77 replies to this topic

[Coolsam]

I'm guessing botters get a warning 30-day ban if caught then a perm ban for a 2nd time. Imagine if they reset levels like runescape does.

[Yurai]

The day the rose came, ice continent also came in, meaning much new stuff to craft. It came without warning and followed some 4 months or so with no releases of new equipment of note. One week later, rank farming is removed. Considering top farmers could get 10-15 stacks in 2 hrs (4 clients), that's a lot of supply removed.

During this time, F7 is introduced and we get a St. Patricks Day event that actually provides a good amount of gold, which should cause general inflation (and many equipment prices are indeed up greatly).

Yet soul prices only gain 10-20g or so. The missing event is the beginning of widescale botting on this server, followed by the appearance of a hack a few weeks later, which happened around the time that ice continent was released.

The botters have been there for a while so how can you attribute a "low price" of 200g/stack to them? You say that the missing event is the beginning of widescale botting, but you are neglecting the actual demand. There aren't people who are willing to shell out 300g/stack, so it would not inflate to that price in the first place. Honestly, there's too many factors to take into consideration here and the weight of each is ambiguous.

• Who would farm souls?
• Who would pay more than 200g/stack?
• How much has demand gone down since the 5% sc rose has expired?
• Who still does large amounts of soulcrafting?

It's difficult to predict what would happen (whether stay the same or decrease), but it certainly wouldn't increase if people aren't willing to pay that much for souls. If prices did go up, there would still be people who are trying to actually sell the souls and not keep them in the market for show, so prices would partly deflate thanks to them. In addition, if the price becomes something that people are not willing to pay for, where is the threshold between buying souls and just farming them instead? If people farm souls themselves, the demand for marketed souls would decrease, or encourage people who didn't previously farm souls to start farming souls for profit. As more people farm souls, price would inevitably drop again.

Sure, you think that 300g/stack is a fair price for souls, but that's because you sell them. Everyone wants the most they can get out of their items, but if there's no demand for them, they're still not going to sell. I know you farm souls, so your opinion on a fair price is biased. Of course, I consume lots of souls, so my opinion is biased as well. I don't intend on arguing a fair price of souls, but I still don't think the elimination of botters would greatly impact the soul market.

[BigCU]

The botters have been there for a while so how can you attribute a "low price" of 200g/stack to them? You say that the missing event is the beginning of widescale botting, but you are neglecting the actual demand. There aren't people who are willing to shell out 300g/stack, so it would not inflate to that price in the first place. Honestly, there's too many factors to take into consideration here and the weight of each is ambiguous.

• Who would farm souls?
• Who would pay more than 200g/stack?
• How much has demand gone down since the 5% sc rose has expired?
• Who still does large amounts of soulcrafting?

It's difficult to predict what would happen (whether stay the same or decrease), but it certainly wouldn't increase if people aren't willing to pay that much for souls. If prices did go up, there would still be people who are trying to actually sell the souls and not keep them in the market for show, so prices would partly deflate thanks to them. In addition, if the price becomes something that people are not willing to pay for, where is the threshold between buying souls and just farming them instead? If people farm souls themselves, the demand for marketed souls would decrease, or encourage people who didn't previously farm souls to start farming souls for profit. As more people farm souls, price would inevitably drop again.

Sure, you think that 300g/stack is a fair price for souls, but that's because you sell them. Everyone wants the most they can get out of their items, but if there's no demand for them, they're still not going to sell. I know you farm souls, so your opinion on a fair price is biased. Of course, I consume lots of souls, so my opinion is biased as well. I don't intend on arguing a fair price of souls, but I still don't think the elimination of botters would greatly impact the soul market.

You forgot the most important factor of all. Who consume souls? EVERYONE. On the bolded part: Finally saying something ear appealing.

[Miname]

Soul prices should also reflect the amount of human labor and time it takes to accumulate them, which is -a lot-

[Yurai]

You forgot the most important factor of all. Who consume souls? EVERYONE. On the bolded part: Finally saying something ear appealing.

You also forget that the amount of souls some people consume is a large percent of the entire market. Most people just follow the trend of the large buyers.

Edited by Yurai, 25 March 2011 - 10:55 PM.

[AppleEater]

Jesus Christ, lets just go back to the good ol days and make it 100g then

[yartrebo]

Jesus Christ, lets just go back to the good ol days and make it 100g then

Can we get back our old drop rates too?

