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Balancing Champs


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#26 Cordie

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:04 PM

I like the idea of going back o weapon req for Champ tree. No weapon req for Soldier tree, just Champ tree.

Reasoning, as a soldier you haven't chosen your "speciality" yet but as a champ you choose a weapon on wich to become extra good at.

And I also ask the question to why they seem to be more "magical" then mages and faster then raiders/scouts.

NERF THEM <_<

(but not yet since I'm lvling one atm..)
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#27 Neptizzle

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 10:05 AM

The idea of just remove quick step (25% mspd), remove the def mastery (20% def) and remove the last two hp passives won't make it that much better. Ofcourse, all those things make champs easier to kill, but when you challenge one for example in uw, with the 3 stuns a champ still has a huge benefit.

I do have the quick step skill now, but I don't have the spear passive. My moving speed is 20% lower (only 5% difference with the suggestion), but I still kick some butt in UW. I really don't need that extra moving speed. Yea, sporadic I'm too slow to run away and die. But that's the result of walking in to a group of 10 enemies, which I shouldn't (well except if your name is Leroy Jenkiks, but that's off-topic).

10% HP and 20% def less will hurt champs, but hey, when I'm near someone with my champ I'll just use the skill rotation that I've always been using and kill him or her with my 3 stuns.

The diversity of champs seems to be a big issue. Well, I think that with the change that I suggested earlier in this thread champs still have a lot of opportunities. Not only in the choice of equipment, but also in the way that they use skills. You'll need to think about what you do, which is totally different from now. Everyone can play a champ now.

The different weapon types will have different purposes. Spear will be great for farming, but also for union war. They will use the aoe's like they should and have a higher attack speed and moving speed than sword and axe champs. Sword champs on the other hand are balanced and can be used for almost everything. They will hit raiders and scouts much easier than the spear and axe champs. Axe champs will probably be the best for pvp, but not much more than that.

Removing the weapon requirement for other classes is a bad idea in my opinion. What's the point of having different types of classes or subclasses (i.e. dual or katar) when you can use skills from both sides anyway?
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#28 pogiako

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 07:48 PM

We all know Champs are...strong, let's say so, lol.

One first very important thing that should be done, I think, is setting weapon requirement back on skills, and go back to the 3 different possible paths: sword, spear or axe, BUT only for the 2nd Job skill tree, while "Soldier" skills should stay open to all weapons, in order to grant 2 decent stuns regardless of which path you choose after taking 2nd Job.

Second: their mov.speed should be decreased. I mean, how can they run so fast while wearing a golden (aurum) or any other "heavy" armor? Gold is freaking heavy!

Third: less def, they almost tank as much as knights. I mean, not like 5k def less, but a little bit less wouldn't be that bad.

After this, every "path" will have his strenths and his weaknesses.

haha less than 5k def??? are you out of ur mind? ? -_-
you cant blame champ if they run fast and still hit hard . raiders and clerics also can do the same . .
champ is strong when the user of it now how to balance every aspect of there job . .

Edited by pogiako, 09 February 2011 - 07:53 PM.

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#29 Gojio

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:03 AM

haha less than 5k def??? are you out of ur mind? ? -_-
you cant blame champ if they run fast and still hit hard . raiders and clerics also can do the same . .
champ is strong when the user of it now how to balance every aspect of there job . .


Learn english before posting.
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#30 jagz

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:56 AM

They do not need to be destroyed, but simply slowed down.. and maybe lose the HP passive.

I think Champ's should have great defense and attack power, but obviously being the fastest players on the field to go along with what they have, is a little much.

/deadhorse
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#31 ChickenBucket

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 08:24 AM

Learn english before posting.


all i understood there is plz dont nerf the champs because im a peenoy that doesnt know to use another class but champ
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#32 Soda

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:32 AM

haha less than 5k def??? are you out of ur mind? ? -_-
you cant blame champ if they run fast and still hit hard . raiders and clerics also can do the same . .
champ is strong when the user of it now how to balance every aspect of there job . .

