51 replies to this topic

[Wizard]

It is true that there's no incentive as of right now for low/middle guilds to WoE other than fun... but aside the fact that they can't stand against big guilds, some of these mid/low guilds are opting to keep a low profile... at least for the time being, leaving just few people actually WoE'ing nowdays...

The idea of giving a reward for WoE'ing is not a bad idea at all... perhaps giving a second chance to that Token idea? but giving some restrictions as well... something like getting Tokens per castle but with a limit of 2 Tokens per guild so in that way, mid guilds can have a chance to fight between themselves... another idea could be to put a NPC to exchange these Tokens for something useful WoE-related such as potions, blues, gems, etc... since not everyone have god items set to make, with this, Tokens can be useful for everyone... not just useful to someone with God Items Set.

What Heim said last meeting on Ymir was a pretty good idea actually... with that on mind, making God Items is going to be easier and that would give certain advantage to whoever is rolling the seals... the question will be how long do we have to wait to see these changes in game.

[Andini]

before trans, a 99 is not invincible. even a strong guild can be overwhelmed with a large number of low level players. now, a 150 with godly gears can wipe a whole guild or two.

prerenewal, unless it was perhaps 100+ vs a guild of 20 and they lagged the 20 out, no bunch of lvl 80s are gonna beat a guild of 99 trans even if it was 3:1 or more. a 150 with gods cannot wipe a whole guild or even a couple competent people that are lower lvled, UNLESS he/she is fighting people that are like 110. and if a 150 with gods is messing around like that or constantly looking for fights with people around that lvl, then that person is probably horrible when faced with people at their lvl

if there are 150s that are picking on lower lvls and thinking they are awesome then lol

on topic tho, woe needs to give some sort of reward that makes people want to woe. you kno its bad when people that just log on for woe as the thing they like about ro dont even want to do that anymore or have stopped

Edited by Andini, 24 February 2011 - 08:09 AM.

[Misery]

megs don't effect stomr blast?
mine does like 70% more dmg with 2 megs O.o
guess i am doing somethign wrong

[GuardianTK]

megs don't effect stomr blast?
mine does like 70% more dmg with 2 megs O.o
guess i am doing somethign wrong

I thought Int affects Storm blast damage........

[Misery]

int effects the % modifier but way more str makes waaaay mroe atk that can be modified by the big int affected % dmg

[fenryl]

Recently with the lack of WPS or incentive to break forts, small/medium guilds could hold forts without anyone bothering them... the problem is they re not getting much out of those forts because it's all crap ( even god pieces lost a LOT of their value) so when one of the big guilds has time to check out those forts, the battle lasts a few seconds because the small/medium guilds are under-geared and under-supplied. The changes I am asking for would benefit anyone who can hold a fort, and they will not affect the economy (aside from bots income).

PS: please stop digressing so much... storm blast is affected by both int and str ( str is in the base formula, int is the multiplier, w/e just check irowiki for formulas). God items are nowhere near as godly as they were pre-renewal, megs lost half their effect, hammer only really benefits one class,sleips and bris went from not great to kinda good.

Edited by fenryl, 24 February 2011 - 11:46 AM.

[mooMOOmoo]

Some time during pre-renewal on valk server, one high priest completely wiped a guild (about 10-15ish members with a few trans) defending their emp room.

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 24 February 2011 - 01:17 PM.

[Mischelle]

it's just a pile of money spent with absolutely no zeny return.
it just goes straight to the npc and basically pays for the supplies of half a member,
OCAs price lost 80% in a matter of a few weeks

I fail to see how any of this is a problem.

WoE is meant to be a zeny sink, not a force for profit.

2/Change treasure chest drops, add in things like blue potion boxes, witch starsand boxes, karvo boxes etc, basically items that wont change the amount of zeny on the server but will hurt 99% of people who farm those items in game: bots.

Said zeny is used to buy overpriced botted goods for woe,

Pardon me but it sounds like you are just QQing that war is too hardmode for you b/c you are unwilling to spend the time it takes to supply yourself for WoE.

