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#1 MilkyThief

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:03 PM

giphy.gif

 

So this thread is not to start drama, though it will follow it naturally. Over the last couple weeks, a new/old copy of an edited GRF has been being passed around like candy. People are using this edited GRF file to remove animation delay from certain skills, thus giving them an advantage in PVP and PVM. These edits are seen all over WoE/PVP, and even PVM, allowing Dorams to cast Picky Peck faster, and Geneticists to cast cart cannon faster then normally possible. In my opinion, these edits are overall harmful to the general population. Normally these client edits would be classified as "illegal edits" according to the thread posted by Campitor here.

 

The amount of people using these edits seems to be at an all time high, with not many people attempting to even hide the fact or deny that they are using these edits.

 

So my ask is as follows, either legalize it across the board for everyone, or actually enforce your own rules and ban/punish the players that choose to use this client edit.

 

I know this is a widely debated topic, but I would like to hear opinions from both sides, pro and against NDL, as it effects all players involved in PVP and PVM. We all still enjoy this game for one reason or another, we should all want it to succeeded and do well to ensure a future for Ragnarok.   

 

I ask that this remains a calm discussion but I get that this is a sensitive topic, but please try to remain civil.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I am fully aware of what is going to said to me about this, and I am willing to have a rational debate about this legality or morality of using it. If your argument is I am salty about losing in WoE, that is not what I am going for but if you want to keep thinking that you may. Thanks,


Edited by MilkyThief, 01 May 2019 - 04:17 PM.

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#2 Nirvanna21

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:04 PM

If you can't enforce it, make it available for everyone.


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#3 ninJedi

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:34 PM

Is this why bathory is in lowti next week hahah

I think editing an actual in-game animation just to give yourself an advantage over others would qualify as cheating

It's already enough that you get hard hitting skills. Making them way more spammable this way is just going overboard.
But that's just my opinion
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#4 nyyaan

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:39 PM

For PvE, most monsters already melt. I don't think legit people even need cheats. Even my RG which is not commonly played because it is weak can kill most MvPs easily.

 

For PvP, well … edits do affect a lot, but do people still go in PvP? It's like Rock Paper Scissors there.

 

WoE is dead and you're asking GMs to actually ban cheaters? We all know what is not enforced is not punishable.

 

I dont mind legalizing it at this point. I mean, I've shown many times that Justice rekt'ed Known cheaters in WoE ... ez'sily. Legalizing it or not, WoE wont be affected that much. NDL or not doesn't matter if cheaters get one shot  :heh:  :heh:  :heh: 


Edited by nyyaan, 01 May 2019 - 04:40 PM.

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#5 Ashuckel

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:58 PM

pretty sure every other game out there treats a situation like this as cheating.

But enforcing it is the big deal here.
You know it's gotten really bad when you don't even bother reporting it anymore because you are very certain no action will take place. Heck, i'm pretty confident to say that most ppl that played in any competitive scenario know at least one person that uses/has used it already.
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#6 Diskence

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 05:54 PM

I'll just speak about my personal experience. I have reported people before because they straight up make woe videos of grf edits bypassing transformation scrolls because if you woe you would know, I love using Poring/Devi transformation scrolls. I provided the person's video and provided a video from my point of view where I am a poring. I received nothing other than "We will investigate" and "when a character first appears on the screen it shows the normal character sprite first". 

 

I think this speaks enough about the situation itself, either you can be known as someone who doesn't use it or just use it. Because afaik nothing is going to be enforced or there are any plans to enforce.

 

But expecting GMs to openly pass these things out is a pretty lol comment.


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#7 DarkOrinus

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 06:45 PM

when people are fine with tolerating something because guilty of use, but enforces other things strictly that's suffering the same case due to being in the same damn grey area situation

smh, do what you guys want
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#8 Scuba

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 07:28 PM

It is against the rules, if you catch someone doing it you can report them. If they are spamming faster than possible it should be apparent. The stance is that it is against the rules.

 

It is enforceable. If they don't enforce it then feel free to use it. Just don't post self-incriminating images obviously. If you do use it you should understand that there is a risk. There are many people to which this risk is acceptable.

