97 replies to this topic

[Wiggles]

I think Xellie and Azzy hit the nail on the head there.

As a general rule, Kafra shop items are okay if they positively affect the buyer, but do not negatively affect anyone else.

Gum, Manuals - these are fine.
Light Blues - Alchemists now screwed. Not fine.

That is the 1 key factor that is holding LOTRO's F2P together. Every single cash shop item is a character benefit, and does not affect the market, other players, etc.

Some suggestions;
1) You know RCX is popular. Why not replicate it, and sell it as a premium service.
2) RODE and WikiDB are dying - You have the database, why not make your own and charge for it.
3) Stat Calcs are in decline, noone has an updated one - Employ someone to make one, charge for it. (Shameless Plug: I'm currently writing one in C#)
4) Everyone is demanding a test server - Make one and charge a premium fee to enter.
5) Some non-official servers have auto-loot - Why not make it a premium service?
6) The ingame auction house is terrible. The forums are terrible. Why not either FIX IT and charge KP to list, or make a web-based one and have it as an optional premium service.
7) Ragial is a popular website - Why not replicate it, have a live version from your database. Optional Premium benefit.
8) Theres lots of guilds going around. Why not host subdomains for them - acedia.playragnarok.com - and give them a set of templates, and schedulers for organizing events, chats, etc. Charge monthly KP.
9) Lowerping is ESSENTIAL for playing Ragnarok overseas - Host your own proxy and allow us to pay with Kafra Points.


Another Shameless plug: I've already started work on a lot of these suggestions. I'm also only employed 3 days a week right now. I would love full time work =)

Edited by Wiggles, 01 February 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[Heimdallr]

I love the idea of where all of you are coming from.

Adding an in-game hat that requires you to buy an item mall token, to do the quest. I'm all for that, but when I presented that idea in the past I had complaints of those that wanted their immediate items and not jumping through hoops to get it; or that we were denying in-game content unless you purchased from the Shop.. Really it is a no win situation when this happens, we get complaints either way, but in the long run giving item mall quests to get hats adds some fun to the game in my opinion.

Selling purely appearance based stuff would be great, and likely will be a possibility in the future with the costuming system. But currently we have only had success with gear that has both appearance and effect. Even a plain ole hat with good effects has sold very well. Players don't need to buy as many hats as they do consumables, so even cheap consumables end up being the items that keep the game running.

We have tried in the years to experiment with all sort of item combinations, and the most apparent thing for sales is that high value items with good effects that have to be purchased multiple times has been the successes.

I'm not willing to leave it at that, because it is a very slippery slope that leads to a vast disconnect between the in-game and the kafra shop stuff. Things that we will be doing is exclusive content, but that content is planned to be available to subscribers, or for those without, then a token for access. We are setting up the subscription to be a ridiculously great deal if you compare it to buying lots of small things from the kafra shop to equal its effects. Honestly a 1 month subscription would be equivalent of like 5 hours of game play in item mall items.

We are going to be requesting a number of new consumables that give more pop per point than the current bless/agi and food items do, because those are failing to be a good deal now a days. I think that HE items will stay as event items, but perhaps a low level assistance HE items that only work for newer accounts can be put in to help new characters to get faster into the thick of things with the veterans.

Equipment has not done well because of the cost and the rental factor in the kafra shop, I think I would prefer to make much cheaper powerful gear as more of a "buff" item that only lasts minutes/hours rather than a week. And see if those work out, maybe only offering them via quest/lucky box.

We have already requested any clothing dye options possible, as well as alternate RK sprites, and mounts for the classes. Those things may find a fond home with everyone, and that will be great. You have requested them, and we certainly don't mind giving things like that when we can.

[LethalJokeChar]

Yeah.. here's a tip for you. If you're going to want any luck selling appearance-based items, let them stack with the current gear the player is wearing. So, maybe that looks like you are wearing black cat ears, but you are actually wearing some ugly thing like, I dunno, a goibne helm. Your sales will skyrocket because everyone who wanted to look cool/cute will with specific items will not be held back because they would be restricted to failing to look cool as a dead body on the ground.

