184 replies to this topic

[Ultimate]

We'll look into the feedback of 50% WoE skill reduction.

Are there any skills that specifically don't seem to have that reduction happen? Or are now entirely broken/over powered now?

The royal guard and rune knight skills, and sura's gfist. What else do we complain about?

I think 40% was great, give us 50% to try out but...why fix it if it ain't broken now. ^^

[Ralis]

191+ aspd +10 kvm jur crit gx is nothing to laugh about, and that's not even gettin into their poisons

Tell me about it. Only issue they have is with quick leveling. With these reductions I'm having trouble bringing down Sins as they physically attack me to death.

And then I can't even do anything after I get poisoned. @@

[Aeolus]

That is the worst kind of WoE anyone could ever imagine where an aspect of the game doesn't boil down to who has the most skill or team play but merely your ability purely derives from your level and whatever gear you bought or borrowed. Back then skill meant something now as you say yourself (for which I take offense too) all comes down to level and gear neither of which are remotley hard to get if so wished.
With levels coming only from time spent and gear from relying on others stronger than yourself or more organised or even at best situation, back to merely time spent again this time hunting items instead of monsters. Neither has any relationship with skill/ability within a PvP based enviroment.

Never heard of your Wiz which would mean you were not in the guild for long or did not stand out from the crowd or maybe might have only joined after I quit iRO for while before coming back. Looking at your alts on ROPD, seems you had a character called Bear though.. Now there was a toon named Bear but he was a wizard on Iris who scammed alot of people guild leaders mostly even Eternals guild leader Bobby and then Bear vanished then probably renamed his character with all the scammed gears.
I'm going to assume the two names one of your toon and this wizard from Iris with same name are just a coincidence for your reputations sake.

One last thing who do you think you are to say "yes they may feel useful but they actually really wouldn't have been back then", what you consider useful is not gospel and while you may have felt useless it does not mean all other wizards within that level range were as bad as yourself.

Because you find it easier at 99 does not mean others more skilled at their class would not be able to contribute very much so during WoE even in the 70-80s.

Now one would hope your better at your class than you was back then of which you admit you felt yourself to be inadequate at the time but if your desire for WoE is purely based on "Who can be the highest and have the best gears" then I guess we can not see eye to eye on the matter and I will leave it there as this is detracting from the actual topic.

Hopefully the GMs will read what people have said and will let us know in time what their plans are regarding the balancing issues and other such things we have been discussing. But I hope they keep this damage reduction until they figure out what they are going to do with regard to the balancing of the classes.

He didn't play Iris, the real Eternal was on Loki forever ago.

Thank you Myzery.

And btw if you were actually smart about using ROPD you would have noticed there are still tabs for Loki Chaos and Iris... http://ropd.info/?account=697484

Actually I was quite good at my class but really you've gone way off topic now and this is just getting ridiculous. Obviously WoE has always had that aspect of holy crap the other guild has more god items/mvp cards. But that does not necessarily mean that they are better. Being in Atrocity/Animosity for a while I have learned this a lot more than most. We have never had the most god items or the most mvp cards but we have always done really well. Stop taking this so personally, I'm merely pointing out the obvious which everyone knows about this game and most MMO's. If you have good gear and you're decently smart at playing your class you're going to do better than someone who has worse gear and knows how to play that class the exact same.

[Hrishi]

WoE has always had the aspect of who's had more items on their side, maybe to a greater/lesser degree at times, but it's always been there. Gear's always going to make a difference, whether you like it or not. That cannot really change.

Edited by Resplendent, 15 February 2011 - 04:58 AM.

[GvS666]

We'll look into the feedback of 50% WoE skill reduction.

Are there any skills that specifically don't seem to have that reduction happen? Or are now entirely broken/over powered now?

Sotrm Blast is broken imho. Huge damage, spammable, not possible to break cast and it can be used inside CP.

[dragoonlordz]

Thank you Myzery.