[EnderW]

no no thats not the problem (well kinda is), the main problem is that in chaos maps such as HD (hero's descent) there is limited space in which you can farm, and when that spot is taken, you have to wait for them to be finished or, be an ass to KS them and both not get anything done. Basically the bots will take that spot the whole day in like 2-3 channels, which makes people who actually farm have less chances to have a spot to farm in, get what I mean?

I don't know why you would bother to farm in chaos maps anymore (anything you can get from it can be gotten from other places easy enough and at times at a higher rate) the only reason to go into them now is for chaos gear and they can't stop you from doing that.

Also there will likely always be KSers regardless of botters

[yartrebo]

Chaos maps are by far the fastest way to get souls, and nearly the fastest way to get gada coins.

[DaShizzWizz]

So I guess IP Bans Are Out Of The Question?

Edited by DaShizzWizz, 29 March 2011 - 03:35 PM.

[Miname]

So I guess IP Bans Are Out Of The Question?

IP bans are pretty dumb IMO, as most DHCP lease times set by ISPs sometimes expire within a few days. It's also sometimes possible to get a new IP from your ISP by disconnecting your modem and waiting for a new dynamic IP.
Or if you attend a school like mine that owns an entire class B subnet, it's quite trivial to renew your DHCP lease in order to get a new IP.

A better solution would to have GM's actively patrolling maps.
(I'd be willing to donate my time in order to ban a few botters/hackers )

Edited by Miname, 29 March 2011 - 10:22 PM.

[Faithx]

A better solution would to have GM's actively patrolling maps.

How do you know they aren't?
Maybe they have better things to do...

like stare at yurai's disgustingly kawaii character in the shower

[Miname]

How do you know they aren't?
Maybe they have better things to do...

like stare at yurai's disgustingly kawaii character in the shower

It's obvious that they are not.

[yartrebo]

(I'd be willing to donate my time in order to ban a few botters/hackers )

I am too.

[Coolsam]

I saw the bots at Steven Trading port and Bearded Whale Coast and lets just say they spazz out like no ones business. They do nothing but somehow spam one skill while bouncing up and down. The weird thing is the bot in Bearded Whale Coast spammed minigun which I don't think has a short enough cooldown to spam even with a cooldown reducer from a paladin.

[yartrebo]

It's a combination of various hacks (probably as a single package since I see so many hackers with the same combination).

- The spazzing is because of a fly hack (which gives them god mode).
- The minigun spam is because of a no-cooldown hack.
- If they're like the other hackers I've seen, they also had a vacuum hack going (allows them to hit mobs even far away).
- If they're like the other hackers I've seen, they also have an auto-loot hack, to let them automatically pick up their ill-gotten goods.


They're also probably botting (macro-style). Haven't seen a hacker yet who doesn't bot too.

[Coolsam]

It's a combination of various hacks (probably as a single package since I see so many hackers with the same combination).

- The spazzing is because of a fly hack (which gives them god mode).
- The minigun spam is because of a no-cooldown hack.
- If they're like the other hackers I've seen, they also had a vacuum hack going (allows them to hit mobs even far away).
- If they're like the other hackers I've seen, they also have an auto-loot hack, to let them automatically pick up their ill-gotten goods.


They're also probably botting (macro-style). Haven't seen a hacker yet who doesn't bot too.

All 4 of those is what they were doing. Although it isn't good experience or gold unless they're at HD. However in an old mmo, people would bot about a dozen alts on the same thing. You think this bot has a way to allow several characters online at once? (Like more than a normal person multi-clienting could do.)

[yartrebo]

All 4 of those is what they were doing. Although it isn't good experience or gold unless they're at HD. However in an old mmo, people would bot about a dozen alts on the same thing. You think this bot has a way to allow several characters online at once? (Like more than a normal person multi-clienting could do.)

Yeah. It can be done rather easily, and doesn't need a hack. Multiple windows users logged in at once, or multiple physical computers. Not sure if virtualization software is barred by the Terms of Service, but that should work too.

The 5 botters in HD are run by a single person, but I'm guessing most of the hackers aren't doing it for profit, and just don't need 10kg a day like the gold sellers do and don't bother to set up more than 1 or 2 bots.

Because bots are automated, the only limit is computer resources, so I would imagine that if enough jerks buy gold from the gold sites, they'd run 100 at a time.

Edited by yartrebo, 30 March 2011 - 11:02 AM.

