77 replies to this topic

[Chrysanthemum]

Actually my initial intention was to let yall know this isnt the place to discuss soul price and then giving yall a logical explanation and my take on soul so that yall would stop talking about it. Then some immature troll wants to play the "harhar lets post an old cliche meme" game so I had to set him straight. Funny how you're not calling someone who posts a 6 inches long meme out as being offtopic yet you wanna pick on my two liner. Excuse my french but are you "ass-kissing" the vet? Not to mention youre the one who led this thread off topic in the first place and you think you have the right to turn this around on me. harharhar..

"To answer your question as to why I brought up soul prices, I'm concered for the welfare of the server market. Bots and Hackers play into that. "

You need a lesson in economics. Bots wreck economy by mass farming an item raising the supply. And if you know anything about the law of supply and demand, higher supply with constant demand=lower price. YET you go in here complaining about how HIGH soul price is. Like i said earlier making that points basically mean you're supporting the bots since they work in your favor in decreasing soul price. Understand now?

Also people such as Yart and myself and im sure many others had submitted numerous tickets. It is the GMs' slow/lack of reaction that aroused this topic. You should do more reading and studying before you reply.

And now you're insisting I don't know what I'm talking about when I bring up working as a community to get rid of bots and make soul more affordable? So, because I can get cheaper soul from a bot or hacker I should shut my mouth because they're doing what I want to see happen in the market? I'm sorry, but I do have morals - and I don't like bots or hackers. You fail to see the point, again.

Don't go calling me a kiss ass because I don't agree with you. Yurai is wrong to assume that any of those comments you made that were rude were directed at him in the first place, I know I lead this to be what you consider "off topic" - that's my responsibility. Unfortunately my last attempt at bringing this thread back on point was a bit over your head, and I think this post is going to be too.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying and definitely why you're trying so hard to protect yourself here - but starting an argument for the sake of making yourself look better isn't going to fly with me. Everyone knows GMs are few and hard to come by, which is precisely why I raised the point of finding a better system to report bots. Maybe we could all look into finding a way to run player botchecks and if someone fails a botcheck they get booted back to their login screen.

[BigCU]

Someone's still mad. It seems that you fail to notice that you brought it upon yourself with your comments directed obviously towards me.

Brought what upon myself? Your anger and pathetic meme? Oh nooooooooooo...Looks like im not the one who's mad here. "You mad Yurai? You mad? y u mad yurai? butthurt bro? butthurt?". Seems like someone got offended cause they think i was talking about them. hehehahahoho.

And now you're insisting I don't know what I'm talking about when I bring up working as a community to get rid of bots and make soul more affordable? So, because I can get cheaper soul from a bot or hacker I should shut my mouth because they're doing what I want to see happen in the market? I'm sorry, but I do have morals - and I don't like bots or hackers. You fail to see the point, again.

You seriously make no sense. How many times do i have to point it out to you till you get it? Getting rid of bots does not make souls affordable being that theyre the one producing most of it to the economy. Am I communicating with a walnut here ~.~...secondly learn to read and comprehend cause your whole moral gibberish was hard to understand. I stated that bring up high soul price in a bot topic is very contradictory..i guess you couldnt get past that cause you still don't understand simple economics...

[Chrysanthemum]

Brought what upon myself? Your anger and pathetic meme? Oh nooooooooooo...Looks like im not the one who's mad here. "You mad Yurai? You mad? y u mad yurai? butthurt bro? butthurt?". Seems like someone got offended cause they think i was talking about them. hehehahahoho.



You seriously make no sense. How many times do i have to point it out to you till you get it? Getting rid of bots does not make souls affordable being that theyre the one producing most of it to the economy. Am I communicating with a walnut here ~.~...secondly learn to read and comprehend cause your whole moral gibberish was hard to understand. I stated that bring up high soul price in a bot topic is very contradictory..i guess you couldnt get past that cause you still don't understand simple economics...

Honey, I'm saying that bots and hackers should be gone. How's that for in a nutshell?

[wizard898]

I saw a bot grinding in Windia Plains. You heard me. Windia Plains.

[Jumpluffspore]

Brought what upon myself? Your anger and pathetic meme? Oh nooooooooooo...Looks like im not the one who's mad here. "You mad Yurai? You mad? y u mad yurai? butthurt bro? butthurt?". Seems like someone got offended cause they think i was talking about them. hehehahahoho.



