306 replies to this topic

[igozuvi]

Lol well you aren't really contributing to profit for the company by buying IM things with gold...
In fact you may be doing the company a disservice - Gravity is the one who has to incur the cost of bad credit cards, fines, fees, refunds, etc.

Oh and by the way - if you took some of the time you were spending to gather all of that gold to buy IM stuff and used it to be making real money this would be a non issue anyways.

idk why you quoted me with that response. I'm supporting the decision to make IM stuff account bound.

[Nolanvoid]

Most of the ideas about the level requirement, whether to Item Mall or Market seems to hurt the potential for new users to become a part of the community in some way. It must take into account the different aspects of the game, such as how it affects leveling, aesthetic feel, making money, and so on. It would be best to make sure to take these into account by making sure you cover all the viewpoints of the newer users as well as the current users.

[ThePinkReaper]

Most of the ideas about the level requirement, whether to Item Mall or Market seems to hurt the potential for new users to become a part of the community in some way. It must take into account the different aspects of the game, such as how it affects leveling, aesthetic feel, making money, and so on. It would be best to make sure to take these into account by making sure you cover all the viewpoints of the newer users as well as the current users.

Ok what about the idea to make Consumables tradable but not sellable? Why ignore that idea completely?

[Nolanvoid]

Ok what about the idea to make Consumables tradable but not sellable? Why ignore that idea completely?

It's not being ignored. It's on the list of debate that will be sent up. The suggestions that are heading in the wrong direction need to be given a slight bump in the right direction.

[HaHexfire]

Ok what about the idea to make Consumables tradable but not sellable? Why ignore that idea completely?

Hey thats a good idea.

It won't completely STOP the problem, but it will hinder it enough to where it becomes a containable issue.

[Endbringer]

It's not being ignored. It's on the list of debate that will be sent up. The suggestions that are heading in the wrong direction need to be given a slight bump in the right direction.

Just curious, Are you guys at WP familiar with IAH's method of being able to sell normal in game items for item mall cash?

[yartrebo]

Just curious, Are you guys at WP familiar with IAH's method of being able to sell normal in game items for item mall cash?

Such a method would be almost as easy for the gold sellers as having the cash goods tradeable. It would go: Buy IM with stolen credit card, buy commodities in market with IM, sell commodities for gold, sell gold for laundered $$$. Same number of steps as under the current system, and only a tiny bit harder.

Edited by yartrebo, 09 February 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Yurai]

Such a method would be almost as easy for the gold sellers as having the cash goods tradeable. It would go: Buy IM with stolen credit card, buy commodities in market with IM, sell commodities for gold, sell gold for laundered $$. Same number of steps as under the current system, and only a tiny bit harder.

Here's the difference:

IM items have unlimited stock, the only limitation being the amount being purchased. However, in game items have a limited stock which is limited to what's already available, and not what is made available from purchases. In addition, I don't really see many players using gold as a preferred currency on IAH, so it would make little sense to try and sell stuff for gold if no one really has gold/only wants cash. I guess the other problem would be that they end up just selling in game cash, which effectively removes a couple of steps that they have to take. However, the other factor that you have to take into consideration here is that if players are going to buy in game cash from an alternate seller instead of directly from Gravity, there are risks and inconveniences. How it plays out would depend on the mindset and attitudes of the community.

[Severfang]

If the system went to bot check in towns, Port of Winds "AFK EXP" would be pointless. Users would get kicked out. PoW is currently where they go to spam as well.

thats actually wrong. once the resting exp starts you can log out and still gain it. afk check that logs out would be perfect, complaints would be pointless if it kept the game alive

Edited by Severfang, 09 February 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[Nolanvoid]

thats actually wrong. once the resting exp starts you can log out and still gain it. afk check that logs out would be perfect, complaints would be pointless if it kept the game alive

I had corrected myself with a post by chaos, but I had deleted his post on accident(not a forum admin) while trying to multiquote his post. To confirm again, what you are stating is correct. We would still want people in-game.

[blossom25]

PLease tell me this does not include feathers right beacause people buy feathers off the item mall. Feathers are consumable so does that mean people will not be able to buy,trade or sell feathers?