And btw if you were actually smart about using ROPD you would have noticed there are still tabs for Loki Chaos and Iris... http://ropd.info/?account=697484

Actually I was quite good at my class but really you've gone way off topic now and this is just getting ridiculous. Obviously WoE has always had that aspect of holy crap the other guild has more god items/mvp cards. But that does not necessarily mean that they are better. Being in Atrocity/Animosity for a while I have learned this a lot more than most. We have never had the most god items or the most mvp cards but we have always done really well. Stop taking this so personally, I'm merely pointing out the obvious which everyone knows about this game and most MMO's. If you have good gear and you're decently smart at playing your class you're going to do better than someone who has worse gear and knows how to play that class the exact same.

ROPD does not cover Iris even if the tab is there no character data is available from that server.

"and you're decently smart at playing your class"

That is not what you said... What you said was "Who can be the highest and have the best gears" and never mentioned skill so altering your own words after the fact does not erase what you originally meant for which is what people must reply on at the time and not what you might say in future.

What I am saying is WoE should be more about skill and less about level difference (within reason and common sense) and gears will always have a factor but does not make the player better at PvP (while god items most of the time are the exception to this the majority of gear is not god items).

@ Sapphic

Practice what you preach, and adding "LOL" as a retort -emotional self defence mechanism doesn't change this.

@ Mysery

He didn't play Iris, the real Eternal was on Loki forever ago.

There was no REAL Eternal, each server had guilds with simular names and such but they stand on their own with the exception of a guild whom all members switch servers.

Back on topic, I did recieve massive proportional damage via casting classes compared to melee and ranged non magic based damage. Imho Warlocks are not that bad in WoE at higher levels they can do extremely well but as part of a group rather than trying to solo which had become the case in WoE for quite a few classes especially Suras, Genetisists, RK's and very much the case for RG's. As a group activity there really should not be a case where one class is so overpowered in this enviroment that they can take out a whole guild solo even if they are 150, not if the case is only the level difference between say 120-135 vs a 150. The reduction is part way a solution to this by making it viable for people (groups) within 110-135 not be walked over by the first 150 who walks in aka one shot which is what prompted the reduction in the first place.

The party system might have a part to play with regard to WoE but there are many other threads relating specifically to that flawed system and therefor has already been covered on a grand scale on these forums, which is why I would like to focus on WoE game mechanics and skills and classes specifically not the party system.

As far as GX goes as it stands right now I'm happy they are doing well in WoE but if they do become OP then that can be delt with at a later date. Most of the poisons have a use and if your using crit lock to do your damage its different to a specific skill that can be nerfed or not. I can't see an obvious fix for using normal melee attacks with high ASPD crits as other than nerfing the poisons there really isn't much you can do tbh, however the poisons are not easy to farm and take alot of time.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 15 February 2011 - 03:51 AM.

[Myzery]

You're the one who assumed he was from Iris. The Loki Eternal existed way before Iris was even thought of.

[Resplendent]

Leave the fighting for WoE, this thread is for feedback.

[dragoonlordz]

You're the one who assumed he was from Iris. The Loki Eternal existed way before Iris was even thought of.

I was talking about Eternal guild on Iris not Loki when he/she said he was in Eternal referring clearly to the pictures of the guild and members I posted which was Iris based. I merely went by his reply to mine regarding the Eternal on Iris. So the one jumping to assumptions was not started by myself. The fact they existed before Iris has zero relevence to the discussion as there x amount of words to choose in languages there were bound to be guilds of simular names on each server that have no relation to each other, but his or her reply was about my screenshots of the guild on Iris not Loki so yes if someone refers to a guild I showed and says they was in it I think that means they mean the one I showed...

Either way it doesn't really make any difference to the topic of Woe Damage Reductions and the discussion I had with him or her was in reply to the issues that was spoke about in response to my original posting. I have no intention of replying to previous non topic based discussions from this point on tbh.

Also I apologise if is taken the wrong way but I do actually want to get back to the topic in hand.


Edited for clarification: If GX does become incredably hard to kill (though I doubt will be case) they could always get nerfed at a later date and according to a GX I know they get spotted with Maya Purple anyways so if you know they are there you can deal with them before they pop out crit lock or poison you.

I'm not sure what's happened to Hell Plants did they have their damage reduced also if anyone who fought against a Bio using them during last WoE could let me know.

