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Don't walk that evil road


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#1 Sera

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:21 AM

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The difference in subscription model games and microtransaction model games is more... complex than the obvious.
In order for a subscription based game to make money, they must directly market their product. You play the game because the game is good and fun.
In order for a microtransaction based game to make money, they market a metaproduct, which gives them an obvious advantage. They create a situation of disadvantage and introduce things to combat this artificial disadvantage.

As much as one can claim that it's just like selling vitamins to people who are already healthy, those that take them will be more robust, while those that do not, will not suffer, but will not enjoy the same privileges; there is temptation there. The temptation to make a person ill, and then sell them the cure to the illness you gave them.

After all that's been done up to this point, this sound like a really stupid thing to ask for, but I think it's necessary that someone ask anyway:
When RO goes Free to Play, and is based off of the Kafra shop, please do not neglect the game itself, and please implement cash shop items ethically.
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#2 HRdevil

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:25 AM

It's not cool to see people upgrading their sh!t with no risk on the same server without using enriched D: nor them having drop penalty again, in the same server.
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#3 soudou

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:41 AM

When RO goes Free to Play, and is based off of the Kafra shop, please do not neglect the game itself, and please implement cash shop items ethically.


There will still be subscriptions and benefits thereof, i think without sub it basically becomes like Valk server rates/nerfs/missing NPCs etc. I think "F2P" is just basically to help boost the other servers population as a playerbase dynamic re-working rather than completely a profit re-working. They said in the Ustream chat they "hope many still subscribe" and I think for quite a few on Premiums its likely they'll just see it as a "hey I can do a one-off payment for alt accounts now than monthly". Thats also why they'll be boosting benefits of subscriptions and they mentioned some future plans for subscriptions such as getting updates sooner I think whilst others would need to purchase a key, like the Moscovia Key thing (wasn't here when they added Moscovia but heard Valk had to buy a key if they wanted it as early as Premium servers), or wait awhile longer to get it free. Can't remember where I heard that idea (maybe Ustream chat or somewhere else). So subscription plans will still be around.

So long as they keep Kafra Shop optional or make it so other players can get the Kafra stuff by other means in-game (e.g. vend/trade) or after some exclusivity period (e.g. Kafra Shop only for 1~4 weeks). And hopefully they fix game system flaws in-game rather than with Kafra Shop as a bandaid (e.g. the upgrade rates not matching the new upgrade limits).

Edited by soudou, 31 January 2011 - 10:43 AM.

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#4 Daray

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:43 AM

If they don't keep it ethically correct I'm pretty sure that people who don't buy stuff at all will soon give up rather than give in to to temptation.
With this lack of players, the people that do buy a lot will have nobody to boast to and stop playing too.
So for all our sakes it is best that whatever they do with the premium accounts and future kafra items is handled with a lot of care.

Posted Image
Sorry, I can't seem to hear you behind this large pile of money.


edit: with Premium Accounts introduced, the difference between standard player and KP player for XP gain becomes huge

Edited by Daray, 31 January 2011 - 10:45 AM.

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#5 Sera

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:50 AM

Well, I'm just seeing things like kRO introducing cash items to allow mechanics to summon their mados, and to me, this just seems... wrong.

You shouldn't design a class with an inherent disadvantage, and then sell them cash shop items to make up for it.

The cash shop should be used to raise those who choose to use it above the norm, it should not be required to attain the norm.
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#6 soudou

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:04 AM

Well, I'm just seeing things like kRO introducing cash items to allow mechanics to summon their mados, and to me, this just seems... wrong.

You shouldn't design a class with an inherent disadvantage, and then sell them cash shop items to make up for it.

The cash shop should be used to raise those who choose to use it above the norm, it should not be required to attain the norm.