You seriously make no sense. How many times do i have to point it out to you till you get it? Getting rid of bots does not make souls affordable being that theyre the one producing most of it to the economy. Am I communicating with a walnut here ~.~...secondly learn to read and comprehend cause your whole moral gibberish was hard to understand. I stated that bring up high soul price in a bot topic is very contradictory..i guess you couldnt get past that cause you still don't understand simple economics...

BigCU, you must be horribly stupid to disagree with the views and important problems brought up by Yurai and Chrysanthemum. You point out Chry's slightly off-topic point about soul prices and yet you contradict your "stick to the topic" mindset by flaming Yurai's use of "U mad?" It is quite clear sir that u mad brah. /back on topic/ What about the pvp hackers? That's still going strong? I haven't seen any recently.

[MichyLee]

No one cares enough to hack this game except this one guild whose name starts with N, and previously F.

[AppleEater]

You seriously make no sense. How many times do i have to point it out to you till you get it? Getting rid of bots does not make souls affordable being that theyre the one producing most of it to the economy. Am I communicating with a walnut here ~.~...secondly learn to read and comprehend cause your whole moral gibberish was hard to understand. I stated that bring up high soul price in a bot topic is very contradictory..i guess you couldnt get past that cause you still don't understand simple economics...

So, basically you do not want bots to disappear because they allow people such as yourself to buy souls for a low cost instead of prolonging the community to be as clean as it can be (bots and hackers as the things that dirty the community), if I got this wrong I'm sorry, but this is the impression I get from reading this comment.

[EnderW]

I've seen some hackers lately you can tell them because they stand in one spot jumping and attacking and hit mobs well outside their range.

but they level much slower than anyone playing the game normally so I doubt they have much impact on the economy if any.

[AppleEater]

I've seen some hackers lately you can tell them because they stand in one spot jumping and attacking and hit mobs well outside their range.

but they level much slower than anyone playing the game normally so I doubt they have much impact on the economy if any.

no no thats not the problem (well kinda is), the main problem is that in chaos maps such as HD (hero's descent) there is limited space in which you can farm, and when that spot is taken, you have to wait for them to be finished or, be an ass to KS them and both not get anything done. Basically the bots will take that spot the whole day in like 2-3 channels, which makes people who actually farm have less chances to have a spot to farm in, get what I mean?

[yartrebo]

I've seen some level very fast - one day one particular bot was hack-grinding in Parmir Sanctuary, lvl 33. Check back a few hours later, lvl 34. Next day, lvl 40+ in Battlesquare.

It's all a matter of hours put in. Some are just bored kids looking to try stuff out and hack for a few minutes. Others do it on a much larger scale. With a broken weapon, a person using the vacuum and god-mode hacks can farm just as fast as an average player can. There's also no fundamental reason why they can't run multiple bots at once, and still watch a movie while they're at it.

Also, most bots will choose the empty channels. Ch5 and ch1 are the most botted channels ... ch3 and ch4, far less. Found a good half-dozen bots in the process of levelling an alt from 0 to 25 (I choose ch5 for lower lag).

Edited by yartrebo, 25 March 2011 - 03:52 PM.

[yartrebo]

no no thats not the problem (well kinda is), the main problem is that in chaos maps such as HD (hero's descent) there is limited space in which you can farm, and when that spot is taken, you have to wait for them to be finished or, be an ass to KS them and both not get anything done. Basically the bots will take that spot the whole day in like 2-3 channels, which makes people who actually farm have less chances to have a spot to farm in, get what I mean?

Even sadder is that it's 'botter' in the singular. Those 5 bots in 2-3 channels are controlled by one person. I'm sure if their gold sold faster, they'd rig up a few more computers and run 10 bots. Yet another reason not to buy from gold sites.

[Midoof]

It really seems like most people in this thread have selective reading. It's really sad that most people turn a blind eye to the bot problems for their own selfish reasons such as keeping soul prices deflated. As Yartrebo has stated, soul prices should be much higher than they are now, and the reason they ARE so cheap is because most of the souls being produced are hunted by the bots. People have seen, recorded, and reported the bots in HD and elsewhere. Here is the typical response:

We apologize for the delay in our response.

We are sorry to hear about the issue that you have experienced with these other users. We will investigate these characters and if necessary take appropriate actions.

