strengths and weaknesses in the way in which you did. I must say it was very well thought out. However, how did you decide the numbers for the level 240 accessories? Was it random? Or based off statistical values that would balance your game? At the moment, there are a few classes that are very much underplayed. Players have attempted multiple times to make them work but it hasn't. As a community, is there something that us players are not understanding about those classes? Why is it that certain classes even after several attempts of building them up seem to be so weak? Is it possible that perhaps you, the GameMaster, can show us some insights/tutorials as to the way certain underplayed classes should work? Maybe if you so kindly can show us, our players can learn from your perspective and understand how you intended the class balancing to be balanced from several years ago. Thanks in advance!
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#2 Snuwfer

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:10 PM

Class balancing was never fully finished before the Pegasus skill update was pushed through, this is the reason why it's how it is


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#3 Feuer

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:39 AM

Actually, the current elemental balance was my suggestion. 

 

However, the stats are based on a method they keep secret, but I've been told they have some direct 'method' for determining which stat should have which level based on what level the item is, and absolutely no class balance is taken into account when the items are assigned values. Unless Genesis over rode Leonis on this, then it's probably still the same distribution method when assigning stats to items. 


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#4 henrycao

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 04:16 PM

Well, that should have been taken into consideration when they were doing class balancing. It shouldn't have been limited to just "class" balancing. It should have considered the gears as well available to those classes that use them. Some classes have statistical advantages because they can reach a relative range with gears alone while other classes can't. The classes who can't must then compensate with their base stat values but at a ridiculous cost which ultimately puts them at a disadvantage. Example: the 300 con axe that can't beat raiders vs a 100 con sword that can beat raiders and stats for max ap which enables it to beat the axe aswell.
Classes who can reach relative ranges through equipment can stat with statistical advantages.
Classes who can't reach relative ranges through equipment don't function properly in this game.
I am sorry, but unless rose can consider itemization when balancing a class. This game will still be unbalanced.

When a balancing occurs again, if ever. My suggestions is to consider the following:
Class stats
Class skills
With***
Class itemization***(potential)
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#5 Feuer

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:28 AM

The problem with Accuracy + Dodge specifically, is that no one REALLY knows how it works, and the DEV's refuse to tell us, or to make a simple rating system like with Critical + Critical Defense. We also have no way of telling how much dodge % or accuracy % our characters have. 

 

That being said, taking itemization into account is easily done, but also easily invalid. The classes who are suffering aren't suffering because they need better items; they're suffering because they're statistically weak from a base. A good example is Artisans. You will never have even a shred of decent survival on an Artisan due to 1 main reason, you have 0 defensive passives. This means no matter how you try to defend yourself, you don't have the tooling to generate enough defensive stats to mean anything. You'll notice that every class right now works off of 4 main stats.

 

Dodge

Block

Bubble

Stealth

 

if your class doesn't have access to at MINIMUM 1 of those stats, then your class is going to struggle, but even just having 1, would be better than none. No defensive's, no chance. 


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#6 Phish

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:25 AM

Did the dodge calculation get changed since the 2013 update?
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#7 Feuer

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:41 AM

Last I checked, it's never been published, so unless you were given the information in private from a DEV or crunched the numbers yourself until you found the equation, then no one knows how it works or if it's been changed through out the years. 


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#8 Phish

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:00 AM

It was established that the ratio was avcuracy/dodge in the 2013 update (There is still a small maybe 5% chance to miss regardless though). The issue with this system is that half of the classes in the game can never acgeive enough enough dodge to get any benefit from it in pvp, a couple can make some use out of it if they Perdue It, and hawkers, specifically (katar) raiders get such an obscene amount of it.
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#9 Feuer

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

How did I miss that, can you link the notes on it, I want to see specifically what was said

 


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#10 henrycao

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:37 AM

The problem with Accuracy + Dodge specifically, is that no one REALLY knows how it works, and the DEV's refuse to tell us, or to make a simple rating system like with Critical + Critical Defense. We also have no way of telling how much dodge % or accuracy % our characters have.