Never played Mechanic so not very informed about Mados but that does sound rather lame. They should make it like the pet system and you just store the Mado in a case, as if the suit had gone Transformers into a little cube or something. Then like a pet you just double-click to pop it back out.
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#7 WanderingCat

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:13 AM

Never played Mechanic so not very informed about Mados but that does sound rather lame. They should make it like the pet system and you just store the Mado in a case, as if the suit had gone Transformers into a little cube or something. Then like a pet you just double-click to pop it back out.


Like this?

Posted Image



.
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#8 ZeroTigress

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:14 AM

I concur wholeheartedly. This is the main reason why free-to-play games inevitably become pay-to-win games. I have yet to come across one that has decent basic gameplay with bonus perks. It's always half-assed basic gameplay and it's only decent if you pay. With subscription-based games, I know that the gameplay is decent at least. I can only imagine what RO will turn into 5 more years down the road and it isn't pretty.
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#9 GuardianTK

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:14 AM

Like this?

Posted Image



.

Iron Man suits > Mado Gear
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#10 ZeroTigress

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:17 AM

Iron Man suits > Mado Gear

A plastic Dinobot Transformers figure is better than Madogear.
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#11 sukidayo

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:18 AM

If they don't keep it ethically correct I'm pretty sure that people who don't buy stuff at all will soon give up

people who dont have the means to buy (no credit card, no money, etc) would have not other choice but to quit. foreign players who can buy have the problem of exchange rate (too expensive). there are other means to earn points, but its too much trouble and often those third party sites are scams.
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#12 SidleyBear

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:35 PM

In my personal and educated opinion there WILL be items that will feel as if they are over priced and over powered etc

Will just be up to us to tell the GM's whats our concerns and just deal with it

At the end of the day they are a company and need to make money ethical or not ethical, but i'v played the game since I was a kid, I don't mind giving money to the company :D

If there ever becomes "Super leet killer weapon V500" i'll prob quit forever haha
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#13 Sera

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:38 PM

I do recognize the need to make money, and I've come to terms with Lucky Boxes and such, but when they deliberately design gameplay disadvantages for certain classes, that's just kind of... meh.

It would be like including cash-shop only components for all of the GX poisons.
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#14 SidleyBear

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:41 PM

I do recognize the need to make money, and I've come to terms with Lucky Boxes and such, but when they deliberately design gameplay disadvantages for certain classes, that's just kind of... meh.

It would be like including cash-shop only components for all of the GX poisons.



I suppose if they did that it would be a huge shot to the player base and I doubt it would happen XD

Though we just will have to see :D
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#15 Viri

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:56 PM

Huge slap in the face to player base? They do this constantly. I'd plan for something like this lol.
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#16 Daray

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:13 PM

If there ever becomes "Super leet killer weapon V500" i'll prob quit forever haha


You mean like giving KVM badges from lucky boxes bought with KP, then when the boxes are gone announce the ores that gave safety up to +10 are going to be going soon too, leaving a select few with +9 KVM weapons that are otherwise (near statistically) impossible to get?


But yeah, I hope it doesn't turn into "buy item X to level with grinding your face into these rusty razors for only 5seconds instead of 20mins".
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#17 mooMOOmoo

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:22 PM

I do recognize the need to make money, and I've come to terms with Lucky Boxes and such, but when they deliberately design gameplay disadvantages for certain classes, that's just kind of... meh.

It would be like including cash-shop only components for all of the GX poisons.


The pRO Kafra Shop sold EDPs and Acid Bombs.
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#18 Doddler

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:34 PM

Well, I'm just seeing things like kRO introducing cash items to allow mechanics to summon their mados, and to me, this just seems... wrong.

You shouldn't design a class with an inherent disadvantage, and then sell them cash shop items to make up for it.

The cash shop should be used to raise those who choose to use it above the norm, it should not be required to attain the norm.


This is a bit of a misunderstanding. They made kafra shop mounts for all jobs, using the item puts you on a mount. They didn't make one for Mechanic because they already technically have a mount, in the same way they didn't make special mount items fro Rune Knight, Royal Guard, and Ranger. They've stated that the cash shop mount item summoning Mado is actually a temporary measure until a proper mount can be created for the job. Whether that happens or not I dunno, but that's what they've said.