Hundreds of real, actual players used to make most of their money farming WoE related consumables, dozens still do. It annoys you that your Endgame-tier items are reducing in cost while the cost of supplies is constant. You do not deserve free supplies just because you sign on wearing +9s and god gear. You are not better than novices because you sign on wearing +9s and god gear. You cannot justify destroying the only means that these players have of making money because you hypocritically want to slow the bot population.

And yes, I say hypocritically because your cheap WoE supplies come from bots and you have been loving it for years. Loving it. In fact, bot populations are lower than ever. Claiming that WoE supplies are botted is pure conjecture.

The battle lasts a few seconds because the small/medium guilds are under-geared and under-supplied

False. The battle lasts a few seconds because the game is phcking broken. Even if the small/medium guilds were geared AND supplied the battle would still only last a couple seconds because the game is all about instant gibs.

Edited by Mischelle, 24 February 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[fenryl]

I fail to see how any of this is a problem.

WoE is meant to be a zeny sink, not a force for profit.
Pardon me but it sounds like you are just QQing that war is too hardmode for you b/c you are unwilling to spend the time it takes to supply yourself for WoE.
Hundreds of real, actual players used to make most of their money farming WoE related consumables, dozens still do. It annoys you that your Endgame-tier items are reducing in cost while the cost of supplies is constant. You do not deserve free supplies just because you sign on wearing +9s and god gear. You are not better than novices because you sign on wearing +9s and god gear. You cannot justify destroying the only means that these players have of making money because you hypocritically want to slow the bot population. And yes, I say hypocritically because your cheap WoE supplies come from bots and you have been loving it for years. Loving it. In fact, bot populations are lower than ever. Claiming that WoE supplies are botted is pure conjecture.

1/So for a guild to supply itself for woe, you're telling me i have to find a way to make 500-600m every couple of days because there should be no profit at all from getting a fort. I should log on all week just to be able to get 2 hours worth of fun. Either you have never lead a guild before or you don't know what you re talking about.
2/I have yet to meet your "hundreds of real players who farm woe related consumables".. you re delusional.
3/I don't get your whole "we re better than novices" argument.. it sounds like you re frustrated about something but its hardly relevant to this discussion.
4/It's not hypocritical of me to want to slow down the bot population, I was just stating a win/win/win situation, if you care to actually develop why my argument is wrong, I'd gladly listen to it but you've obviously decided to just go for random name calling.

False. The battle lasts a few seconds because the game is phcking broken. Even if the small/medium guilds were geared AND supplied the battle would still only last a couple seconds because the game is all about instant gibs.

Your argument is that gear and supplies don't have any impact on a battle...ok. I usually agree with the stuff you write whoever you are, but this is borderline nonsensical.

[IronFist]

and here i am remembering the days when guild leaders didn't supply guild's (i still use fat whites today in woe)

a small guild can still hold off a large guild
cp team (warlocks rune knights sorcerers mechanics genetic) all these classes can precast on a CP team on any given portal... you have warg bite or white imprison. really its a lack of tactics here (remember here larger guild would have another castle as well)

problem is god items dont help you to survive... they help you to kill and i dont think its fare to allow the creation of more woe1 god items, Make the rich richer and the new poorer.

you have to remember unbound is still in its hay days and they are owneing woe atm... they have no god items but they have the organization to create woe1 god items... they also have the population and the drive

you have these other high tier guild who have withered away,people on log on for woe, they dont recruit and have loads of store god set's but have no drive to make them cause they expect them free, like they expect their double megs to bring them respect and admiration for their godliness in pvp... me personally always destroyed any valk member that walks into pvp...

god items are not earned, they are created by 100 players doing 4 quest, they are made by a guild doing woe week after week with the hope to become renown . many many times i have seen it, just because valkryie has a castle it will be left alone just because of respect or even fear or the 1 player defending

Tatic... if all else fails send in the mechanic

Treasure.. Icepick, Brooca ,Masamune, Hat of the Sun God, Majestic Goat, Moonlight Dagger, Gaia Sword, Executioner, Helm of Angel, Rudra Bow, Jeweled Sword and Poll Axe [1] (half of this stuff its REALLY HARD to acquire)
most of this are level 4 weapon creation quest items needing 90 special ores...

Woe2 treasure is the fact god creation is EASY!!

SUPPOSE U GET WHAT YOU WANT... A FREE SEAL ROLL ONCE HOLD ALDE CASTLE

Edited by IronFist, 24 February 2011 - 03:24 PM.