[chaosdragoon1]

I had corrected myself with a post by chaos, but I had deleted his post on accident(not a forum admin) while trying to multiquote his post. To confirm again, what you are stating is correct. We would still want people in-game.

=(

I was wondering where it went.

[Bhreemon]

PLease tell me this does not include feathers right beacause people buy feathers off the item mall. Feathers are consumable so does that mean people will not be able to buy,trade or sell feathers?

according to hastur's first few posts...ALL ITEMS under the Consumables tab, including feathers, insurance scrolls, and randomizers, will be account bound after tomorrow's patch. this is why we've been trying to throw out other solutions against binding the items!

Edited by Bhreemon, 09 February 2011 - 08:53 PM.

[Chrysanthemum]

Most of the ideas about the level requirement, whether to Item Mall or Market seems to hurt the potential for new users to become a part of the community in some way. It must take into account the different aspects of the game, such as how it affects leveling, aesthetic feel, making money, and so on. It would be best to make sure to take these into account by making sure you cover all the viewpoints of the newer users as well as the current users.

Making a level requirement would just overcomplicate things. If you made insurance scrolls and other various IM items that affect the quality of your equipment available from an NPC it would alleviate a lot of the drama, confusion, and chaos this is creating - it's also going to be something readily available to new players provided they're around the same price they are now (insurance scrolls, anyhow). Heck when you impliment the stones again you could leave those as an IM item, but really - insurance scrolls? It's just too unfair.

This game is rated 10+ - are you really so surprised issues have arisen with credit card theft/fraud? I'm willing to bet there's one or two kids out there who've stolen their parents credit cards to buy things from the IM for this game, whether on this server or elsewhere, and have refused to admit to it. Gold scammers are around in every game that has an item mall, hell I've even seen a few fail attempts at people trying to trade real cash for ingame gold on GW and WoW (WoW I hear is far worse). What is this really about? Is it about preventing the illegal trade of IG IM points and gold or is it about increasing the companys revenue?

[Nolanvoid]

There will always be a look from any business to be increasing their revenue. That at the least should be a given because you have to sustain your business at the minimum and then look to grow from there. The issue as to why this has happened now is due to the fact of the sheer number of chargebacks that were occurring. Typically, the amount from some kid that stole their parent's credit card is very low and can be handled. That only lasts for a small finite amount of time as to where the gold sellers' credit card fraud happen on a much larger scale. I would like to go further into it, but I cannot release too much information on it. Basically, to sum it up...

Chargebacks = Very Very Bad

[squirly]

I'm still a newbie player that only needs feathers from IM but

How are the other Dragon Saga's IM different? (I assume they are the same as before this update)
This seems like the same as most free2p MMORPG IMs.

If the problem is chinese scammers then nothing you do will really stop them but slow them so they don't burn down the game publisher
General cycle of chinese scammers is
Buy WPE using mass produced credit cards or stolen credit cards
Sell in game product + Sell in game currency
Chargeback WPE or stolen credit card discovered by CC company
Credit Card company issues fraud and issues a penalty to the game publisher = no revenue or losses for game publisher

THere is actually a pretty simple fix for this.... I can't believe no one else has mentioned it. When it comes to buying WPE with a CC, make it require CONFIRMED paypal. Confirmed paypal is different than regular paypal because it REQUIRES you to give like bank account information thus preventing a scam from happening! On ebay as a seller they give you the option to only sell to people with VERIFIED confirmed paypal if you choose so. That is what I do everytime I sell something on ebay! Never been scammed or charged back in the 7 years of selling things on ebay.

Edited by squirly, 10 February 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[IreKire]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means our sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot completely stop gold selling websites with this move but it indeed is a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammers, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to the community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

mmm its been a bit since i bought some points,
but if i recall correctly there was a hold for a time to verify the card.
not to eliminate the work you are currently faced with, but what about extending
the time to verify cards. thus hopefully weading out more of the "Stolen" cards.
just an idea, as i'd hate to see the game end from illegals.
and as hastur stated, the best way we can help to route around this is to stay away
from those that offer such services...

Edited by IreKire, 11 February 2011 - 01:36 AM.