Personally, I like shop items that save me time and effort. Why is there no dungeon teleport scroll II? Can't we have a colored b-wing to take us to the new world towns? I'd be so all over that. But instead we get stuff like HE ore, which isn't about convenience, it's all about replacing in game systems with a better shop alternative, which directly lowers the value of what we do in game.

Edited by Doddler, 31 January 2011 - 03:50 PM.

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#19 Wiggles

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:09 PM

Personally, I like shop items that save me time and effort.


Yeh, I agree. That is all well and good.

However, I think the original post is talking about items that save you time and effort.. where they shouldn't need to.
For example, the developers remove an already existing feature, and make you pay for it.

Drop Rate Penalty Introduced - Want to get rid of it? Bubblegum
Turnin Quests removed - Want to participate? Buy a hat
EXP on Death - Want to stop? Insurance
Heal formula changed - Want to heal more? Regen Potion
Crap Rates for everything on Valk - Pay for Premium

Its not that bad on RO now. But it could potentially be.

Its terrible on LOTRO. The game is near unplayable past level 20 unless you pay for content.

Edited by Wiggles, 31 January 2011 - 04:10 PM.

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#20 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 05:01 PM

speaking of HD ores, when are they going to return? I have a +5 kvm katar that I want to upgrade just one more level and I'm not daring to even try to get it broken.
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#21 Kadnya

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:15 PM

According to the patch notes, the HD ores will come back and work on +7 items and up only.
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#22 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:17 PM

T_T just wait...I'll attempt to upgrade it with enriched, get it to +6 and then it will break on the next attempt to +7
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#23 porty

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:28 AM

For example, the developers remove an already existing feature, and make you pay for it.

Drop Rate Penalty Introduced - Want to get rid of it? Bubblegum
Turnin Quests removed - Want to participate? Buy a hat
EXP on Death - Want to stop? Insurance
Heal formula changed - Want to heal more? Regen Potion
Crap Rates for everything on Valk - Pay for Premium

Its not that bad on RO now. But it could potentially be.

Its terrible on LOTRO. The game is near unplayable past level 20 unless you pay for content.

I'm glad i'm not the only one who has noticed these subtle changes....
Kafra shops should be a benefit, not a necessity.

As for LOTRO, i believe the dropping player figures reflect what people think of that one...
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#24 Wiggles

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:28 AM

Yep.. I would not like to see RO in the situation LOTRO is in.
Well, LOTRO premium account is fine. So as long as us premium payers dont lose anything else, RO should be ok too.

Heres a chart, showing the populations on each server from just before F2P until now. You can see it spikes a LOT.. mainly due to the massive advertising and emails they send out twice a week to all accounts ever registered. But, you see that it has died off, mainly because the F2P'ers run out of content and aren't willing to pay. Although, the population is still DOUBLE what it was before F2P. And an interview I read with their marketing manager, its not all about population. The microtransaction model that the game has, has significantly increased their revenue. (more than double).

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#25 Anko

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:39 AM

people who dont have the means to buy (no credit card, no money, etc) would have not other choice but to quit. foreign players who can buy have the problem of exchange rate (too expensive). there are other means to earn points, but its too much trouble and often those third party sites are scams.


If you were playing premium then you were paying your subscription somehow. With f2p you have saved that money and can still play. You can choose to use what you paid monthly back into the game for kafra shop stuff or not. For kafra shop items which are tradeable, you can use zeny to buy from other players.

I know ppl that just started and they got premium access by paying via points earned from the surveys. While i do agree you need some common sense when doing them and have to remove the spyware once you get the points, the option is there. They got premium access then did enough to get some kafra shop stuff to get started. Imo if it is too much trouble then you don't need it. :D
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