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Mana Shield Damage Cap Interaction


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#51 Ierire

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 04:10 PM

In my opinion mage shield are fine at it is and if you time it right they wont be able to cast it again.
Though mage have alot of advantage on their skill tree such as mspeed passive,range,mutes,stuns and crowd control. These skills probably the one makes mage looks OP,they cast stun or mute on enemy or run around to give them time to recast the shield, but the shield itself OP? Nah
Mage is a class that mostly depend on their shield to survive. An fs cant really safe mage without a good shield just by heals. You wont be able to spam heal mage coz they die too fast without it.Purifying if they are muted stun or getting dots or even muting/sleeping the enemy are someways to help them.
In the other hand fs can safe raider even if they are ganged.
Raider double stealth cloack is the same as mage shield (its their way to survive)

a little cleric name acsis
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#52 5902130503124339250

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 04:24 PM

now everyone comes to say that the mana shield is not op, ahh Of course they all have mage and want to continue abusing it 


Edited by 5902130503124339250, 29 August 2018 - 04:25 PM.

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#53 Kilauae

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 04:32 PM

Sorry let me rephrase that, I got sidetracked. 

Yeah well cause it's not that tanky, sure somebody can survive better than others but that's just cause how they play. 

That's like having so many people complain and calling iBullzeye a runner in DP, because he isn't standing still letting himself get picked off and playing smart. Same way I "usually play" my mage but honestly I go on rambo missions for fun most of the time.

Everybody and every class is played differently and better at certain situations more than others.

 


Edited by Kilauae, 29 August 2018 - 04:37 PM.

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#54 Phish

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 04:56 PM

This thread has taken a divergence. Somethings to take note of:

 

 

Non mage players tend to think mages are overpowered, mage players think otherwise. If you asked players what they think the strongest class is in pvp, the majority of them will say mages are. So I'm curious, Mage players, what do you think is the strongest class in Rose currently? And I'm talking about overall and not just self buffed 1v1's. most pvp takes place with full buffs so that should be priority. Note though, the strongest class doesn't necessarily mean overpowered.  


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#55 Kilauae

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:13 PM

This thread has taken a divergence. Somethings to take note of:

 

 

Non mage players tend to think mages are overpowered, mage players think otherwise. If you asked players what they think the strongest class is in pvp, the majority of them will say mages are. So I'm curious, Mage players, what do you think is the strongest class in Rose currently? And I'm talking about overall and not just self buffed 1v1's. most pvp takes place with full buffs so that should be priority. Note though, the strongest class doesn't necessarily mean overpowered.  

 

Well I'm not just a mage player,

I don't think any specific class is the strongest, they all can generally be considered strong.

In terms of the highest damage burst in the shortest amount of time, Bourgs and Sword/Axe Champs take the cake easily.

 


Edited by Kilauae, 29 August 2018 - 05:14 PM.

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#56 Phish

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:15 PM

I mean strongest as in overall 'best', not just in terms of damage but all strengths and weaknesses considered. 


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#57 Kilauae

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:18 PM

Probably raider or champ


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#58 henrycao

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:34 PM

Your bias outright blows my mind. Here is footage of our PvP

MAGES OP

@Kilauae just face it, nothing your saying is realistic whatsoever.


Edited by henrycao, 29 August 2018 - 05:39 PM.

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#59 Kilauae

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:41 PM

... do you really not understand whats being discussed here..  Mages have had coldsnap for years... of course It's good vs champs... in a PvP...

That's me on pure PVP built...  with no accuracy passives....literally just for those PVP's.. and prior to that I lost dozens of times... 

How can you say its OP


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#60 henrycao

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:43 PM

Probably raider or champ

Seriously, Mages are overpowered, this is what mages do to champs on a regular basis. Coldsnap for 8seconds, and kill the target in 9~11 seconds.


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#61 Kilauae

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:47 PM

Really dude, I don't know 1 mage that uses a 8-sec coldsnap. When its almost a complete waste of points.

Once again your playing a champ, that relies on cleric support more than others. Crying about unbalanced matches in DP.

Coldsnap has existed for years, nobody has ever once complained about it lol... It's part of the skills on a mage.

You've beaten me too many times to count Mage VS Champ, even with coldsnap sometimes. 

Literally stop your crying, your doing a PVP vs the strongest counter class to a Champ and just tanked through like 10 skills meanwhile if you were near me I would've got dropped in a flash. Your argument just sounds rhetorical.

Champs are arguably the strongest class in this game.

 


Edited by Kilauae, 29 August 2018 - 06:00 PM.