[Teochiu]

THere is actually a pretty simple fix for this.... I can't believe no one else has mentioned it. When it comes to buying WPE with a CC, make it require CONFIRMED paypal. Confirmed paypal is different than regular paypal because it REQUIRES you to give like bank account information thus preventing a scam from happening! On ebay as a seller they give you the option to only sell to people with VERIFIED confirmed paypal if you choose so. That is what I do everytime I sell something on ebay! Never been scammed or charged back in the 7 years of selling things on ebay.

I mentioned this way back. There just are too many topics.

[kuroro3]

thanks for this update because, i did spent a lot of money on thq by selling the consumable item. right now there is no point on spending a money on this game because u cannot sell it anyways so i can save a lot on money. I just came back on this game for the 4th job and start all over again but no point to spend a money anymore because i cannot sell it anyways.

[AccelSynchro]

just fo yo outside info, IAH is dying as i see top players and even nubbish players selling their accounts. GG np

[ATG4u]

Most of the ideas about the level requirement, whether to Item Mall or Market seems to hurt the potential for new users to become a part of the community in some way. It must take into account the different aspects of the game, such as how it affects leveling, aesthetic feel, making money, and so on. It would be best to make sure to take these into account by making sure you cover all the viewpoints of the newer users as well as the current users.

It's not being ignored. It's on the list of debate that will be sent up. The suggestions that are heading in the wrong direction need to be given a slight bump in the right direction.

There will always be a look from any business to be increasing their revenue. That at the least should be a given because you have to sustain your business at the minimum and then look to grow from there. The issue as to why this has happened now is due to the fact of the sheer number of chargebacks that were occurring. Typically, the amount from some kid that stole their parent's credit card is very low and can be handled. That only lasts for a small finite amount of time as to where the gold sellers' credit card fraud happen on a much larger scale. I would like to go further into it, but I cannot release too much information on it. Basically, to sum it up...

Chargebacks = Very Very Bad

Hmm. so it looks like I came to this discussion a bit late. Sorry. I happen to study Economics. Reducing the fungible nature of your currency (in this case, in-game gold) by reducing its purchasing power is what sparks riots in countries like Cuba and Egypt. Removing a commodity would be like when the US could no longer trade oil with OPEC. Remember when that happened during the 80's? How'd that turn out?

A level 30 cap on the auction house would not hurt the economy as much as you think; look at the % of items being traded that are exclusive to or more helpful to < level 30 players versus the number of trades of consumable cash shop items (adjusted for fraudulent trades, obviously) and you will see legitimate market activity for consumables outperforms level 1-29 gear and items (apples, waters, bananas, milk) at least 10 to 1. Probably closer to 100 to 1. For a new player before level 30 on a F2P MMO, what makes you or your business partners think consumers are going to contribute to what is ostensibly an untested product? Also, being forced to level up to a point where one can finally use the auction gives a sense of accomplishment, e.g. you are finally no longer a 'noob' in Dragon Saga.

Just by virtue of letting the community at large know the level of the person they are trading with would help immensely; most of the characters with gold (like Yurai) are shrewd, but veteran players like them also understand the importance of preserving this community. e.g., if I have to choose between orange juice made locally or orange juice from China, people buy local way more often. If I know "fakename312" is level 1 and is selling 15 stacks of scrolls will make me report that person. BUT THEN YOU NEED TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT TICKET IN LESS THAN 48 HOURS. Your ticket response times are abysmal; Hire a guy ... crap, hire some interns.

Speaking of developers and moderators doing their job without forcing a community to stagnate, a 72 hour hold on first purchases with a credit card is MORE than fair, and gives ample time to investigate the credit card. Sorry, you guys at Gravity are going to have to do something other than changing end-user conditions to fix this gold seller problem. Or, if you don't want to put those kinds of limits on your credit card purchases, a reduced volume of IM points purchasable in the first 2 weeks with a newly registered credit card is also more than feasible. You will irritate a whole lot fewer people. This plan only inconveniences each new player for about 2 weeks; remember that your current plan to remove consumables from trade upsets 1) veterans who play the game for fun, bring a sense of community to the game, and encourage others to play the game through viral marketing and person-to-person advertising who use in-game gold to continue playing; 2) early-mid level players who purchase IM points for items with real credit cards and sell those items in the game for in-game gold, and 3) new players, who try the game, but cannot get past the 'pay to win' mentality an account-bonded cash-shop system holds. My guess is with a modest 15% increase in cash shop prices, you could offset the additional cost of security for investigating new credit-card purchases and tickets pertaining to inappropriate selling practices. In my assessment, combining additional security protocols with an auction level cap and/or rallying community support to buy from higher level players, gold selling would be significantly reduced.