Also, the bad thing about the helper whistles to call back your mounts? Kinda negates shadow chaser's mount strip too easily. I mean what, do you want a special item to cure full divest in the middle of battle too? A special item to cure certain 3rd job debuffs like gloomy shyness, mandragora howling, gx poisons, and chill effect? Such an item really is no different. If you have a 30 second cooldown... that's still plenty of time in normal circumstances to not really be hindered at all. If you ever add such items, they shouldn't be usable in woe/pvp settings at all.


Lastly, look... the whole thing about the two-seat and one-seat boats is cheesy sales tactics. No one can REALLY be sure if you are throwing in a two-seat as a bonus. For all they know, you COULD have just raised both prices and sold them for the same. Essentially ripping off buyers no matter what, but moreso for the one-seater.

When you give little rewards to people, they have to be done for good reason. It doesn't matter if you are an employer and take, say, 70% of your employees and give them a raise for no real reason, claiming it's just a "reward". There are the other people who notice this who did NOT get this "reward". And soon enough, when this "reward" becomes the norm, it no longer seems like a reward at all, but a punishment to the other 30% who did not get it. I guess this is all just psychology, but still, rewards have to have just cause and they need to be applied sparingly. Otherwise they lose their charm and are expected as the norm.

[Wiggles]

I think Heim misunderstood with that boat analogy.

Here is how it should be.

You are renting 2 seater boats for $20.
Next month, you come back, and all you can get for $20 is a 1 seat boat.
The next month, you come back and you can get the 1 seat boat for $20 OR the 2 seat boat for $40.


So in the end we are paying more for what we originally got.

[Nombus]

There are so many items that are available that would cause an uproar the likes of which no one has seen.No one was doing KVM legitimately. If people were actually battling we would have left it alone. Point out 1 person that was doing it through battles and I can show 20 that were filling with alts..

Really? If you believe that you really don't know just how good +9 KvM items are. They are the best weapons in game... No doubt about it. As such, they have a place among God items because the majority of God items are not weapons and are modified all the better by these weapons. MvP cards? Most of their effects are nowhere near this good. Now that HDores are no longer available, if +9 KvM items could be sold youâ??d find their prices going at God Item rates.

You're right though, those things would get them more angry. The reason why is that few people had KvM weapons prior to KvM badges being sold and very few people worked hard to get them . They farmed them. The reason this occurred is because KvM is not fun! When I PvP I expect constant action, not two one minute battles followed by a five minute cooldown. You might think you've done something good for RO with a cooldown by making it hard to farm, but you've also destroyed any aspect of enjoyment that KvM could possess (donâ??t forget the bug that kicks out the other side causing it to reset the 5 minute timer without a fight).

Instead of fixing this, you sold them. But believe me, if anyone had made a +9 KvM weapon without HDore or badges they'd have gotten as angry as anyone has ever been over RO and quit because the effort required in game without Kafra shop items is more than that of making a God Item. Please, calculate how long it would take you to get 2000 KvM Points and then multiply that time by the chances of making this item with Elu.

What you will find is that this item was only ever available through the Kafra shop.

Edited by Nombus, 13 February 2011 - 07:09 PM.

[Sera]

Honestly, Heim, are you even reading what we're saying, because based on your responses, it doesn't seem like it.

We've explained the matter of appearance based items numerous times, what would work, and what would not work, yet you keep saying that no one wants appearance based items. To make it clear:
- No one wants appearance based items if there are competitive alternatives
- If there are not competitive alternatives, people will prefer appearance/cost based items (remember how Romantic Flower and Crunch Toast were cool back in the day?)
- If you implement gear with stats, eventually you'll hit a point where they become game-breaking. If you have one slot reserved for costume, you can sell cute gear for all sorts of events without regard to it being 'better' or 'worse' than past gear.