Also does anyone use Occult in WoE these days is it good damage still against high VIT in a PvP enviroment? I don't see anyone using it anymore which is a shame when fun skills are made useless mainly by gear effects. (Also yes it did used to be used in PvP prior to Trans-classes.)

Edited by dragoonlordz, 15 February 2011 - 08:11 AM.

[Wizard]

Magic skills

Warlock

Soul Expansion ---> Lot of Warlocks use this skill for the WI/SE Combo... but the damage is not that great as it is suppose to be... 80% damage base please =)
Crimson Rock ---> It used to stun people in your own party... but after they fixed, no one uses this skill that often...
Hell Inferno
Comet ---> make it 80% damage base in WoE environment since the cast delay for it is quite a lot...
Frost Misty
Jack frost
Chain Lightning ---> 1 of our few offensive skills... it will be great if it can deal 80% damage base for WoE as well...
Earth Strain ---> Mostly Divest Skill but having it a t 60% damage base as before would be great.
Tetra Vortex ---> The Ultimate Skill... not being able to output that much damage will be sad since it takes a lot of skill points and time to prepare it... let it be at 80% damage base as I suggested for Comet.

Trans/2nd

Stave Crasher
Napalm Vulcan
Water ball
Storm Gust
Jupitel Thunder
Lord of Vermilion
Sightrasher
Meteor Storm
Earth Spike
Heavens Drive
Frost Nova

Majority magic skills that cause damage and I dont think you want me to write down the 1st class skills.

^ This... and fixed =)

Edited by Wizard, 15 February 2011 - 06:09 AM.

[Kadnya]

I don't think you need to list skills like frost nova or sight trasher who absolutely nobody uses for damage... before that, make Adoramus have no reduction or just a few reduction: it takes prerequisites, a cathalyst, and about as much DPS as a bolt (not to forget it is holy and completely negated by RG/Priest armor endows). For an ultimate magic damage skill from bishop, it should at least do some damage.

[Andini]

IIf GX does become incredably hard to kill (though I doubt will be case because doesn't Maya Purple still see them while cloaked) so would have chance to react before crit locked?
Also does anyone use Occult in WoE these days is it good damage still against high VIT in a PvP enviroment?

what is this i dont even

[Doddler]

Regarding what is being effected by race/element etc. That is a big problem we are running into already. finding out which skills are ignoring them is a valuable help to us. I may have to ask to have made or make myself a list of all the damage skills in the game and see if the community can help me fill it in.

Luckily, this kind of thing is very consistant. If the damage doesn't come from your attack power (weapon/status attack or equip bonuses), then it isn't reduced by demihuman/elemental resistance, period. In the case that the skill includes attack plus additional bonus damage from some other formula, only the attack damage is reduced. Like firing trap includes your base attack power (100%) plus special trap damage on top of that... wearing a thara frog shield will reduce the base attack power portion, but not the trap damage portion. So this includes, but is not limited to:

Gate of Hell (Bonus from HP/SP)
Knuckle Arrow (Bonus from target weight)
Clashing Spiral (Bonus from weapon weight)
Dragon Breath (All of it)
Cluster Bomb
Firing Trap
Hell's Plant (All of it)
Self Destruction

There's others, but that's what comes to mind immediately. Unlike physical attacks, magic is always reduced correctly.

Most skills in my testing plainly ignored element even with endow on... this did not make me too happy (or it was only element on the weapon not the str). Right now I believe there is a bigger fix needed with the damage formulas in general to make the calculations work as they should. That would increase both defense and offense in PVP scenarios, but the extra plus for defense is that you have a few more options for defense whereas offense can't really scale much differently for options. (I don't think this last paragraph is very clear).

Elemental resistance is again simple to determine. If the damage comes from status attack power, it won't be affected by resistance. If your tests were done without a weapon equipped, then you would receive exactly no reduction from asprika, raydric, etc. I imagine that's by design, as status attack also does not receive elemental damage, so if you are endowed with fire, your status attack (the attack given by your level and stats alone) will still remain neutral. Status attack isn't affected by much of anything, it was theorized when the formula first appeared that the intent with this was to make it so that any of the damage augmentation you did would rely solely on your weapon, making it the most important piece in how much damage you did (as opposed to pre-renewal, where your stats were the most important piece).