Plus, if you force a gold seller to play to level 30, they would realize how useless gold already is in the current market. Their strategy of ripping you guys off would seem futile, and they'd go back to gold-selling for World of Warcraft; Blizzard doesn't seem to mind.

Edited by ATG4u, 11 February 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[Hawly]

I was like "Meh, I think I'll play DS again. I can get some golds and buy some Insurances and get good equips."
Then I saw this thread. Then I QQ'd. Back to League of Legends.

[iceranger]

just fo yo outside info, IAH is dying as i see top players and even nubbish players selling their accounts. GG np

If you give the dragonica PH forums a quick search you'll sell this phenomenon is more common than white on rice.
Heard the GM's could be doing something about over there.

[chuongli]

This is terrible

[Maronu]

Hmm. so it looks like I came to this discussion a bit late. Sorry. I happen to study Economics. Reducing the fungible nature of your currency (in this case, in-game gold) by reducing its purchasing power is what sparks riots in countries like Cuba and Egypt. Removing a commodity would be like when the US could no longer trade oil with OPEC. Remember when that happened during the 80's? How'd that turn out?

A level 30 cap on the auction house would not hurt the economy as much as you think; look at the % of items being traded that are exclusive to or more helpful to < level 30 players versus the number of trades of consumable cash shop items (adjusted for fraudulent trades, obviously) and you will see legitimate market activity for consumables outperforms level 1-29 gear and items (apples, waters, bananas, milk) at least 10 to 1. Probably closer to 100 to 1. For a new player before level 30 on a F2P MMO, what makes you or your business partners think consumers are going to contribute to what is ostensibly an untested product? Also, being forced to level up to a point where one can finally use the auction gives a sense of accomplishment, e.g. you are finally no longer a 'noob' in Dragon Saga.

Just by virtue of letting the community at large know the level of the person they are trading with would help immensely; most of the characters with gold (like Yurai) are shrewd, but veteran players like them also understand the importance of preserving this community. e.g., if I have to choose between orange juice made locally or orange juice from China, people buy local way more often. If I know "fakename312" is level 1 and is selling 15 stacks of scrolls will make me report that person. BUT THEN YOU NEED TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT TICKET IN LESS THAN 48 HOURS. Your ticket response times are abysmal; Hire a guy ... crap, hire some interns.

Speaking of developers and moderators doing their job without forcing a community to stagnate, a 72 hour hold on first purchases with a credit card is MORE than fair, and gives ample time to investigate the credit card. Sorry, you guys at Gravity are going to have to do something other than changing end-user conditions to fix this gold seller problem. Or, if you don't want to put those kinds of limits on your credit card purchases, a reduced volume of IM points purchasable in the first 2 weeks with a newly registered credit card is also more than feasible. You will irritate a whole lot fewer people. This plan only inconveniences each new player for about 2 weeks; remember that your current plan to remove consumables from trade upsets 1) veterans who play the game for fun, bring a sense of community to the game, and encourage others to play the game through viral marketing and person-to-person advertising who use in-game gold to continue playing; 2) early-mid level players who purchase IM points for items with real credit cards and sell those items in the game for in-game gold, and 3) new players, who try the game, but cannot get past the 'pay to win' mentality an account-bonded cash-shop system holds. My guess is with a modest 15% increase in cash shop prices, you could offset the additional cost of security for investigating new credit-card purchases and tickets pertaining to inappropriate selling practices. In my assessment, combining additional security protocols with an auction level cap and/or rallying community support to buy from higher level players, gold selling would be significantly reduced.

Plus, if you force a gold seller to play to level 30, they would realize how useless gold already is in the current market. Their strategy of ripping you guys off would seem futile, and they'd go back to gold-selling for World of Warcraft; Blizzard doesn't seem to mind.

This guy is pro. Seriously, WP listen to him. What you have changed so far has fixed nothing from my player's perspective.