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#62 henrycao

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 07:32 AM

@Kilauae
Meanwhile mages don't need to rely on any class in the game but itself. The video was to show how nothing your saying is realistic. Comparing a champ to a mage. I am simply showing how Mages will beat a Champion before he can even reciprocate. First you said, probably raider or champion as the best and then when I show you how mages wreck Champions, you say that champions arguably the strongest class in the game but clearly your far fetched.

By the way, I've beaten you before I admit, but that's because your always switching builds. What I had beaten was a bad build that you think works because when playing mage, the specs are so broken that you can freely play the class however you like and still have some degree of success with it. This isn't the case with other classes that are pretty much limited to 1 build/playstyle and expected to be weaker in general if played/built some other way.

​You being a mage main, of course you won't pin OP on yourself. It's bias.
Mages can 1vs1 any class in the game and win, stacking a 22~23k mana shield that can be refreshed every 6 seconds.
No other class in the game can rule all of 1v1 except mage. Every class has a counter class except for mage. An average 23k fortified mana shield negates 3,833 damage per second for 6 seconds but then gets refreshed and will continuously negate 3,833 damage every second. Literally every other class besides Mages will tell you that Mage is OP.​

Some how the developer managed to give mages such broken specs that they continuously remain on top of the PvP hierarchy with no other class that can contest them. It's outright unreasonable.


Edited by henrycao, 30 August 2018 - 10:51 AM.

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#63 watermelonnn

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 11:32 AM

bruh mages and bcs have always been champs direct, DIRECT counter...such a waste of time lol

 

Anyways yes i admit, mages are definitely the strongest in 1v1 situations or atleast the most annoying. 

 

coldsnap and shield never bothered me, what annoyed me more is the fact they can outrange a scout :D

 


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#64 henrycao

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 02:44 PM

bruh mages and bcs have always been champs direct, DIRECT counter...such a waste of time lol

 

Anyways yes i admit, mages are definitely the strongest in 1v1 situations or atleast the most annoying. 

 

coldsnap and shield never bothered me, what annoyed me more is the fact they can outrange a scout :D

At least when other classes get directly countered, they can at least do something, when its mage vs champ, the champ can't do anything. Just drops dead and does 0 total damage. Mages don't have a counter or weakness, they should be given one.


Edited by henrycao, 30 August 2018 - 02:54 PM.

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#65 Kilauae

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:14 PM

@Kilauae
Meanwhile mages don't need to rely on any class in the game but itself. The video was to show how nothing your saying is realistic. Comparing a champ to a mage. I am simply showing how Mages will beat a Champion before he can even reciprocate. First you said, probably raider or champion as the best and then when I show you how mages wreck Champions, you say that champions arguably the strongest class in the game but clearly your far fetched.

By the way, I've beaten you before I admit, but that's because your always switching builds. What I had beaten was a bad build that you think works because when playing mage, the specs are so broken that you can freely play the class however you like and still have some degree of success with it. This isn't the case with other classes that are pretty much limited to 1 build/playstyle and expected to be weaker in general if played/built some other way.

​You being a mage main, of course you won't pin OP on yourself. It's bias.
Mages can 1vs1 any class in the game and win, stacking a 22~23k mana shield that can be refreshed every 6 seconds.
No other class in the game can rule all of 1v1 except mage. Every class has a counter class except for mage. An average 23k fortified mana shield negates 3,833 damage per second for 6 seconds but then gets refreshed and will continuously negate 3,833 damage every second. Literally every other class besides Mages will tell you that Mage is OP.​

Some how the developer managed to give mages such broken specs that they continuously remain on top of the PvP hierarchy with no other class that can contest them. It's outright unreasonable.

 

I said "rely on cleric support more than others" Is what I repeatedly said. Stop replying to my statements out of personal issues or anger and actually know what you're reading before you reply.

You havn't even once replied on generally how easy it is to kill a mage.

Your literally using a video of our PVP, when I made a pure PVP build only for champs after losing dozens prior to it without coldsnap or even lost some with it. 

No, your not just beating me because I was switching builds. You beat me because in a head on PVP match champions are powerful. And the shield itself isn't hard to take down; the shield was the topic. You were crying about coldsnap and nobody even acknowledged that cause its part of their skill tree that has existed for like what 10 years or more? Get real buddy. Just cause it's amazing in PVP's vs specifically champs doesn't mean it needs to removed. lol.