Couple days later? Same bots that were reported are still doing their thing. But everyone wins right? I mean c'mon, there's CHEAP souls to craft your gear! In all seriousness, if you really want to know the bots, they don't make themselves hard to find. I'll show you them myself if you have trouble. And for those of you who question how a simple bot that just stands in place jumping/attacking will affect the economy, think of doing that with 4-5 computers for an extended period of time a day, every day.

Apple, if you REALLY think BigC wants the bots to stay, please reread the posts on the first page. Soul is one of the only forms of currency new players can hunt with consistency. Some people want the bots to stay, but you completely missed your mark.

Lol @ at all the apathy to this immense problem.

[BigCU]

BigCU, you must be horribly stupid to disagree with the views and important problems brought up by Yurai and Chrysanthemum. You point out Chry's slightly off-topic point about soul prices and yet you contradict your "stick to the topic" mindset by flaming Yurai's use of "U mad?" It is quite clear sir that u mad brah. /back on topic/ What about the pvp hackers? That's still going strong? I haven't seen any recently.

oh? what important problems that they brought up? That soul are overpriced? Reading previous post I see yurai saying "noone cares enough to bot" "I dont want to pay 1k in soul to legend my gears" and Chrysanthemum saying "Soul price needs to stablize". All in a bot topic. They're not slightly off topic theyre completely off-topic and yes so am i, and so are you. A fool could see you went in here to flame me and kiss ass. Then tried so hard to end your post with something that make it seems like youre sticking to topic. Its pathetic.

So, basically you do not want bots to disappear because they allow people such as yourself to buy souls for a low cost instead of prolonging the community to be as clean as it can be (bots and hackers as the things that dirty the community), if I got this wrong I'm sorry, but this is the impression I get from reading this comment.

If you actually follow the thread before you post you wouldnt end up looking stupid with this remark..Midoof pretty much sums up what i wanted to say.



seriously how many people are going to continue to post for asskissing purposes and saying stuffs they have no clue about.

Oh let me pull Jumpluff and end with something relevant:
Bottom line is bots are farming souls, hackers are exploiting lavalon, and the illegal IM seller is still frolicking happily because of WarpPortal's slow/lack of reaction. Hopefully this thread/more complaints from the community will get them to step up their game. !!!

[Chrysanthemum]

It really seems like most people in this thread have selective reading. It's really sad that most people turn a blind eye to the bot problems for their own selfish reasons such as keeping soul prices deflated. As Yartrebo has stated, soul prices should be much higher than they are now, and the reason they ARE so cheap is because most of the souls being produced are hunted by the bots. People have seen, recorded, and reported the bots in HD and elsewhere.

This. I wouldn't have a problem with souls stabilizing around an acceptable price so long as players within the community had the hardwork put in to back up their pricing.

The root cause and issue within all of this, soul pricing aside, is that botting is an unacceptable practice and we need to find a way that we players can aid the GMs in their efforts to put an end to it. If we can steal the gold from under the gold sellers behinds they're going to go do their business elsewhere, or risk running blackhat hacks and getting into trouble with the server itself for severely tampering with the game.

If the GMs could pay attention to what a few of us have said here, particularily our theories on how to better deal with bots when we see them, we can move onto a more stable economy and effectively (maybe idyllically) happier players. I'm glad all of this discussion is happening and hopefully if we keep on explaining our unhappiness with botters and hacks then someone's going to listen and implement a practical way for a player to run, at the very least, individual bot checks in environment areas of the game where botting would occur.

This will hopefully open up farming lanes, as previously mentioned were being taken over by bots, for players who want to farm and feed into our economy in a more positive manner.

oh? what important problems that they brought up? That soul are overpriced? Reading previous post I see yurai saying "noone cares enough to bot" "I dont want to pay 1k in soul to legend my gears" and Chrysanthemum saying "Soul price needs to stablize". All in a bot topic. They're not slightly off topic theyre completely off-topic and yes so am i, and so are you. A fool could see you went in here to flame me and kiss ass. Then tried so hard to end your post with something that make it seems like youre sticking to topic. Its pathetic.

Is this back on topic enough for you quit to your QQing? I don't think we're the ones suffering from delusions of grandeur in this thread. You came in to start an argument for the sake of proving just how anti what? Anti-everythinganyonesaystoyou you are? Come on. You're not being constructive in the least and if I were you in your position I'd withdraw from this thread.

Edited by Chrysanthemum, 25 March 2011 - 06:56 PM.

[BigCU]

good job editing your post to reply to me . Seems like you still can't let go of soul prices. You're the one QQing here.