[Himshim]

I have not seen 1 Gold spammer in almost 2 Months... and even if you do just block them.... The Game is awesome.

[yartrebo]

Funny - I saw the gold spammer bot yesterday and the day before. Even if the bot wasn't around, that doesn't mean that gold sellers don't exist.

And I'm very annoyed as to how the economy gets messed up by the botting and hacking end of it. Can't make good money off of souls - bots sink the price. Can't make good money farming lavalon - hackers using teleport hack and sink the price. Even Kryos F1 is effected due to the generalized inflation from all the event boxes that the botters and hackers get.

PS: The inflation is most evident is stuff that can't be farmed, namely heirloom stuff and IM.

[Coolsam]

Yeah. It can be done rather easily, and doesn't need a hack. Multiple windows users logged in at once, or multiple physical computers. Not sure if virtualization software is barred by the Terms of Service, but that should work too.

The 5 botters in HD are run by a single person, but I'm guessing most of the hackers aren't doing it for profit, and just don't need 10kg a day like the gold sellers do and don't bother to set up more than 1 or 2 bots.

Because bots are automated, the only limit is computer resources, so I would imagine that if enough jerks buy gold from the gold sites, they'd run 100 at a time.

Well they would make sure they'd get alot. I mean people have the potential of making computers with hard drives in the Terra-bytes. But unlike other games ruined by botters, Dragon Saga takes alot to run more than 2 clients. Also some bots have safety measures like "disconnect when GM is in map" options for safety purposes. If a botter had this, GM's would have trouble detecting bots.

But only some MMO's bot makers are smart enough to make those safety measures. Botters in games like Runescape seem to not be smart enough to add that incase of GM appearance. (But in a game like that, GM's are scarcely seen.) But have simulations of taking breaks to trick GM's. But in Wonderland Online, where with a good enough computer, you can run well over 10 clients, (I've attempted and succeeded at this a long time ago) They have "disappear when GM is online" (If your wondering, a friend of mine botted in that game and told me about it. Although it's a completely different company/game so no problem. I quit it anyways.) which can safely fool GM's. (Example: In a mine where you kill weak monsters for decent selling ore, a GM came in and well over 50 people logged out simultaneously. When the GM left, they started coming back.)

Our GM's need to take alot of the botters safety measures into account when searching for bots. However even then you cannot permanently stop them. You can just slow them down for a short while.

[yartrebo]

It takes a few days to relevel a new bot char, and there's only a handful of maps that are suitable for botting. A semi-random sweep 3 times a day should be enough to get the for-profit farmers (current botting software is so rudimentary that it's obvious when you see a bot). And if there is a GM avoidance routine, then equip a GM with a regular char and a bunch of chaos scrolls. And make them invisible (they can do that already, since it's been used for some events).

If the avg lifespan of a bot can be kept to 12 hrs or less of active botting, it'll be quite unprofitable and I doubt the for-profit farmers would go through the bother.

[Coolsam]

It takes a few days to relevel a new bot char, and there's only a handful of maps that are suitable for botting. A semi-random sweep 3 times a day should be enough to get the for-profit farmers (current botting software is so rudimentary that it's obvious when you see a bot). And if there is a GM avoidance routine, then equip a GM with a regular char and a bunch of chaos scrolls. And make them invisible (they can do that already, since it's been used for some events).

If the avg lifespan of a bot can be kept to 12 hrs or less of active botting, it'll be quite unprofitable and I doubt the for-profit farmers would go through the bother.

+1

Your idea would kill their business or lower their profit to a minimal gain. And your method of bypassing their GM avoidance routine would be a great assistance. The GM's in this company are more often seen in-game than I have seen in other MMO's with a bot problem.

[yartrebo]

Soul prices should also reflect the amount of human labor and time it takes to accumulate them, which is -a lot-

I just conducted a sweep of HD, CSS, and CoF

The tally was 8 suspected bots and 2 suspected actual farmers (using two different methods of botting, but with no evidence of hacking or using a modified client).

I guess it would be more accurate to say "Soul prices reflect the amount of machine labor and electrons it takes to accumulate them, which isn't very much."

[Miname]

I just conducted a sweep of HD, CSS, and CoF

The tally was 8 suspected bots and 2 suspected actual farmers (using two different methods of botting, but with no evidence of hacking or using a modified client).

I guess it would be more accurate to say "Soul prices reflect the amount of machine labor and electrons it takes to accumulate them, which isn't very much."

Miname likes yartrebo's post.