He said "not like 5k def less, but a little bit less wouldn't be that bad."..
learn how to read ...
OHHHH NOOOOOEESSS I LOSE ME PRECIOUS DEF ME NO TANK LIKE KNIGHTS NO MORE..
Get real, Im sure 100% of the ppl that only play champs (LITERALLY ONLY CHAMP) will complain about champs getting nerf..
Someone even said he is thinking of playing raider if what twitch proposed about that target thing while cloaked will be implemented .. (SPAN)
Seriously.. People need to learn how to enjoy the game by playing other classes as well and not just picking a single class that is above every class. (I admit its the GM's fault for making champs so OP and not listening to our suggestions) "Reading" our suggestions alone ISNT GONNA HELP , WE NEED REAL ACTION.


I think Champ's should have great defense and attack power, but obviously being the fastest players on the field to go along with what they have, is a little much.


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#33 Gojio

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:21 PM

After gearing and playing my champ, I must say they aren't as overpowered as people make them sound.

AP and defense are fine I think, even tho I can get almost 10k defense in combat set, I get dropped "easily" by people who have good gear (of course noobs can't kill me, that doesn't make me OP).

Mov.speed is really, really, but I mean REALLY too much.

HP passives are not that bad actually. I took one only because I didn't have enough SPs for both and the HP I have in fighting gear is almost 24k (with 25% max HP potion), which is about right for a champ, they're still a STR based class, and they are soldiers.

If you see people having 30k, it's either someone with full reinforced (which makes em a lot slower in aspd and mspd) or someone using Item Mall HP boosters.

So, I must reconsider my first post. They just need Mspd nerfed.

Edited by Gojio, 10 February 2011 - 05:24 PM.

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#34 EmoCutt

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 06:53 PM

they do like 7k dmg on my char o.o
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#35 Gojio

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:01 PM

they do like 7k dmg on my char o.o


Your char must be super weak.

I hit 2-3k only on clerics with low def, about the rest every hit is 1000ish more or less.

On raiders some skills do less than 1k, and same on good geared bourgs.

It really depends a lot on your gear.
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#36 EmoCutt

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:05 PM

Your char must be super weak.

I hit 2-3k only on clerics with low def, about the rest every hit is 1000ish more or less.

On raiders some skills do less than 1k, and same on good geared bourgs.

It really depends a lot on your gear.

could be that im only 167 :Emo_18:
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#37 Blitzkrieg

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:13 PM

CHAMPS ARE OP....this fact cant be denied but the extent to which people take it does go overboard
(like people saying they have 4AOE,4stun,4hp passive,2 def passive ...... damn you know you have only 210 SPs dont you?)

champ movespeed needs to nerfed HEAVILY

the biggest problem with champs is that they dont have any vulnerability...ie..there exists no bulid to counter champs

eg.. raiders and scouts countered by bourgs or high accuracy
mages - fast physical damage dealers (not as in dealer class) as they dont last long and MUTE
bourgs -although they are pretty balanced they are not exceptionally good at any any thing too...they can be out classed if you know how to play better
clerics - STUN /MUTE or anything.....they can only prolong their life but they die in the end
knights - good tankers but low AP....really low as comapred to champs and dont have much to flaunt other than HP/def or for CB knights range

CHAMPS - HIGH AP
HIGHEST Move Speed
possibly HIGHEST aspd
HIGH HP (i dunno if its highest or not)
HIGH DEF
MUTE
BEST STUNS (for axe)
BEST AOE
SHOW BEST RESULTS WITH MENTALLY RETARDED PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO TRADED BRAINS WITH OSTRICHES
BEST DEBUFFS
EXCEPTIONAL COMPATIBILITY WITH CHIVA GEAR
NO CHOKING HAZARD FOR PLAYERS BELOW 3YRS OLD
UNENDING MANA SUPPLY

YEAH I KNOW ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET ALL OF THEM BUT YOU CAN STILL GET UPTO 60% OF THEM
eg... spear 2h champs - have to compromise only on STUNS and choose between MUTE and DEF passive and leave MANA for ASPD or viceversa
but it is still possible to get most of them
champs are the simplest class to play as all you have to do is spam

also if the champ total damage output is checked they can deal more damage than mages due to the fact that they have smaller animations
unlike other classes they deal most damage in an AOE which makes their total damage to multiply according to the units surrounding them

in my opinion champs should be made to have VERY VERY LOW MSPD so they can still deal a lot of damage but it would be difficult for them to reach their opponents
like if spear passive was completely changes to aspd and quick step was removed and beserk would reduce their ms while increasing their AP
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#38 Gojio