The only thing that is consistent really is that elemental armors generally reduce everything. A ghostring will reduce status attack, even if elemental resistance does not affect it. This makes physical jobs abysmal against ghost property monsters, as even with elemental endow, a large portion of their damage will still be neutral and hence negated.

Of course, it's possible that this is just bugged, but I have a feeling that some of this is by design. Maybe. It wouldn't hurt if everything just worked as it should, resistance affected everything, element affected everything, etc.

Edited by Doddler, 15 February 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[Maknificent]

I can't speak for most warlocks...since I have +9 GSoD unlimited foods(+10 & +20) & Hibrams...but I killed a lot of people this WoE even with the reduction and I was able to survive a lot more skills...My JF & CL spam gives me great DPS

[Viri]

Gate of Hell (Bonus from HP/SP)
Knuckle Arrow (Bonus from target weight)
Clashing Spiral (Bonus from weapon weight)
Dragon Breath (All of it)
Cluster Bomb
Firing Trap
Hell's Plant (All of it)
Self Destruction

Cart Cannon(ignores everything other than defense for some reason?)
Warg Strike
Landmine/Blast Mine/Claymore

Still would like to see reflected damage suffer some sort of reduction in siege.


Pretty much every skill people are complaining about. By pretty much I mean every actually.

[Andini]

reflect isnt a big deal

[Maknificent]

You have no idea what your talking about, I'll point that out now for you. Pre-Renewal you did not have to be max level to take part, enjoy and not be raped by those that are max level. Renewal brought with it overly powerfull skills to deal with PvM which when carried over into WoE/PvP kept that extremely powerfull attribute, classes need balancing and living longer in WoE is a benefit not a burden which if people can't see that then they should get their heads examined. Before even Trans WoE was even better still people could take part whatever the level and enjoy it and again did not have to be max level to take down others.

Status level range noone should have 100% chance to inflict on someone else, I seen people complaining about how Howl effects them more so than not even at 150 and they moan about it, you cant have it both ways 100% chance to inflict yet moan when someone can inflict upon yourself just because your 150 does not mean you along with every other benefit of higher stats, higher dmg and health and sp as well as maxed out skill trees.. You do not deserve even more buffs as that is enough to keep all but the egocentric happy.

Also Aeolus WoE was never an endgame back in the early days, it became an endgame for some long long after 2003 when was introduced I believe. Having played from 2004 myself I know for fact all the guilds I joined in all those years, all of them any class and any level from 40 up would WoE and while alot of the lower levels did die the ones from 70 up seemed to hold their own very well. Then trans came and the lower levels died easier due to the large increase in dmg the higher ones were given for going trans from there onwards came the slippery slope to where we are now. Where we have 3rd classes and a massive level jump to 150 with huge bonuses beyond what they should get have made WoE worse due the increase in power they have over what came before and no balancing has yet solved it which is what we all waiting for.

"6x swordsman is not useful at all in any kind of woe environment" They made great spies and lookouts tyvm. We used to WoE with even novices which survived not only all the way to the emp room they didn't die even uptill we broke Emps. If you need proof heres one not only that but check my level only 66 myself at time but I started taking part at 50+ and had no problem taking down level 80-90+ by out thinking and quicker reactions. Renewal ruined it abit but the problem started with trans but it was bareable.. The reduction in damage gives people time again once more to react and come up with solutions which is part of what made the old WoE more enjoyable and more skillfull with it not being a one man/women show at 150 taking down everyone just based on level difference alone, once they balance the classes I'm hoping WoE will finally be back to its glory days but the reduction should stay in place atleast until the balancing is done.