 

Saying that they should openly allow it is ridiculous. If they were going to do that, they would just build all the features into the normal grf. You can't just say "auto potting is legal" and not provide an autopot. Its still unfair because people who don't have anyone they can get the cheat from will still be at a disadvantage even with a rule stating it is ok to use. If they want people to be able to do things that a modified client can do they would just change their client. Think of all the compromised accounts there would be if people thought it was ok to cheat and download grfs from sketchy sites. Its too much of a losing situation to consider. Puts players at risk.

 

Would be like going to Detroit and being like "Hey what can we do about all this theft?" "Idea - lets make theft legal since everyone is already doing it anyway - smile."


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#9 Nirvanna21

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 07:30 PM

It is against the rules, if you catch someone doing it you can report them. If they are spamming faster than possible it should be apparent. The stance is that it is against the rules.

 

It is enforceable. If they don't enforce it then feel free to use it. Just don't post self-incriminating images obviously. If you do use it you should understand that there is a risk. There are many people to which this risk is acceptable.

 

Saying that they should openly allow it is ridiculous. If they were going to do that, they would just build all the features into the normal grf. You can't just say "auto potting is legal" and not provide an autopot. Its still unfair because people who don't have anyone they can get the cheat from will still be at a disadvantage even with a rule stating it is ok to use. If they want people to be able to do things that a modified client can do they would just change their client. Think of all the compromised accounts there would be if people thought it was ok to cheat and download grfs from sketchy sites. Its too much of a losing situation to consider. Puts players at risk.

 

Would be like going to Detroit and being like "Hey what can we do about all this theft?" "Idea - lets make theft legal since everyone is already doing it anyway - smile."

 

Difference is, there are things in place for theft.

 

Literally nothing is done with this.


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#10 freddym

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 07:49 PM

There are two types of people in this world. 1.) People who do evil things. 2.) People who see evil things being done and don't do anything about it. Also is it cheating if everyone is doing it? :hmm:


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#11 DarkOrinus

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 08:08 PM

The stance is that it is against the rules.


be like this guy, as long as he's consistent with every other thing thats in the same bloody situation that -_-s us up
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#12 yauhoilun

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 08:18 PM

Deliver new content first, fix cheating after

Who cares about cheating with the current state of game
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#13 DarkOrinus

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 08:33 PM

Deliver new content first, fix cheating after

Who cares about cheating with the current state of game


to answer your statement, let me borrow another statement from an ^_^ i dislike very much

FIx tHe RoOT oF tHe pRobLEm fUrST
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#14 Scuba

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 09:33 PM

I just mean that just because something is hard to enforce you shouldn't make it allowed.

I think it would be unrealistic to expect them to give immunity to people breaking the rules. Botting and gold selling is pretty unenforced too. Maybe they should allow 3rd party gold sales as well.

 

Realistically we know that the amount of qualified individuals on the GM team there are to make the distinction between a cheater and someone with insane gear setups is basically 0-1 peoples. Is it incredibly likely you'll get away with it. I would consider Nirvanna and myself quite qualified to assess whether no delay is being used or not and even we couldn't come to an agreement on a specific case. There are a lot of interactions that can explain away these types of allegations.

 

Its just like driving on the freeway. 10/10 drivers go above the speed limit, but that doesn't make it legal. And 1/1000 of them will get a punishment. Its the same thing with illegally modifying your car for racing. Nobody will know if whats under the hood until you get caught using it and get checked out. I wouldn't expect the police commissioner to publicly go on the news and say that they won't be enforcing speed limits because everyone breaks them anyway.


Edited by Scuba, 01 May 2019 - 09:58 PM.

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#15 deforte

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 09:56 PM

cheating is a like a pollution in the head of its own then you corrupt your soul from the desire to something like more power where you become power hungry animal then you die in hell.

 

btw, i played CS:GO were they banned 600k users cos of cheating and until today they are plenty of cheaters. thinking that they are part of online games population.


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#16 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 11:56 PM

if they really cared about animation, the option to hardlock it with CD like they did with DB is always available. Don’t want picky peck to do 7 a second? Put CD.

Honestly NDL grf isn’t that huge a problem because it doesn’t bypass any real server side limitations (like your aspd and delay). The issue only comes with skills that include hard animation that needs to be completed before another skill can be used. Example, DB, Cart Cannon.