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:21 AM

CHAMPS ARE OP....this fact cant be denied but the extent to which people take it does go overboard
(like people saying they have 4AOE,4stun,4hp passive,2 def passive ...... damn you know you have only 210 SPs dont you?)

champ movespeed needs to nerfed HEAVILY

the biggest problem with champs is that they dont have any vulnerability...ie..there exists no bulid to counter champs

eg.. raiders and scouts countered by bourgs or high accuracy
mages - fast physical damage dealers (not as in dealer class) as they dont last long and MUTE
bourgs -although they are pretty balanced they are not exceptionally good at any any thing too...they can be out classed if you know how to play better
clerics - STUN /MUTE or anything.....they can only prolong their life but they die in the end
knights - good tankers but low AP....really low as comapred to champs and dont have much to flaunt other than HP/def or for CB knights range

CHAMPS - HIGH AP
HIGHEST Move Speed
possibly HIGHEST aspd
HIGH HP (i dunno if its highest or not)
HIGH DEF
MUTE
BEST STUNS (for axe)
BEST AOE
SHOW BEST RESULTS WITH MENTALLY RETARDED PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO TRADED BRAINS WITH OSTRICHES
BEST DEBUFFS
EXCEPTIONAL COMPATIBILITY WITH CHIVA GEAR
NO CHOKING HAZARD FOR PLAYERS BELOW 3YRS OLD
UNENDING MANA SUPPLY

YEAH I KNOW ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET ALL OF THEM BUT YOU CAN STILL GET UPTO 60% OF THEM
eg... spear 2h champs - have to compromise only on STUNS and choose between MUTE and DEF passive and leave MANA for ASPD or viceversa
but it is still possible to get most of them
champs are the simplest class to play as all you have to do is spam

also if the champ total damage output is checked they can deal more damage than mages due to the fact that they have smaller animations
unlike other classes they deal most damage in an AOE which makes their total damage to multiply according to the units surrounding them

in my opinion champs should be made to have VERY VERY LOW MSPD so they can still deal a lot of damage but it would be difficult for them to reach their opponents
like if spear passive was completely changes to aspd and quick step was removed and beserk would reduce their ms while increasing their AP


Good raiders can beat champs, mages can beat champs easily because magic skills hit very hard on them, good knights can tank good champs pretty well, clerics can heal but they naturally can't live forever if a champ is hitting them, this is just fair.

Champs don't have highest def, knights do.
Champs totally don't have highest aspd lol, again, that depends on what gear you use. Use a full chiva set + lava d7 and enjoy ur super slow attacks, use typhoon and dark\precious gear and enjoy ur lower ap and faster attack, that is good as it is.
Mute is 4 seconds...
Oh and, what do you mean with exceptional compatibility with chivalrous gear? I didn't get that.

Conclusion, now you're the one over exaggerating about them. I am not defending them, I'm speaking the truth, based on personal experience with my own champ.

I say reduce their movement speed, and they'll become easier to kill, because in wars, running away from raiders and ranged classes would become a lot harder.
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#39 Phish

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:03 AM

You should have seen the war between Interex and Pwnstar last night. There was one knight one cleric and one raider and literally 10 champs just brawling.
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#40 iBryan

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:17 PM

We all know Champs are...strong, let's say so, lol.

One first very important thing that should be done, I think, is setting weapon requirement back on skills, and go back to the 3 different possible paths: sword, spear or axe, BUT only for the 2nd Job skill tree, while "Soldier" skills should stay open to all weapons, in order to grant 2 decent stuns regardless of which path you choose after taking 2nd Job.

Second: their mov.speed should be decreased. I mean, how can they run so fast while wearing a golden (aurum) or any other "heavy" armor? Gold is freaking heavy!

Third: less def, they almost tank as much as knights. I mean, not like 5k def less, but a little bit less wouldn't be that bad.

After this, every "path" will have his strenths and his weaknesses.