[Thummaros]

Found a video that might do it.

This is exactly how I feel lol

[Mischelle]

1/So for a guild to supply itself for woe, you're telling me i have to find a way to make 500-600m every couple of days because there should be no profit at all from getting a fort. I should log on all week just to be able to get 2 hours worth of fun. Either you have never lead a guild before or you don't know what you re talking about.

You, personally, spend 500-600M a WoE?

No, you don't. A guild does. Does the guild membership feel that it is the guild's responsibility to pay for the costs of each individual member? If the answer is yes, then that is a problem for the guild leader, not the GM team.

Is it fair for WoE to pay for itself?
Your statements indicate that you believe this to be true.

Should I be able to log into the game for 2 hours every couple days and participate in a GvG event without playing the game at all during any other time or for any other reason?
Your statements indicate either that you also believe this is true, or that you are a hypocrite. If the former condition is the case, get a reality check. If the latter is the case, it is because you believe that hunting supplies should not be a prerequisite for GvG while other activities are necessary (MvP camping?) That would make you a hypocrite because that is a two faced stance on ingame content.

It is not fair for WoE to pay for itself. WoE, or any pvp activity, is meant to be a culmination of a player's in-game effort. That includes everything from hunting rare and useful items (MvP cards/gear) to obtaining the basic tools for operation (pots/edps/bombs). Your belief is that hunting the basic tools should be substituted entirely by WoE treasure. But having to hunt supplies is a basic in-game-mechanic, the same as any other. It is only fair then that the high end gear also be obtainable through WoE treasure boxes, but you make no mention of wanting Valk or Diablous gear to drop from boxes.

2/I have yet to meet your "hundreds of real players who farm woe related consumables".. you re delusional.

"Either you have never played this game before or you have no idea what you are talking about."

Almost every player I know, and every single LK player I know, spend at least some time farming WSS to afford gear. I have known dozens of individual LK players and several hundred players of other classes. I might even have over a hundred screenshots of seeing people I know (in other words, not bots) in Bathories farming WSS alone. That doesn't include all my seperate sightings (and conversations) with real, individual players, farming every item from immortal hearts to poison spores.

4/It's not hypocritical of me to want to slow down the bot population, I was just stating a win/win/win situation, if you care to actually develop why my argument is wrong, I'd gladly listen to it but you've obviously decided to just go for random name calling.

Your argument will not slow down the bot population. You are not very intelligent if you believe your suggestion will do so.

I will elucidate exactly why your suggestion will be ineffective.
WoE boxes begin dropping WoE supplies.
IF WoE boxes completely cover the cost of WoE supplies.
THEN The market for consumables stagnates, Bherbs, WSS, and all WoE item components are now only worth what you can OC them for.
ELSE WoE boxes do not cover the whole cost of WoE supplies.
THEN hunted WoE supplies are still in demand, albeit at a lower profit margin.

To define profit margin in this case, it means the zeny made per time spent hunting said items, mathematically Z(eny)/T(ime).

Do bots care about profit margins?
No, they do not. Bots will continue to hunt and sell supplies because there is zero time investment by the player. Mathematically, their profit margin is infinite because Z is a nonzero positive number and T = 0. You have Z/0 which is infinite regardless of how much or little Z(eny) is involved.
Do players care about profit margins?
Yes, they do. Players will no longer hunt supplies because it is a comparative waste of their time.

In conclusion, your suggestion will not harm or discourage bots at all. To the contrary, it only encourages players to bot. This is because while a player may be interested in actually playing the game and hunting the items themselves if the incentive is great enough (i.e. high prices for hunted items), a player will not be interested in spending their time on the game when the incentive is low. Instead, they will use a bot so that their time is not wasted.
What is considered a "high" and "low" incentive is obv. subjective to each individual. But, it is a fact that one incentive can be higher or lower than another.

Your argument is that gear and supplies don't have any impact on a battle...ok. I usually agree with the stuff you write whoever you are, but this is borderline nonsensical.

I never said that gear and supplies have no impact on a battle. I only said that the battle itself only lasts several seconds. Obviously if one side is more geared than another the better geared side will very predictably win. If both sides are equivalently geared and supplied the victor isn't necessarily predetermined. But, what is a fact is that the fight itself will only last several moments before ending completely.