That being said, taking itemization into account is easily done, but also easily invalid. The classes who are suffering aren't suffering because they need better items; they're suffering because they're statistically weak from a base. A good example is Artisans. You will never have even a shred of decent survival on an Artisan due to 1 main reason, you have 0 defensive passives. This means no matter how you try to defend yourself, you don't have the tooling to generate enough defensive stats to mean anything. You'll notice that every class right now works off of 4 main stats.

Dodge
Block
Bubble
Stealth

if your class doesn't have access to at MINIMUM 1 of those stats, then your class is going to struggle, but even just having 1, would be better than none. No defensive's, no chance.

Actually, what I recall is that the ratio between accuracy and dodge is 1:1

Dodge ~equipment
Block ~equipment
Absorb
Stealth

Health Pool ~equipment
Damage reductions ~equipment
AoE attack power downs
Harmful effect resistance ~equipment
Resistances ~equipment
stuns
sleeps
mutes.
Or any debuff to offensive stats.

I will be more specific this time.
Comparing swords vs axes when fighting a raider.
Swords get an additional accuracy passive.
Axes do not.
Swords builds like 100 con. And relocates all its SP into building attackpower.
Axe has to build around 300 con. And relocates all its SP from attackpower to accuracy.
Now they both use Wandering accessories to fight raiders. (Or Vagabond accessories for axes)
Now they both switch to Vagrant accessories to fight each other.
Who wins?
The sword wins because it didn't need to build con. The axe now has an unnecessary amount of accuracy vs the sword(that has low dodge anyway) and a lower attackpower due to building con.
So now the imbalance is due to axes having to compensate all that con in order to hit a hawker class. While swords in comparison can utilize both attack power and accuracy accessories vs high or low dodge classes. Axes have to choose whether they want to be useless against an entire hawker class or be underperforming against all classes.

Edited by henrycao, 20 January 2018 - 11:42 AM.

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#11 Feuer

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:59 AM

You're touching on an issue I've tried raising a few times in the past. 

 

When the vast majority of players in PvP are using Raiders due to their dodge, EVERYONE builds around accuracy enough to hit them. Mages, even though they had the best dodge down skills in the game, even protested so much that they were given the most broken and over powered accuracy in the game, just to compete with them.

 

The problem with that is, if EVERYONE is building that much accuracy, any class who uses dodge, but can't match the raiders dodge, might as well not try dodging. It works in PvM sure, but not PvP. 

 

The problem you present in your argument is true, but the DEV's have already said they want Axes to retain that weakness. For some reason, Raider and Mages are listened to and given all the tools necessary to kill every other class, but when it comes to these certain specs, you're just wasting your time. They don't WANT Axes to beat Raiders, they don't want Soldiers to beat Mages or BC's. It's just the way the game is. 

 

Mage, and Raider, will always be the top classes, because they won't make Dealers a true threat to Raiders ever again, and Raiders were supposed to be the counter to Mages [hence Muse's low phys def and not so great accuracy before the updates]. Dealers were hunted by soldiers, but because Dealers don't have anyone they have a statistical advantage over [formerly Hawkers] there's no reason to play a Soldier. Nothing for the soldier to hunt, they're not played. Nothing for Dealers to hunt, they won't get played. 

 

Raider & Mage.

 

You might be able to build dueling sets on very certain classes like SF's building SPECIFICALLY to kill a Raider, but you're talking about an entire equipment set specifically to counter 1 class. If your only chance of being on even ground with a class, is a fully invested & customized set of equipment, and requires switching that set to fight anything else, your class is broken, and not in a good way. I'm fine with statistical advantages, but an entire dedicated set of equipment, and sometimes stats, just to counter 1 class is wrong. 

 

But don't expect a fix. It's been 4 years, and Artisans don't even have a cheap decloak yet. You think they'll invest time fixing these non-specs, you'd better stop holding your breathe. [I've not said why they won't, frankly, I don't know why, but the fact is they haven't and most likely that will continue]


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#12 Phish

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:16 PM

Can't really link it at the moment but search for 'dodge by Leonis and check the posts from around august-september 2013 and you'll see some reference to it.
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#13 henrycao

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:40 PM

@Feuer
Well actually, my SF build duals fairly well and it would be pretty selfish of me to understate it and hope for a buff.
Literally I could have half if not more of the community think that sword is broken in a bad way based off what you just said.