 

I said raiders and champions overall were the most powerful  given all their strengths and weaknesses, your such a simpleton It's giving me a headache

 

Champions:

  • In general have high HP and can tank. 
  • Strength, Attack Power, Defense, HP buff's to not only itself but to the entire group.
  • You have a movement speed passive.
  • Accuracy generally isn't a problem.
  • Berserk (Immune to stuns/sleeps) + damage amplifier
  • They benefit from the defensive part of runes the most, Crit defense/HP/HP recovery rate
  • They benefit the most from AoE Range runes. 
  • Defense/AttackPower/Movement Speed AoE debuffs.
  • Sacrifice/Taunt
  • Arguably dealing the highest skill damage and quickest out of any class.
  • Depending on what tree you went, you can have Mute aswell.
  • Benefits the most from the neutrality of skills.

Raiders:

  • Dodge class
  • High movement speed
  • Cloak and Stealth abilities
  • Dex, Movement Speed, Dodge, AttackSpeed, Crit Focus buffs to not only itself but the entire group.
  • Ability to obtain very high critical damage/critical rate
  • 6 Damage overtime skills
  • Also have a very high damage burst + heaps of damage overtime skills.
  • Sleep Knife 100% , Sucker Punch 100%
  • Benefit from the neutrality of some skills.

 

Here the general knowledge concerning a mage

 

Mages:

  • Mana shield is the only defense they have; Its a skill, you have to actually cast it; Drains MP and gets weaker within each cast.
  • HP ultimately doesn't even matter on this class
  • Having 20~ even 35k MP wouldn't even be enough to actually notice a difference.
  • In General majority of the skills actually do have a slow animation compared to other classes
  • High accuracy 
  • No Party buffs except a self damage enhancement one, The Int buff (Is clearly useless)
  • Generally the majority of the skills in the trees are useless. Look at nearly every mage, they're all wind builds for a reason: The movement speed to avoid getting stun locked and dropped so quickly. The dodge debuffs help vs raiders. The AoE Stun isn't even 100%; Its at 50% and 70% for the PVP Version, the other AoE stun is at 20%... The single target stun skill is 40%. There's a 100% close range stun skill that generally people don't even get because that defeats the purpose of using range as an advantage and in general a waste of points.
  • Has 2 neutral skills, and they're weak. 
  • Majority of the time redpots don't even help cause by the time that shield drops it's just not going to save you.
  • The only passives are Accuracy(Nearly every class has those) Max MP/Consumption Passives(Makes sense it is a class based on MP), Skill Power and Attack Power (Nearly every class has those).
  • The mute's we have aren't even nearly at a 100% success rate

Don't worry I included the things mage's benefit from in a indirect way because most of them aren't even solid enough when they're nearly all around a 50% success rate, and no your Coldsnap isn't something worth noting.

I'm a main on not only a mage, I use to only play an artisan. It's the most defenseless class and I never once complained about getting cold snapped, nor getting dropped by your champ or any champ in a couple of seconds(Or any class to be honest). I play raider as well, I don't complain about all this non-sense that you do. Because every class can be played differently and more effectively under certain situations. 


Edited by Kilauae, 30 August 2018 - 03:39 PM.

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#66 Phish

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:48 PM

Katar Raiders are strong in pvp, yeah, everyone can agree on that. They're the most played class in the game both pvp and pvm, if there is a class that is a candidate for nerf's they would be worthy. I used to the think katar raiders were just the downright most overpowered class in the game when I returned and all of my characters were weak. Simply because they excel on preying on easy kills and there are so many people playing them. Over time though I realize they do have some weaknesses and there are certain situations where they are less strong than other classes. My argument is simply that mages have the most strengths and the least weaknesses of any class in pvp which is why I put them on the top.

 

 

The one thing I can maybe understand saying champs are among the best in pvp is simply due to their party buffs, and of course they are a huge advantage for a team to have when the opposing team doesn't. However, I really can't see how you say champs are overpowered in 1v1's especially playing as a mage yourself of all classes. When you are listing their strengths, you do realize that some of those are specific to a weapon type,  as in, saying they benefit the most from aoe runes really only applies to spear champs. Spear and Sword are the only class in the entire game without a stun. where as the entire mage skill tree is accessible, of course you don't have skill points for everything. 

 

 

Theres two types of 1v1's to consider: Self buffed and full buffed. I will give you the benefit of the doubt considering champs are going to be slightly better overall in self buff pvp's due to the fact that they have some of the strongest buffs. I really wish people would weight full buff pvp's higher simply because the majority of pvp is done with full buffs. (buff pots atleast).

 

In an actual full buff pvp spear champs lose to almost everything 1v1. Yes you can build them to potentially beat a raider or scout, and maybe an artisan but they will auto lose to mages, battle clerics, and knights, and also lose to launcher bourg. The classes I listed that they can beat.... doesn't mean they are at an advantage, it just means its possible. Spear champ's are really not at an advantage against anything 1v1. 