"People don't want purely appearance based gear" is not a valid response to these arguments when taken in whole.

You also seem to have missed my initial purpose in making this thread. Instead perceiving it as an attack upon the kafra shop and your business practices, which up to this point, my posts were never intended to be:

I'm not willing to leave it at that, because it is a very slippery slope that leads to a vast disconnect between the in-game and the kafra shop stuff. Things that we will be doing is exclusive content, but that content is planned to be available to subscribers, or for those without, then a token for access. We are setting up the subscription to be a ridiculously great deal if you compare it to buying lots of small things from the kafra shop to equal its effects. Honestly a 1 month subscription would be equivalent of like 5 hours of game play in item mall items.

THIS IS WHAT I WAS SAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE. It is a slippery slope, so please recognize that it is, and when implementing new items, please think them through so that hopefully they do not disrupt the balance.
That's all I ask, no hidden barbs, no malice, no nothing.

Edited by Sera, 03 February 2011 - 09:21 AM.

[Andini]

We are going to be requesting a number of new consumables that give more pop per point than the current bless/agi and food items do, because those are failing to be a good deal now a days

you best make sure you think about this before you do the typical gm ro thing, which is implement it, pause, say oh motherfook, then take it out later or change it after the harm is done

Edited by Andini, 03 February 2011 - 09:28 AM.

[Sera]

To be honest, I'm having a hard time trying to tell if genuinely want suggestions, or if you're being sarcastic. I assumed it was the former, but three posts later I'm not sure anymore.

[DrAzzy]

We have tried in the years to experiment with all sort of item combinations, and the most apparent thing for sales is that high value items with good effects that have to be purchased multiple times has been the successes.

We are going to be requesting a number of new consumables that give more pop per point than the current bless/agi and food items do, because those are failing to be a good deal now a days. I think that HE items will stay as event items, but perhaps a low level assistance HE items that only work for newer accounts can be put in to help new characters to get faster into the thick of things with the veterans.

Well - yes, of course. Stuff like the HD ores and the good Zodiacs and such. The problem with stuff like that though, is that it also annoys players - people feel like they _must_ get the item, or they can no longer compete.

Yeah - we could use a few consumables, since the +10 stat foods just don't have the same kick that they used to.
I'd be opposed to making +20 stat foods sold in kafra shop though - those actually _are_ worth making with genetics, but putting them into boxes isn't that bad - the prices seemed to stabilize at a point where cooking is still profitable. The B> shops with int/dex food ingredients certainly havn't gone away.

I'd favor some consumables that directly give increases in damage, and a +20% regen-from-recovery-items potion that worked for SP items would be nice. Have the Small/Medium life potion been selling better since renewal? I'd expect that they would - I certainly found that they made a night-and-day difference to me when leveling my RK.... Went from needing to card out potions 2x/hr and spending a fortune on them to being able to stay on the map for 2 hours without running out of anything.

I'd also LOVE to buy some "lightweight flywings". I've been asking for these for years...
Identical to a flywing in every way, only 1 weight instead of 5. Or 0 weight, even better. Flywings are ridiculously heavy, you need to spam them like never before in renewal, and no matter how much you care, there's no alternative other than using GWings (which is too expensive)
How about a box of 1000 light-weight flywings for 20-30 points or something? Or sell them from an npc for 500-1000z to deflate the economy... These 5-weight flywings are horrible. Where do they even find such heavy flies?!

[ZeroTigress]

Where do they even find such heavy flies?!

Chonchons are pretty fat little suckers.

[Andini]

Yeah - we could use a few consumables, since the +10 stat foods just don't have the same kick that they used to.
I'd be opposed to making +20 stat foods sold in kafra shop though - those actually _are_ worth making with genetics, but putting them into boxes isn't that bad - the prices seemed to stabilize at a point where cooking is still profitable. The B> shops with int/dex food ingredients certainly havn't gone away.