All your posts has so many flaws and stupidity it hurts my brain to read em.

Community hard work to back up pricing? Hey if you see a bot selling souls for 150g a stack vs a player selling 200g per stack who do you buy from? You seem to miss the point that the soul consumers are lazy and cheap. They dont want to hunt the souls themselves yet they want it for a cheap price. And guess who can fit their needs? BOTTERS. Because as Yart,Midoof, and MYSELF stated, Soul prices would be HIGHER if it was produced by legit players. Simply because of the repetitiveness and time consuming efforts to hunt them.

Also your whole "hey lets come up with bots prevention theories" Might seem like youre helping the cause when you completely missed the point. As Midoof has shown in his post. WP's reaction is late and horrible. The players are trying, the GM justs need to take bot reports more serious.

Btw dont reply to me again until you get past your selective reading and understand the interworking of the economy/server. Your posts are so gibberish that it seriously pains me and soon ima fit the "u mad" statement -teary sad face- ='[

[Yurai]

This "botters are keeping the soul prices down" doesn't really work out. The botters are selling them at 200g/stack in the market while you can get them from players with a megaphone at 150g/stack. If botters were gone, soul prices would drop because there wouldn't be a large amount of overpriced souls in the market to compare with. I don't even see why you're trying to argue the debate of "what if a botter is selling for 150g vs a player for 200g" because it's the other way around.

@Sagasama, his comments are directed towards me, not an assumption. It's something that I stated in the same exact words in a previous thread and now he's bringing it up and getting mad over it.

Edited by Yurai, 25 March 2011 - 08:07 PM.

[Miname]

Go figure out how to do it and post a client without the multiclient check pls.

Disabling multiclient check is easy with some minor scripting, I'm surprised you haven't figured it out.

I'd still avoid doing it though, I don't want to run into unnecessary trouble.

[yartrebo]

This "botters are keeping the soul prices down" doesn't really work out. The botters are selling them at 200g/stack in the market while you can get them from players with a megaphone at 150g/stack. If botters were gone, soul prices would drop because there wouldn't be a large amount of overpriced souls in the market to compare with. I don't even see why you're trying to argue the debate of "what if a botter is selling for 150g vs a player for 200g" because it's the other way around.

That particular botter is just doing his business smartly, since he doesn't need the gold this instant, but rather can wait a few days. Why sell for 150g when the market will bear 190-200g. The bot's prices are updated once or twice a day, based on how the stuff is moving. The ppl selling for 140-170g in response to the megaphones are getting an instant and easy sale of their entire stock, and it comes at a discount of the market rate. The botter appears to do this for a living, and he does seem experienced at it and isn't going to pay a 50g a stack discount to have the buyer come to them. It's still supplying souls and satisfying demand, even if the buyers aren't the smartest people around (and probably not sophisticated enough to have a clue as to the origin of the souls they just bought).

This is just a particular infamous botter in HD. Other botters/hackers might very well sell their souls in response to megaphone offers. It would take a lot of legwork (literally, since you find bots by running around the world) to figure out which ones are botters and not.

Edited by yartrebo, 25 March 2011 - 08:27 PM.

[BigCU]

Looks like you need a lesson in economics too. Sure there are newbies who will CoD you stacks for 150g maybe even 130g, but how many stacks on a large scale are the players/newbies producing? Now compare that to the amount of souls in the entire economy. Why do you think the bots can price em at 200g knowing there are lower sellers? Because they know your newbies/low sellers are quickly bought out and people would turn to them. Why do you think the newbies are selling at over 100g as oppose to 50g? Because the bots and other players provide a guide line of 200g per stack. Since newbs are desperate they'll go much lower for a quick buck.

Your thinking is totally backward. If bots werent around soul hunters like myself would price em at 250-300 per stacks and the newbies who sells to you for 150g would start demanding 200g per stack.
Oh incase some other selective readers who doesnt follow the thread wanna comment on what i just said. I am not supporting bots nor do i want soul prices to be low. Im just giving factual info on bots impact on the economy.

Regarding the quote i used. Oh that was you, Yurai?! I couldnt recall who said it i just put out a quote i remember seeing a veteran said over a month ago. Sorry if it offended you man..please dont be upset with me.


edit: this was made in reply to Yurai's post btw.

Edited by BigCU, 25 March 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[Miname]

HD bots aren't banned. Just saw a whole bunch last night. Same ones as before the forums went down. Their markets were jam-packed with souls too, so appears that they've been active.