[fenryl]

You, personally, spend 500-600M a WoE?
No, you don't. A guild does. Does the guild membership feel that it is the guild's responsibility to pay for the costs of each individual member? If the answer is yes, then that is a problem for the guild leader, not the GM team.

I've been playing RO for 5-6 years, in every guild I've been in, supplies were done by guild leaders. Every guild I ve ever heard of followed the same rule. You seem completely disconnected from the reality of our servers.

Is it fair for WoE to pay for itself?
Your statements indicate that you believe this to be true.

I certainly don't think woe should pay for itself, my problem is that, back then here were the benefits of woe: people didnt have 70k hp so they didnt require 4000 potions to stay alive. they needed a few hundreds. Back then, all the random crap that forts droped had an actual value, back then, elus/oris had value, back then when a guild had a god item set it was pretty clear they were gonna make a god item in the near future, and the list goes on. Right now all the pros of holding a woe fort are gone, but the cost of sieging is way above what it used to be, even when you take inflation into account.

So again, no i dont think woe should pay for itself, but right now it's just a zeny sink to accomplish nothing.

Should I be able to log into the game for 2 hours every couple days and participate in a GvG event without playing the game at all during any other time or for any other reason?
Your statements indicate either that you also believe this is true, or that you are a hypocrite. If the former condition is the case, get a reality check. If the latter is the case, it is because you believe that hunting supplies should not be a prerequisite for GvG while other activities are necessary (MvP camping?) That would make you a hypocrite because that is a two faced stance on ingame content.

It is not fair for WoE to pay for itself. WoE, or any pvp activity, is meant to be a culmination of a player's in-game effort. That includes everything from hunting rare and useful items (MvP cards/gear) to obtaining the basic tools for operation (pots/edps/bombs). Your belief is that hunting the basic tools should be substituted entirely by WoE treasure. But having to hunt supplies is a basic in-game-mechanic, the same as any other. It is only fair then that the high end gear also be obtainable through WoE treasure boxes, but you make no mention of wanting Valk or Diablous gear to drop from boxes.

I'm pretty sure you play on ymir, where all the crap you need to siege ( basicaly every class now uses -_-ty loot in ridiculous amount dropped by monsters who are 70 lvls below you, to cast skills) is provided by actual players. On valk it's almost never been the case, 90+% of that loot is provided by bots ( and yes i m very happy about this, if you re gona tell me its fun to hunt 40000 WSS every couple of days is fun, then idk what to tell you, get your bf/gf a whip?).

No, I don't think high end gear should drop in boxes, nor would i want some items that aren't as difficult to get, and help low/average players to make zeny, to be in those boxes. Also you assume that my idea is to get enough wss/karvos/blues/Etc from treasures that it wont be necessary to get them from the market which is not what i said. All i'm saying is that the ratio of what woe costs compared to its benefits is completely -_-ed right now.

I never said that gear and supplies have no impact on a battle. I only said that the battle itself only lasts several seconds. Obviously if one side is more geared than another the better geared side will very predictably win. If both sides are equivalently geared and supplied the victor isn't necessarily predetermined. But, what is a fact is that the fight itself will only last several moments before ending completely.

My point was that a low lvl guild who s trying to compete in siege might get a better chance at surviving more than few seconds if they were given anything worthwhile in the forts they fight for.

[Thummaros]

prerenewal, unless it was perhaps 100+ vs a guild of 20 and they lagged the 20 out, no bunch of lvl 80s are gonna beat a guild of 99 trans even if it was 3:1 or more. a 150 with gods cannot wipe a whole guild or even a couple competent people that are lower lvled, UNLESS he/she is fighting people that are like 110. and if a 150 with gods is messing around like that or constantly looking for fights with people around that lvl, then that person is probably horrible when faced with people at their lvl

Well I did saw a mid-guild use recall. There is about 30 people there (lv from 100 - 140)
Seem good and strong.

Untill a 150 RK from Valk come in. Using Stormblast. 5 second later only that 150 RK and two or three people (RG/RK) survive. =='

[Xellie]

Is not trying to make the very god items and gear you complain about others having incentive enough?