EDIT:
After gearing my champ and playing it for some days, I made considerations about it, which you can find in my post in the 2nd page.



To be honest, the only problems i see in champs is the movement speed, because they can't tank like knights as you say. The only way they could tank like knights is by wearing all chiv with orlo. I mean who can't tank with those things on as a champ with pots. And i don't believe opening more options to other classes is a good thing, maybe im getting the wrong image but if that was to happen then katar raider will have EVA(Evasive Guard) again, a dual sword skill. The aoes are fine, maybe the 1more stun should be removed or lower %s. The HP passives don't even matter because you get HP bugged either way when buffing with HP stuff.
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#41 Gojio

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:01 PM

To be honest, the only problems i see in champs is the movement speed, because they can't tank like knights as you say. The only way they could tank like knights is by wearing all chiv with orlo. I mean who can't tank with those things on as a champ with pots. And i don't believe opening more options to other classes is a good thing, maybe im getting the wrong image but if that was to happen then katar raider will have EVA(Evasive Guard) again, a dual sword skill. The aoes are fine, maybe the 1more stun should be removed or lower %s. The HP passives don't even matter because you get HP bugged either way when buffing with HP stuff.


:Emo_18: You didn't read my reconsiderations! KOS
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#42 iBryan

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:19 PM

:Emo_18: You didn't read my reconsiderations! KOS



i did but i was also referring to adam's suggestion.
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#43 Gojio

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:26 PM

i did but i was also referring to adam's suggestion.


WKWKWKWK
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#44 Kaizy

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:30 PM

Champs attract peenoys, they should be nerfed to the ground.
/jokepost

Edited by Kaizy, 11 February 2011 - 07:30 PM.

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#45 Blitzkrieg

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:25 PM

Good raiders can beat champs, mages can beat champs easily because magic skills hit very hard on them, good knights can tank good champs pretty well, clerics can heal but they naturally can't live forever if a champ is hitting them, this is just fair.


well physical attacks hit mages just as hard and 4 secs of mute can get a mage to find a huge chunk of his hp missing.....potting is a completely different scene in which the whole scenario changes


Champs don't have highest def, knights do.
Champs totally don't have highest aspd lol, again, that depends on what gear you use. Use a full chiva set + lava d7 and enjoy ur super slow attacks, use typhoon and dark\precious gear and enjoy ur lower ap and faster attack, that is good as it is.
Mute is 4 seconds...
Oh and, what do you mean with exceptional compatibility with chivalrous gear? I didn't get that.

well defense and AP are champs main stats and they can have both in combat with having AP along with def using chiva gear (although i do prefer reinforced 10/40 over chiva in non gemmed items)
(not a very important matter so dont spend time thinking on it)

Conclusion, now you're the one over exaggerating about them. I am not defending them, I'm speaking the truth, based on personal experience with my own champ.
(maybe i did exaggerate a little)

I say reduce their movement speed, and they'll become easier to kill, because in wars, running away from raiders and ranged classes would become a lot harder.


CHAMPS ARE OP....this fact cant be denied but the extent to which people take it does go overboard



CHAMPS -
possibly HIGHEST aspd

katars -65% , +2 aspd


spear - 60% , +1 aspd
(i thought spears were +2 aspd but it wasnt a bad bet considering i said POSSIBLY)

(considering phish's aspd chart melee aspd is much higher than ranged so they arent taken into consideration)

SHOW BEST RESULTS WITH MENTALLY RETARDED PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO TRADED BRAINS WITH OSTRICHES


EXCEPTIONAL COMPATIBILITY WITH CHIVA GEAR


YEAH I KNOW ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET ALL OF THEM BUT YOU CAN STILL GET UPTO 60% OF THEM
eg... spear 2h champs - have to compromise only on STUNS and choose between MUTE and DEF passive and leave MANA for ASPD or viceversa
but it is still possible to get most of them
champs are the simplest class to play as all you have to do is spam


in my opinion champs should be made to have VERY LOW MSPD so they can still deal a lot of damage but it would be difficult for them to reach their opponents
like if spear passive was completely changes to aspd and quick step was removed


check it out.... i suggested the same thing......champs should have lower move speed thats it....i m happy with that and i dont demand any thing more
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