I'd favor some consumables that directly give increases in damage,

if +20 foods were put in kafra shop instead of +10, i doubt +20 foods that are made by genetics would go down in price ONLY IF the ones sold in kafra shop stacked like the +10 ones do currently with the +20s. if it replaced the +20s and gave a longer duration, then it would be pointless.

consumables that increase damage should only be able to be used with certain skills as im sure a bunch of skills do not need "more damage"

Edited by Andini, 03 February 2011 - 10:19 AM.

[Sera]

I'd also LOVE to buy some "lightweight flywings". I've been asking for these for years...
Identical to a flywing in every way, only 1 weight instead of 5. Or 0 weight, even better. Flywings are ridiculously heavy, you need to spam them like never before in renewal, and no matter how much you care, there's no alternative other than using GWings (which is too expensive)
How about a box of 1000 light-weight flywings for 20-30 points or something? Or sell them from an npc for 500-1000z to deflate the economy... These 5-weight flywings are horrible. Where do they even find such heavy flies?!

God yes, please put Condensed Flywings in the kafra shop. I've been asking for these since the old forums as well.

[ItsMoonie]

creamy card?

[Daray]

creamy card?

Doesn't exist on Valkyrie.

[Andini]

i bet it does

[Doddler]

This is an MMORPG, it is a character building game. You create a character, and as you watch it grow and become more powerful, you feel satisfaction in your creation. The final creation of yours can be brought against end game content such as MVP and War of Emperium. That growth is the basis of a RPG. If players want you to hand them high level characters with powerful gear for little or no effort, they should go play an action game or something. I will happily spend money to make the growth process more enjoyable, and to a certain extent to make it a little faster. But if you start taking away aspects of my character that I can grow on my own, that directly hurts my enjoyment of the game. When character growth can be replaced by spending money, it reduces the amount of satisfaction I get from creating a strong character.

I'm not sure there's much to bring up that hasn't been brought up. I'll happily pay for things that make the tedious things in the game less of an issue. Traveling is the biggest one. I'm pro-convex mirrors because looking for a boss isn't fun. I don't mind temporary character buffs like stat foods and such as long as they don't overshadow my own character's stats and progress. I wouldn't even mind exclusive zones for premium users (hint: ask korea for izlude dungeon 6f). But when you start using the shop to take away things that normally are part of the character building experience, you shave away peoples reasons to play. WoE whites/blues drastically affect what a player can do in game on next to no dime. The KVM gears and medals from boxes invalidates the work that normally would go into obtaining those items. The Upgrade fiasco completely killed the value of working towards powerful and high upgraded gear.

So give us gears, give us buffs, give us costumes, whatever. But really, consider that we play the game because it's fun. Give us stuff that makes things more fun, less tedious, but don't give us stuff that gives us less to do. The whole KVM and Ore issue came from a fact that you took an aspect of the game that was the highest possible achievement for a pvp player to get and handed it out for a few dollars. You can't invalidate these achievements, if there's nothing to achieve through their own work, they'll just leave.

[Wanderer]

^ QFT

[Sera]

I kind of feel like this latest lucky box thing was inspired by a misunderstanding of the "cosmetic vs. useful" argument in this thread.

Also, whoever your community advisers are, I advise that you stop listening to them asap. Princess Knives and Censor Bars are neither useful nor attractive.

Again:
- Cosmetically appealing items are desirable if there are no useful alternatives.
- Usefulness always outweighs cosmetic appearance in terms of selling-power.
- If all things are equally useful though, you can sell cosmetic items.

Edited by Sera, 03 February 2011 - 03:46 PM.

[Clogon]

Wow! I can't believe I missed this thread!!! OMG!!! I have so much to say. >.<

First the New Costume System (No wonder Doddler asked me for a screen shot the other day <.<):


As you guys can see, on your status window there will be 2 tabs. One for your normal equipments which have effect and etc. While the other is PURELY cosmetic! You guys don't need to worry much on this issue. kRO has yet to make any costume items besides the wings and backpacks. But I sure hope they allow all of our current visible equipment to be placed there while losing their effects. Either that or they sell costume versions of them so that we can look the way we want without affecting our builds.