[Thummaros]

Well my guild have a lot of problems about supply too.
I want every member to have fun in woe and don't have to worry about money for supply.

However it is very hard to get enough Zeny to supply everyone as the system currently is.

I use HE-gum for the treasure and only use 2 gum per week. (I log off and never play the guild leader during week /sob )
Even then I only get about 50-60m per castle, but supply is more than 100m for each woe.
I got some God Pieces and sold all of them to get barely enough for supply (can't even imagine that we gonna have any chance of making a God item).

Some week that we got hit by big guilds and cannot get castle. It's really hurt.


I was thinking soo many times to just disband the guild and maybe join some big guild, so we don't have to worry anymore.

But I still wanna try our best to have fun, to do whatever we want, try new plan/combo, get our own castle,
take pictures together after woe, to open our own treasure boxes, etc

If there is anything that could help small guild like us, it would be really nice. =D

[Xellie]

It's not supposed to be easy! and anything that will benefit you will benefit stronger guilds 2x as much.

You just gotta stick with it, learn from your losses, you'll find ways to fix your mistakes.

I don't know how much it will help you, but get people to hunt small amounts of each supply (we used to do like 100 stems each every day. 100 stems per person for my guild came out at about 2000 stems), we'd also collect up spores, blue herbs (in less amounts than stems and spores) people would donate bottles and I would hunt fabrics. I made all the supply and god item part zeny easily from making and selling my own bombs.

And it only takes a little time per guild member. I'm sure any small guild having supply issues can think of something similar. Then all we had to do was sell Elu / ori from castle drops and I'd make extra profits over upgrading (sad grav killed the profit on that)

Things like that help, get everyone involved! It's everyone's guild, not just the leader's. You can't be strong, a kind leader and not have a guild full of friends. You have to balance those things out and make sure everyone does their share.

There are many ways to get by but none of them involve changing WoE.

Edited by Xellie, 24 February 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[Majeh]

idk siege treasures most of the time dont even cover half of the cost of siege and i stop caring about siege covering for siege. best thing to do is get your guildmates to help out where they can to cut down on some costs or do like guild events where drops are for guild funds and such that usually works if u want everyone involved to help out.

[D111]

Yea it has always been a struggle to cover the cost of woe, and like Majeh said the treasures do not do that.

Also it has always been a struggle for medium guilds, but to me that is part of the fun. Yea we get beat up by bigger guilds, but we also have some great fights against medium guilds, that is part of the struggle and what makes the game fun. I think I would be bored if woe was so easy. As far as what makes the big guilds better, to me it seems to be levels, they just have people that are higher level, which is fine, if they are higher level then they have put in the time and deserve the reward of being higher and smacking us in the face. We just need to get out there and level. I know most of us in smaller guilds have busy lives, I work full time and go to school so it is hard to level, but again that is part of the struggle and fun of the game. I don't think woe is messed up, I think we just need to get leveled up and continue to fight it out...

When Guild like Animosity Azure Breeze and Inevitable face off against Punishment, Yoink and Delight the woe videosare awesome and there are some epic fights, they are geared closely the same and they are all near the same levels.

The same goes for when our guild Legends and Absolution go against Chaos Theory and Under The Moonlight, it its a group of guilds similarly matched in size and strength and the fights are long and hard.

To me woe is not broken badly at all, we just need to level and fight people of your same strength.

Peace D...

[jSora]

you have to remember unbound is still in its hay days and they are owneing woe atm... they have no god items but they have the organization to create woe1 god items... they also have the population and the drive

you have these other high tier guild who have withered away,people on log on for woe, they dont recruit and have loads of store god set's but have no drive to make them cause they expect them free, like they expect their double megs to bring them respect and admiration for their godliness in pvp... me personally always destroyed any valk member that walks into pvp...

god items are not earned, they are created by 100 players doing 4 quest, they are made by a guild doing woe week after week with the hope to become renown . many many times i have seen it, just because valkryie has a castle it will be left alone just because of respect or even fear or the 1 player defending

This is just wrong on so many levels.....

If Unbound has the organization and the drive to create a god item set, why haven't you done so?