 

 

Sword and Axe Champ are better in 1v1 situations, but still have a terrible matchup against mages, battle clerics and knights. Axe champ is the only type that can beat a battle cleric 1v1 but even then they are unflavored and need to get lucky. I also don't think any champ can beat an equally strong knight 1v1. 

 

Sword Champ is the best against raiders of the 3, Axe is a bit better vs. dealers. All 3 can potentially beat scouts but can also lose to them. 

 

A champ is 'easy' to kill for any damage dealing class,and by easy I mean easier than raiders for everything. 

 


Edited by Phish, 30 August 2018 - 03:55 PM.

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#67 Kilauae

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 04:28 PM

I said they're overpowered in terms of a head on PVP because they have BERSERK, which is a skill that amplifies their damage and they become immune to nearly any sleep/stun.

Sword champs have a 6 second mute (which is well over enough time to kill a muted mage)

Spear champ's can be deadly in PVP's (You haven't seen one cause the only ones playing it are Sacrifice/Party buff/Debuff trolls used in DP matches)

Axe champ's deal massive amount of damage.

The AoE runes don't only apply to spears, they very as well apply to any of them especially Sword champs.

Yeah sure they would have a hard time with mages, but it really depends on the player itself playing that particular class or mage. 

But I can go play my artisan right now and never beat a well played Champ in a PVP. But I can beat any mage with my artisan.

 

This discussion was mainly about the mana shield and it's clearly not as tanky as it was claimed to be. And How easily it is to actually drop it. And the dozens of other variables that play into the function of the shield.

Yeah we can use any given situation and circumstance to justify any class point blank period is "easily killable"

If any logical honest person was to be asked what would you prefer to have in your group out of any class mentioned, It would be a champion. 

You brought up what the most powerful class would be given its weaknesses and strengths.

I sure as hell wouldn't pick a mage over having a champion on my team. Defiantly wouldn't pick having a mage over a raider either.

Why? Read the bullets in my previous post. 

 

  


Edited by Kilauae, 30 August 2018 - 06:06 PM.

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#68 henrycao

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 07:47 AM

@Kilauae
Well you took down your own video off youtube because I reshared it to prove my point of how tanky mages are but then you removed it off your youtube channel. Zzz

 

Well anyways, lets say the average mage has a 25k mana shield with buffs.
25,000 mana shield divided by a 6 second cooldown
means the mage can effectively negate about 4.2k damage per second. So if you do less than 4.2k damage/second, you will not even begin to touch their HP bar. This is why mages can 1v2, and sometimes even 1v3 and still win. Negating 4.2k damage per second means that only sustained damage beyond 4.2k for 6 seconds touches health. However, in the hypothetical scenario that you do manage to pull it off, mage can just use 1 pot and recover about half of their hp total. Then they refresh their mana shield and your officially back to the beginning, struggling to break their shield.


Edited by henrycao, 31 August 2018 - 08:33 AM.

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#69 Kilauae

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:57 AM

I took the video down because it served its purpose. The video did not portray how tanky they were, in fact it was a clear game-play instance showing how easy it actually was to break. Something you can't provide because you know 99% of what your saying is a bunch of BS.

 

Are u incompetent in understanding anything?

You are making Rose Online seem way more complex than it actually is, which is your problem to begin with.

There's dozens of variables that fall under that but your too stubborn and arrogant to acknowledge those facts.

How is that so hard to understand when your sitting here trying to give people a math class on dividing the shield up by dmg per sec.

Or trying to argue a damage cap that plays no noticeable factor in this game.

Anybody playing knows none of this plays any sort of factor in how its played, at least with common sense.

What I truly don't understand is how your first entire statement was concerning coldsnap on mages, you never once mentioned the shield because you know very well how easy it is to kill a mage and take the shield down. But yeah you want to come onto someone' elses thread about a whole different topic to act on.

Mages can 1v2? and 1v3? Really...

Okay go find a mage and PVP them with your champ and another person. Then do the 1v3 and show us the results.

Show us this 4.2k/per sec. Don't forget to not use a Chiv. Set so you lose HP but receive the almighty lower damage cap because you do know Damage cap plays a factor in Rose according to Exaltion.

 

 


Edited by Kilauae, 31 August 2018 - 09:57 AM.