Most of these skills’ so-called hard animation can also be cancelled by just walking right after using skill so the only diff is in the speed of spam when not moving. If comparing the rate of skills coming out from NDL movements to someone with great ping, with no cast time and using walk spam etc..., it isn’t a big difference.

Again, the best method to enforce is like what’s done to DB. If they really didn’t want anyone to spam a certain skill more than certain amount of times a second, put in place the 0.2 CD or sth.

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 01 May 2019 - 11:59 PM.

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#17 Zayaan

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 12:53 AM

If comparing the rate of skills coming out from NDL movements to someone with great ping, with no cast time and using walk spam etc..., it isn’t a big difference.

 

[Removed]

 

Video is from euRO/fRO. I think it's ok to post it here but Cinnamod may disagree. We'll see.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 02 May 2019 - 05:45 AM.
Mod Edit: Removed URL.

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#18 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 01:01 AM

ok i guess i might have based on different standards cuz we already have the db CD here. i would suggest also just adding the CD to skills like Cart Cannon or whatever else is supposed to have a hard animation.

This leaves zero gray zones for people to meddle with.
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#19 junioran

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 01:21 AM

I suggest everyone who thinks ndl spam is not a big deal to try woeing this saturday. There's no amount of dancing that can put you in the same league as a ndler.
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#20 deforte

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 01:40 AM

...

 

Video is from euRO/fRO. I think it's ok to post it here but Cinnamod may disagree. We'll see.

 

if woe and pvp is a player they will be killed at their every respawn lol


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#21 freddym

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 04:04 AM

I suggest everyone who thinks ndl spam is not a big deal to try woeing this saturday.

 

True I feel like we need to lookout for the people who actually WoE / PvP because....lets be honest. :ho:


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#22 KriticalAssassin

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:21 AM

[Removed]

 

Video is from euRO/fRO. I think it's ok to post it here but Cinnamod may disagree. We'll see.

Cinnamod disagreed ;(


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#23 Ashuckel

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:26 AM

why tho, it's from another official server '-'


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#24 azumak1

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:52 AM

Another big thing to keep in mind with all of this is that merging a .grf can do a whole lot to a player's experience. I theorized the following possibility in that scam warning pinned thread and there's no reason why this scenario can't happen.

 

Say a scammer grabs this commonly-traded .grf and modifies it further so that a very uncommon player sprite is replaced with the GM sprites. Something like Adventurer's Towel or a Santa Transformation Scroll's sprites. They pass this grf off to some 'friends' and they merge it, all happy that they can spam their skills faster. A few weeks go by and the scammer approaches their target after popping a scroll or w/e and certainly appears to be a legit GM, might even use some social engineering by targeting guildies.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that not everyone shares out of the goodness of their heart and we still see the same scams on RO for a decade+ for a reason: they work often enough to be a viable technique. This goes double for passing around 'grey-area' modifications such as these.


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#25 Fuuton

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 09:11 AM

i think the visuals side of enhancements is fine enough to be able to see certain things, but i draw the line at actual performance enhancements (though oddly enough, even visual enhancements technically affect a player's physical 'performance')

i was actually passed a copy of that file years ago myself, but chose not to bother using it. im pretty sure its either rotting on my external or i deleted it manually, dont remember and honestly i dont care either lol. im content enough with the fact that my dancing skills are on point, so i never did bother to sample it personally despite having it but i saw more than my fair share of videos and actual people using it in game.

personal stance.. if you really have to use a performance enhancement... do i really need to go into sex jokes here? :heh: its too overpowered. most people who use it in woe ruin the scene, because they like to talk [Removed] to the people they defeat with their no-delay edit and then proceed to act like they're some sorta OP gamer god, when really they likely would've gotten dropped if that edit wasn't active. too many narcissistic god-complex types use that edit and just add to the cesspool of toxicity that has become woe.

there's no challenge in enabling any form of "god-mode". you only cheat yourself from discovering what your actual player abilities really are - a concept too many gamers in too many games fail to realize.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 02 May 2019 - 09:20 AM.
Mod Edit: Do not attempt to bypass the word filter please.

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