However I am not sure if you should disable this feature in competitive maps like WoE, PVP and battle grounds or not. The reason being that seeing the headgears of the opponent has always been a good way for people to know what we are dealing with. It also helps us tell who is using a rare card headgear IE someone wearing sunnies on ymir. Though I am indifferent on this issue, there have been signs of debate on this.

@Oda:
About fighting in Santa costume. I don't think it is currently possible since kRO did not make any attacking or casting sprites for them. I am pretty sure this is the only reason why we can't do so.




Second Mado mechanic issues:

Yes I understand on death and when "self destructed", making a 5+ minute timer on using the whistle wouldnt change the class balance, it would just save them the trip back to town to get their robot. I would not be making it instant to avoid constant self destructing. I wouldn't find it surprising that a future update allows mechanics to remake their robot via a skill or some other cost. So the item mall shouldn't be a convenience to avoid a town trip?



A town trip each time you die to get it back is something we would be overturning anyway, so avoiding that for an item use doesn't seem that far out.

I wish you worked for kRO! <.< This is SO much better then what they did. The item on kRO has no delay and then kRO gave a 5 minute reuse delay on the Self Destruct SKILL. Which not only forces mado mechanics to by this item to be good, but also got them nerfed. Though I hope this nerf is only temporary since they only sell 1 item and you need it use the item again to dismount, I still completely agree with you putting a timer on it any ways since even if it requires you to dismount to do attack and use skills. Without a timer, it makes Shadow Chaser's Masquerade Gloomy skill useless and a MUST HAVE item for the Mado Mechanic which will use this item to spam Self Destruct. 5 minutes though is too long since players cannot do anything while mounted while no delay at all is unbalanced for Mado Mechanics and no casting time/item still usable while under the effect of Masquerade Gloomy makes this skill useless for Shadow Chasers. I hope you guys will have a good balance for this item. As Doddler pointed out, the fact that the mount rental item is giving the mount classes their proper mounts is only a temporary solution till kRO decides gives them special mounts too. But whether this happens or not, please do not break the game any further with careless implementation of this item like they did.

P.S.: Please get a different translator with better understanding of english. They misplaces "R"'s and "L"'s since the romanization the Korean character "ã?¹" can be either. Masquerade Groomy is supposed to be Masquerade Gloomy. Groomy is not a word, let alone an adjective or state of a person. Another example is the Warlock skill, Crimson Lock. How is a giant meteor not a Crimson Rock? I suspect this is why you did not know what Crimson Rock was.


Lastly on the Kafra shop issue:
I agree with most of the players opinions. I like having items that improve my experience of the game like Subscription only dungeons or premium test servers. Things that saves me time like Greed scrolls are a definite plus too!. I wish you'd make a rental item with this skill! I can easily go through 600 scrolls/hr (600 KP/hr) when I am desperate for loot. If Greed scrolls weren't so expensive they'd sell a lot more since if we used it every time we killed a mob of monsters it can go as fast as once every 3s seconds (1200 KP/hr at the current rate...). Your WoE boxes are quite popular because they are so cheap 5 KP for 50 white and 20 blue. Cheaper Greeds scrolls or a rental item that allows the use of Greed would sell tremendously since no one likes to pick up loot. A lot of players are avoiding this item for its current cost. Those that spend a lot on this item won't be spending any less while those that didn't spend any at all will at least buy some and probably get addicted! I don't think implementing auto loot is a good idea since there are plenty of cases where you and the MVP die at the same time allowing other competing players to get the loot. I really like the light flywings idea too! I don't want to have to sacrifice an accessory slot for the All - in - One ring which only lasts a week and I might not have the time to play during that week due to sudden real life events.


I hope this still gets read...

Edited by Clogon, 13 February 2011 - 02:27 AM.