Because they are not earned from the work of players sending 100 characters through quests..... when that effort can be so easily snatched away by someone waiting and lurking and being able to get to the NPC before you.

People don't leave Valk alone out of respect or fear.... they leave Valk alone due to the futility of their presence. Believe what you want, but the top-tier guilds are more skilled than the rest. Not to mention majority of those in the top tier guilds actually put more effort into their characters already to get to level 150 so they can perform better in seige.


If all of the top-tier guilds stopped fighting each other for a seige, and actually cared enough to still seige...... I would love to see how many of these other guilds will handle themselves after all their talks of "owning it up each seige". I also laugh at the people who brag about how their guild was the best guild in a particular seige because they ended up with 3 1/1 castles because all of the top-tier guilds were preoccupied in a single fort.

[IronFist]

This is just wrong on so many levels.....

If Unbound has the organization and the drive to create a god item set, why haven't you done so?

Because they are not earned from the work of players sending 100 characters through quests..... when that effort can be so easily snatched away by someone waiting and lurking and being able to get to the NPC before you.

Making a god items requires patients, i dont think a god item creation can be easily snatched away. iv had to fight it out in guild dungeons a few times and im sure in the future i will again...
for people who dont have god items they dont take making one very lightly... me personally would make sure 100% that when those seals rolled i was the first to that npc.. i would have 5+ members in every dungeon and the dungeon the guild leaders in is unaccessible to competing guilds.

Also u dont need skill's when your a valk RK with duel megs and sleipnir with 100 str/vit/int... your going to be 1hitting most players with stormblast (Hero)

Tactic's > Skill

p.s. You think a sura that snap's next to you then cursed circle's then gfists you has skill... cause i just think they are an over powered class ....

Skill is when a level 96 monk named Ant Egg killed a level 150 Sura named Sacrilegious

Edited by IronFist, 25 February 2011 - 06:05 AM.

[Trixdee]

I think what a lot of people forget is that WoE was meant for END game. Which means, you level your char and work on getting yourself money and gears in the meantime. If you're barely even 120 going up against 150s of course they are gonna feel WAY overpowered.

Edited by Trixdee, 25 February 2011 - 06:36 AM.

[jSora]

First off I doubt you can even grab 4 different forts like that. Secondly, even if you were able to get into each dungeon and have a nice group to fight off others.... it makes no difference.

With the introduction of res tokens, the whole fighting against competition went away. I've camped the NPC on loki for 3 days straight before, with one full day another guild wishing they could get me out, but laying dead with a deadly on ready to pop up and beat them.

[Wizard]

When Guild like Animosity Azure Breeze and Inevitable face off against Punishment, Yoink and Delight the woe videos are awesome and there are some epic fights, they are geared closely the same and they are all near the same levels.

Thanks =)... it's all about my cute Warlock xD

lol leaving jokes aside... I believe if there were some kind of reward for not just mid guilds but for everyone in limited proportions so there will be no abuse of it... More people will find WoE more attractive and perhaps they will decide to participate in it...

[IronFist]

I've been playing RO for 5-6 years, in every guild I've been in, supplies were done by guild leaders. Every guild I ve ever heard of followed the same rule. You seem completely disconnected from the reality of our servers.

I certainly don't think woe should pay for itself, my problem is that, back then here were the benefits of woe: people didnt have 70k hp so they didnt require 4000 potions to stay alive. they needed a few hundreds. Back then, all the random crap that forts droped had an actual value, back then, elus/oris had value, back then when a guild had a god item set it was pretty clear they were gonna make a god item in the near future, and the list goes on. Right now all the pros of holding a woe fort are gone, but the cost of sieging is way above what it used to be, even when you take inflation into account.

sometimes it better to die... or hide OR GET OUT OF THE FKN PRECAST AND STOP WASTING ALL MY GOD DAM RANKED SLIM POTIONS!!
cause battles dont last long... if ur going to die ur going to die not matter how many pots you wanna spam...
Id Spend 4mill every week on 4000 white potions.... who gives knights ranked slims >> HONESTLY!!

Woe is not about treasure its not about surplys or zeny hells its not even about how many people you can kill.
WOE is about working together as a guild as a team for the enjoyment of the game, to test your ability to cope under-pressure and to look back a say did you see that...
i guess woe is about memory's