Here are a few misconceptions:
People tend to think I build solely to beat raiders.
People tend to think I am fully maxed runes.

Here is whats actually true:
I build solely to beat my own class SF champs. Dedicated gears and dedicated stats. (Though I don't have enough gear yet -_-)
Then for raiders I use other dedicated gears and it's enough.
For other classes like mages and xbow knights ~I don't have enough gears yet.
Then for any game arena modes I gear for average statistics.
My max runes are face and neck. Everything else that I use is 80+
Therefore I am actually missing 8% pvp resistance.

Most players just max there runes as fast as they can. I pvp most of that time away. It took me a while to actually know exactly how to stat my SF champ, I've done tons of resets. Most players still don't understand the concept of optimization. If not all, most of the community still randomly put their characters stats together based off what they feel like works and hope for the best.


Edited by henrycao, 25 January 2018 - 09:46 PM.

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#14 henrycao

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:36 PM

Exaltion ~

The concept of optimization explained:

  • A full build is the interactive outcome of 3 things: Skill Tree, Stats and Equipment.
  • You beat your own class with the most effective skill tree, stat page, and equipment against that class. (pushing for extremes if need be)
  • You beat other classes by equipping the most effective equipments against that class. Consider your skill order as it can have a huge impact on damage per second and survival. Consider having several Offense/Defense elemental equipments.
  • You gear for relative statistical values in PvP game arena.

 

What not to do

  • You don't stat at random or based off what feels right
  • You don't skill build at random or based off what feels right
  • You don't build equipment at random or based off what feels right

 

What to do

  1. Always start with the Skill Tree. (Include self buffs) Locate your SP by upgrading the most effective skills & passives first to then the least effective skills & passives. If SP becomes an issue, consider having some skills & passives at level 1 if level 2 doesn't not scale well.
     
  2. Equip the gears that you plan to use versus your own class. Then start increasing your Stats to the minimal amount for your weapon requirement. Equip that weapon. Then think about your classes primary self-buff. (Example: Hawker is dodge buff, Dealer is accuracy buff, Soldier is attack power buff, Mage is broken no buff or buff)
     
  3. (Without being on self-buffs) Start adding the classes main Stat slowly and record the amount increase in value per UP to your class (Hawker is dodge, Dealer is accuracy, Soldier is attack power, Mage is broken no buff or buff). Write down on paper the increase per UP over many times. Then with the numbers written down, try to calculate the average of increase per 1 UP.
     
  4. THE INTEGRATION OF SKILL, EQUIPMENT, STATS COME FROM OPTIMIZING CHARM WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT (Without being on self-buffs) Write down the % of your classes primary self buff. Then try to figure out the % increase for every Charm on your self-buff. ~lets say for example you add 10 Charm and got 00.07% increase to the self-buff. You would do 0.07%/10 = 0.007%. to check if this is exact, you could add more and see if their is further digits, maybe like a 0.00715% that we don't know about. So then now we take that 0.007% x (example:2000 accuracy dealer) = 14 accuracy for 1 Charm.
     
  5. Note that increasing your main classes stat also scales the buff as well. Having a higher amount of accuracy, dodge, attackpower and whatever can increase the scaling amount you get per investment into Charms buff. So it would be wise to first do the main stat before Charm.
     
  6. You ratio everything!!! Find out exactly how much of something each stat gives... lets say a hawker for example scaled the dodge with Dex and ratio'd the Charm. Next he might consider attackpower ratio Dex to Str and Dex to Sen. etc~~ Or if a dealer scaled the accuracy with Con and Charm ratio, he can also move on to attack power ratio with his current Con to whatever is his secondary attackpower stat is.
     
  7. To ratio the numbers, you would want to look at how much SP it requires to up, versus how much SP to up on another stat and get the same value with the same SP cost.

This is what most people do not do.. With this post, I hope people start maximizing their classes potential so we can all know whether classes are balanced or not.


Edited by henrycao, 25 January 2018 - 11:45 PM.

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