Yep, I accidentally jumped the gun, and posted this before forums down in the time when we could not find the bots for a week :/

[Miname]

Looks like you need a lesson in economics too. Sure there are newbies who will CoD you stacks for 150g maybe even 130g, but how many stacks on a large scale are the players/newbies producing? Now compare that to the amount of souls in the entire economy. Why do you think the bots can price em at 200g knowing there are lower sellers? Because they know your newbies/low sellers are quickly bought out and people would turn to them. Why do you think the newbies are selling at over 100g as oppose to 50g? Because the bots and other players provide a guide line of 200g per stack. Since newbs are desperate they'll go much lower for a quick buck.

Your thinking is totally backward. If bots werent around soul hunters like myself would price em at 250-300 per stacks and the newbies who sells to you for 150g would start demanding 200g per stack.
Oh incase some other selective readers who doesnt follow the thread wanna comment on what i just said. I am not supporting bots nor do i want soul prices to be low. Im just giving factual info on bots impact on the economy.

Regarding the quote i used. Oh that was you, Yurai?! I couldnt recall who said it i just put out a quote i remember seeing a veteran said over a month ago. Sorry if it offended you man..please dont be upset with me.


edit: this was made in reply to Yurai's post btw.

LOL I was wondering who this was directed toward until I saw the edit.

[ImDiene]

Who would even buy souls at 300g a stack? I doubt anyone (or a negligible amount of people) even buys them at 200g a stack (unless it's Yurai ragecrafting)

And I doubt getting rid of bots would lead to such extreme inflation if no one is willing to buy at that price. Plenty of normal players sell for reasonable amounts.

Let's follow market trends!
Pre-rose --> 140g/stack
Yurai megaphones 200g/stack --> 200g/stack
Yurai gets his stats and stops devouring souls --> 150g/stack

What controls souls prices? Supply and demand? NOPE! YURAI DOES!

[Miname]

Who would even buy souls at 300g a stack? I doubt anyone (or a negligible amount of people) even buys them at 200g a stack (unless it's Yurai ragecrafting)

And I doubt getting rid of bots would lead to such extreme inflation if no one is willing to buy at that price. Plenty of normal players sell for reasonable amounts.

Let's follow market trends!
Pre-rose --> 140g/stack
Yurai megaphones 200g/stack --> 200g/stack
Yurai gets his stats and stops devouring souls --> 150g/stack

What controls souls prices? Supply and demand? NOPE! YURAI DOES!

ok

[BigCU]

Who would even buy souls at 300g a stack? I doubt anyone (or a negligible amount of people) even buys them at 200g a stack (unless it's Yurai ragecrafting)

And I doubt getting rid of bots would lead to such extreme inflation if no one is willing to buy at that price. Plenty of normal players sell for reasonable amounts.

Let's follow market trends!
Pre-rose --> 140g/stack
Yurai megaphones 200g/stack --> 200g/stack
Yurai gets his stats and stops devouring souls --> 150g/stack

What controls souls prices? Supply and demand? NOPE! YURAI DOES!

Normal people and reasonable amount. Lol youre trying to put a price on people's patience/endurance/time?

Also you're really overestimating your lover, dear. Unless he continuously buys gold from selling sites..but i wouldnt know about that .

[yartrebo]

Who would even buy souls at 300g a stack? I doubt anyone (or a negligible amount of people) even buys them at 200g a stack (unless it's Yurai ragecrafting)

And I doubt getting rid of bots would lead to such extreme inflation if no one is willing to buy at that price. Plenty of normal players sell for reasonable amounts.

Let's follow market trends!
Pre-rose --> 140g/stack
Yurai megaphones 200g/stack --> 200g/stack
Yurai gets his stats and stops devouring souls --> 150g/stack

What controls souls prices? Supply and demand? NOPE! YURAI DOES!

The day the rose came, ice continent also came in, meaning much new stuff to craft. It came without warning and followed some 4 months or so with no releases of new equipment of note. One week later, rank farming is removed. Considering top farmers could get 10-15 stacks in 2 hrs (4 clients), that's a lot of supply removed.

During this time, F7 is introduced and we get a St. Patricks Day event that actually provides a good amount of gold, which should cause general inflation (and many equipment prices are indeed up greatly).

Yet soul prices only gain 10-20g or so. The missing event is the beginning of widescale botting on this server, followed by the appearance of a hack a few weeks later, which happened around the time that ice continent was released.