[SamuelAdams]

However I am not sure if you should disable this feature in competitive maps like WoE, PVP and battle grounds or not. The reason being that seeing the headgears of the opponent has always been a good way for people to know what we are dealing with. It also helps us tell who is using a rare card headgear IE someone wearing sunnies on ymir. Though I am indifferent on this issue, there have been signs of debate on this.

Like the people saying more weapon sprites getting put in the game for various weapons would be unfair...

I hope it doesn't get disabled in these maps. I long for the time when every guild member enters a castle wearing the "Wanted" hats.
(^Seriously if anyone is gonna do this when it gets implemented let me know. )

And wow. Look at all the suras in that picture...

Final note, auto-loot sounds like a great premium feature.

Edited by SamuelAdams, 13 February 2011 - 02:41 AM.

[Clogon]

And wow. Look at all the suras in that picture...

Well Suras are one of if not the most popular and botted class on kRO the last time I went there. Walking from Alderbaran to Geffen netted me 50+ Acolyte, Monk, Champ and Sura bots...

[Scott]

I think Xellie and Azzy hit the nail on the head there.

As a general rule, Kafra shop items are okay if they positively affect the buyer, but do not negatively affect anyone else.

Gum, Manuals - these are fine.
Light Blues - Alchemists now screwed. Not fine.

That is the 1 key factor that is holding LOTRO's F2P together. Every single cash shop item is a character benefit, and does not affect the market, other players, etc.

Some suggestions;
1) You know RCX is popular. Why not replicate it, and sell it as a premium service.
2) RODE and WikiDB are dying - You have the database, why not make your own and charge for it.
3) Stat Calcs are in decline, noone has an updated one - Employ someone to make one, charge for it. (Shameless Plug: I'm currently writing one in C#)
4) Everyone is demanding a test server - Make one and charge a premium fee to enter.
5) Some non-official servers have auto-loot - Why not make it a premium service?
6) The ingame auction house is terrible. The forums are terrible. Why not either FIX IT and charge KP to list, or make a web-based one and have it as an optional premium service.
7) Ragial is a popular website - Why not replicate it, have a live version from your database. Optional Premium benefit.
8) Theres lots of guilds going around. Why not host subdomains for them - acedia.playragnarok.com - and give them a set of templates, and schedulers for organizing events, chats, etc. Charge monthly KP.
9) Lowerping is ESSENTIAL for playing Ragnarok overseas - Host your own proxy and allow us to pay with Kafra Points.


Another Shameless plug: I've already started work on a lot of these suggestions. I'm also only employed 3 days a week right now. I would love full time work =)

Half or more of those things we're already able to do for free. I don't think charging for them will be successful when the free methods still exist.

Visible and unique weapons wouldn't be unfair, since everyone would be in the same boat. If someone had the capacity to deal with it, they would, and if not, it's hardly as though they can just walk on back to storage, get the stuff to deal with it and continue on. Even with Kafra Cards.

Edited by Scott, 13 February 2011 - 04:41 AM.

[Wiggles]

Half or more of those things we're already able to do for free. I don't think charging for them will be successful when the free methods still exist.

Eliminate them.

Its common practice.

Youtube -> Google
Hamachi -> LogMeIn
FileShare -> Office Live

All previously free.. bought out by big companies, who charge for it. (The Youtube -> Google was a bad example, but they make a profit with the Advertisements)

[Puppet]

I just want to see what there gona take away from the people already on the premium servers when they go F2pP, IMO they should take nothing away and make the people that pay for premium get even more benifts, Like no drop penalty no death penalty, more EXP higher drop rates Higher Base Upgrade Rates etc

[Sadmoto]

No one was doing KVM legitimately. If people were actually battling we would have left it alone. Point out 1 person that was doing it through battles and I can show 20 that were filling with alts..

So instead of giving more incentive to KVM you just make it so you can buy the rewards in the kafra shop which makes kvm redundant and make one more useless mechanic in-game.


just grasping on any last $$ you guys can get out of this dieing game.