Spoiler

The sooner people realise that an MMO is for many not a very few elitists who if continue to push people away by ever increasing power difference between the top tier and the ones trying to reach it, which is especially seen with the bad game mechanics of how WoE did get worse as each new superior classes got created and the added jump of level range hike along with there 150 bonuses in PvP.. You keep pushing the friendly nice people away to fuel your e-peens and feed your egos sooner or later it really will just be a dozen people left playing with you. The rest will lose interest if they are forced out of an aspect of a game which could hold alot of enjoyment and even competition someone to play against later. Due to level being more important to WoE than skill or gear or willingness to participate, just for the fact someone gained some more levels has no skill and crappy gear can kill you even if your a better player than them because anything they do has 100% chance to effect you if your below just 15 levels lower than them imho is just not a good game mechanic, just because eventually it can be leveled past does not make a bad concept into a good one.

I've been playing since 2003 and the reason why WoE wasn't an endgame back then because there were only like 20-30 99s back then? Grinding 1/1/1 rates back took you months to get to 99...so yea anyone was able to WoE...once it got easier to get to max level aka Hydro/LoD/Turn Ins/Bio 3/Medals you wouldn't WoE on a character that was less than 9x. Back in the day Blacksmiths & vit knights were the best class to play...You needed 100 vit to get past hammer fall...WoE didn't start as an End Game..but it transformed into End Game as it got older...

[Andini]

can we get it so we can sense emps with the skill/observor

[D111]

Perhaps if they put back the 40% reduction for magic, that will be great help for caster class.

Yea,

If they keep the melee to the new reduction but change the Magic back, that would help the casters be more useful again.

[D111]

can we get it so we can sense emps with the skill/observor

This would be awesome.

[dragoonlordz]

Allow Snatch to work on Emps plox :3

...Just kidding.

I agree most people on these ones as the major issues personally imho.

Gate of Hell
Clashing Spiral
Dragon Breath
Cluster Bomb
Hell's Plant
Self Destruction
Cart Cannon
Warg Strike
Howl
Manhole (specifically using two at same time next to each other even as Chaser myself I almost never use two same time right next to each other to keep someone trapped because wouldn't want it done to me instead I tend to use depending on class against trap them go up to them and either gloomy or ignorance them instead with other options opening up to me once gained few levels).

Lastly on my list would be something needs to be done about Reflect.

As far as skills go they for me are the ones with major issues though there are few more that have issues too.

I don't know how productive it would be if everyone listed the ones they have problem with and if they all match up will have a full list of ones that just need to be looked into.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 15 February 2011 - 11:41 AM.

[Wizard]

I can't speak for most warlocks...since I have +9 GSoD unlimited foods(+10 & +20) & Hibrams...but I killed a lot of people this WoE even with the reduction and I was able to survive a lot more skills...My JF & CL spam gives me great DPS

That's true... but I wasn't referring to kill low HP classes... I usually aim towards "rider" classes (RK's & RG's) but even with Hibrams shoes and my +10 GSOD, I get at most 70k damage out of TV... kinda below to what I used to get w/o Hibrams and 40% WoE Reduction...

The good side is that we are able to survive more skills now... then again... for some reason it seems that people don't like that much =(

[Ultimate]

This would be awesome.

Awesome but it'd make it the same as hostaging as before, and ninja'ing.

[Aeolus]

I was talking about Eternal guild on Iris not Loki when he/she said he was in Eternal referring clearly to the pictures of the guild and members I posted which was Iris based. I merely went by his reply to mine regarding the Eternal on Iris. So the one jumping to assumptions was not started by myself. The fact they existed before Iris has zero relevence to the discussion as there x amount of words to choose in languages there were bound to be guilds of simular names on each server that have no relation to each other, but his or her reply was about my screenshots of the guild on Iris not Loki so yes if someone refers to a guild I showed and says they was in it I think that means they mean the one I showed...

Eternal/Elf was started on Loki I believe (Maybe Chaos because its an older server.) And the reason I say that it was started on Loki is because a guild with the same name and same emblem is highly doubtful unless they just copied it.

Back on topic: Reflect needs to be disabled. With a GTB an RG can become pretty much a moving fortress not to mention tao would just end up buffing that even more. There's no reason a class should be able to live Gfist, take no damage from ranged and then be able to deal out any of the damage they actually do receive which is easily out pottable by them due to the increase in effectiveness of pots they get and the amount of HP they have. Not to mention they have a skill which can one shot a majority of the classes.

[Zeca]

reflect isnt a big deal

^