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#70 Phish

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 12:13 PM

The damage cap still plays a role, just not in every situation. Any class using a luminous set and landing a crit on a big physical skill will be able to hit a champ for more damage than a mage simply because the mage is getting hit for the cap. The champ will certainly be able to be hit harder if they don't have pvp defense runes. The 2nd highest defense class potentially gets hit for more physical damage than the lowest defense class, it's flawed from a game design perspective. Exaltion referring to lowering hp to take less damage is just an example, not that it's a viable strategy. It's still good to have hp obviously especially vs dot's and weaker, fast attacks. 

 

This thread got super blown out of proportion and wasn't even supposed to indicate 'Mana Shield is Overpowered" I don't even necessarily think they shield itself is overpowered, I would say the Mage class as a whole is the strongest overall in pvp. 


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#71 Kilauae

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 01:22 PM

So you think Damage cap plays a vital noticeable role? 

Are we playing the same game.

So your saying If I were to use 2 Lumi or a full set on my raider, I'd deal more damage to a champ simply because the damage cap?

and the More HP you have the more damage can be done?

 

Your right it has gone out of proportion because I'm scrolling through casually and read the dumbest things ever on the forums and nobody else has an honest voice about particular things.

Mages are indeed wonderful at PVP, but so are nearly any class.

I can beat mages on the daily playing raider and can pull it off playing an artisan which is literally the weakest defense class in the game, and have lost to champ's more times I can count on my toes and fingers. 

Every class has its pros and cons, you can't simply just say Oh mages have this and that.

So this is why they're the strongest.

What happens when mages get stunned? or slept? muted?

Not even just in PVP's but in general.

They most certainly 89% of the time die or right after.

What happens when another class does? Well yeah your in a tight situation but your HP Pots actually do wonders. 

I can't even redpot half the time lol, and It wouldn't do anything if that shield is down. 

At the rate damage is done its nearly unenjoyable playing a mage for your "average casual player"

I have countless clanmates who tried playing mage and literally said it's too hard; they die too fast.

But It's okay lets complain on forums about the "Specific In Particular" Mage players  "using specific situations and circumstances" who excel at the class. Just like anybody playing any class would.

 

For starters why are we speaking upon something so insignificant when there are dozens of other classes that so badly need a revamp. 

 

Scouts

Artisans

Knights (Are completely broken)

 


Edited by Kilauae, 31 August 2018 - 01:41 PM.

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#72 Phish

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 01:36 PM

You just answered your own question. If you are 3 shotting people you're likely hitting them for the cap. if you got people for the cap.... its relevant. It's only irrelevant when damage output is low, like it was 4 years ago.

Again.... if you have high enough damage output you can potentially hit a champ for more damage in a single crit than you would a mage.
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#73 Kilauae

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 01:54 PM

No man, the real issue is people  thinking too far into the flawed game system in general concerning a statistic that plays no noticeable role in the PVP aspect. 

Even in terms of skill damage 1k is nothing.

I can login my raider right now; and skill a champ and do less damage than I would on a mage. 

And there's about 5,000 hp difference.

 

 

 


Edited by Kilauae, 31 August 2018 - 03:09 PM.

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#74 Feuer

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 04:22 PM

The argument is the following.

 

Champion HP: 50-65k ish

Mage HP: 15-20k ish + 25-30k Barrier [EffectiveHP or eHP] total: 40k-50k

 

Maximum Hit Champion can take:  22,500 ~ 29,250 [45%]

Maximum Hit Mage can take: 6,750 ~ 9,000 [45%]

 

Probability of Champion being cap-hit: medium

Probability of Mage being cap-hit: medium-high

 

[Numbers below are single target high damage spells, not splash/AoE DoT tics etc]

Number of hits champion can soak using own skills: 3 if cap, more likely 5~6

Number of hits mage can soak using own skills:  6 or so [assuming all hit-cap] without recasting barrier.

 

The odds:

Gives mage has range, and Champion has minimal range, Mage can more quickly and readily hit a Champion 5~6 times than on average a champion will be able to get 6 attacks without Mage recasting Barrier.

CC, DoT's, AoE splash damage, and Group fights all obfuscate the regularity of these numbers, but they're on average, accurate.

 

That's the argument being made here. Functionally, Champions should lose slightly more often than they should win against a Mage. But the disparity is above that, which is why people are talking about it. Which is ironic seeing as the rise in Mage players coincides with the rise in champion + bourge players to combat the astronomically high number of Raiders in the game. Should Mages be brought down to a fair level, Raiders who swapped to Mages will just go back to Raiders, champions will get a bit more favor, ....and Dealers with still be trash. Yay.

 

Are we done here? Because that's the only sensible information I was able to pull from this thread after leaving it a few days, hoping it would just die.


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#75 rage20

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 02:55 PM

bump @Genesis @Dragonlark


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