302 replies to this topic

[Daray]

everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone..

The problem is that, even if it is harder to implement, it is just as easy for people to pass the restriction as long as you want the clients to be counted per computer taking the "status" (vip or not) into count.
Also it can't be counted per IP due to people playing together from LAN and people using services such as LowerPing.

Even IF somehow the system can be made unbreakable(highly doubt it), I don't think people would party more, or play together more than before. People make these alts (when not to vend) because they are classes/roles that others rarely, if at all, want to play. Removing their ability to play them does not solve the issues that drive people away from playing said roles.

[Rosenthrall]

Discussion on how many to allow, I would love if we could do multi-client for non-VIP to be 2. But everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone.. Someone brought up the idea of 3 years of development to make a feature that is cracked in a week or delays other projects.. I think that limiting to more than 1 but less than x non-VIP is one of those too much work to implement scenarios.

Going by that reasoning, why limit the clients at all? Why risk breaking the game by not allowing warpers, guild suppliers et al, or having players leave because of said inconvenience? And all that is for what-- making people pay more money for premium subscriptions? People who play on free servers aren't second-class just because they don't pay. Rather, people on free servers buy just as much (and possibly more) kafra points as anybody else on a premium server.

People leaving the game just because they aren't allowed to multi-client, you might think it's just sour grapes. But if you seriously consider the various repercussions that will come, maybe there should be that amount of work put into developing this idea, if it really needs to go through. If not, then leave it until it has been fully thought out and designed and implement it at a later date.

Even IF somehow the system can be made unbreakable(highly doubt it), I don't think people would party more, or play together more than before. People make these alts (when not to vend) because they are classes/roles that others rarely, if at all, want to play. Removing their ability to play them does not solve the issues that drive people away from playing said roles.

Completely agreed.

Edited by Rosenthrall, 25 March 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[jax5]

Multi-client : We understand why the Valkyrie population wants it to stay the same as now, with it unlimited. But with it unlimited there is 0 reason for you to not make 20 accounts with 1 character each instead of fewer accts with more characters per account. Multi-clienting increases the load on our DB, lowers actual partying and game interaction and really is more costly for the game to deal with. multi-clienting has never been a bot prevention, but when we check IP and see 20 accounts on one IP we have a pretty good indicator of what is going on. Many valkyrie players look like bots with their play behavior because of how many accounts they use "because they can for free". That was never an intention of the F2P server but it was abused to great extent by otherwise perfectly acceptable players.

I agree that without multi-client limitation that there would be little reason not to make 20 accounts, each with 1 character. On valkyrie, it is some means of multi-player interaction, though. An account with a single character, and not much gear, is not that valuable. It would take less trust to give free access to friends (such as for WoE or certain MvPs).

Additionally, restriction of multiclienting is a new reason why some people wouldn't want to play. There isn't a new reason why people would want to party. Wouldn't the most likely general outcome be less people that play (who still don't party with each other)?

As far as compromise on multi-client restriction, other solutions exist:
1) Create a third account-type tier, that allows unlimited multi-clienting, but without any of the other VIP benefits. Payment for a premium account could include X upgrade codes that temporarily upgrade a base account to this new account tier setting. Alternatively, such upgrade codes could simply be sold (at discount) to any person with a premium account, with limitations as to how many could be purchased. There could even be some sort of new-player bonus added to this new account tier so it could double as a word-of-mouth game sample/advertisement.
2) Implement more account bound items with significant effects. Example: access to an NPC that sells powerful, exclusive, account bound consumables, attained through a difficult and long quest chain. If these consumables are thought of as "must have," then it provides a stronger incentive to have more characters on the same account.

Edited by jax5, 25 March 2011 - 03:30 PM.

[GuardianTK]

@Heim: May I suggest to keep most of the regular card restrictions on Valkyrie Server the same as it is now? It's one of the reasons why I never bought a premium subscription anyways. I'm not amused with GTB's effects. Vitata should be put in though....As it could potentially help new players with the lack of potions in the early game play.

[ensignfluke]

The problem is that, even if it is harder to implement, it is just as easy for people to pass the restriction as long as you want the clients to be counted per computer taking the "status" (vip or not) into count.

I think the point is that if someone goes through the trouble of getting a second, third, whatever number computer, instead of paying Gravity $7 a month for permanent battle manual and gum, then hell, more power to them.

I like the idea of limiting the number of clients. I remember when you could only multi-client if you had another computer or modified the client. There was much more partying going on back then, even though you could easily get a modified client. Not to mention you also had to PAY for another account! That was $24 a month simply to access the game. Now you'll be able to use two accounts for a mere $7 a month, with one (presumably your main leveling one), having nice benefits. It was still harder (or at least more inconvenient) for the average person than simply opening up another official client and making another free account.

My only two complaints are storage possibly being limited to 300 for free accounts, but even that's not that big of a deal, and having Ymir completely locked out for new free players. It would be nice if new players could at least make 1 character on Ymir without paying. We need new blood too. =)

Edited by ensignfluke, 25 March 2011 - 03:34 PM.

[Hirosama]

Uhmm Question abotu the dual client end. Me and my brother both play ro on the same ip adress.....will we not be able to play at the same time gms?

[Kiehl]

Yggdrasil : Will be exactly like Valk will be IE Open server with 3 character creates by Default, and 300 storage by default. This shouldn't be an issue due to the youth of the server not packing up and filling storage quite yet.

If you played for some months on Ygg it's pretty easy to have the same levels of storage fullness.

On Ymir 600/600:


On Ygg 600/600:


That on several accounts + some storage merchants.

[ensignfluke]

Uhmm Question abotu the dual client end. Me and my brother both play ro on the same ip adress.....will we not be able to play at the same time gms?

Unless you two are playing on the same computer at the same time, lol, you won't have any problems.

@Kiehl Sell some of that for heavens sake. Do you really need so much crap?

Edited by ensignfluke, 25 March 2011 - 03:48 PM.

[Sarune]

All servers can get VIP to get bonuses on EXP/Drops/storage/ death penalty and access to special buff NPCs and maps.

Can we have info on this? What kind of buffs will they be offering?

[Kiryu]

While I won't be affected because of the subscription... (hell I can't believe I actually keep 3 subs and random 2 for all the life of valk, when I stopeed playing premiums ._.U) I'm interested about card restriction, I would love to keep GTB out of the market, is one of the main balances on Valk

[igzz]

I think you should just keep the multi-clienting to how it always has been. For years valk players have been able to multi-client and such. It is even one of the things that was better than private servers because you can't multi-client there. Renewal was already a big blow to the player population, if you restrict multi-clienting, even more people might quit. Personally, I would be extremely discouraged to play...I can only play for a few hours each day. And during those hours not a lot of people are on to party with. If I am unable to multi-client, it would really kill RO for me. I'm sure other people would share the same sentiments

Or maybe, you could do something like you need 1 VIP account to multi-client non-VIP accounts.

Regarding the cards (GTB, Deviling, etc.) I think it's better if you just leave those out of valk entirely. Valk has never had those and everyone is pretty happy with that. If someone REALLY wants it they can move their chars to Ymir and play there.

[Beata]

I think they should keep the item restrictions for valk and not force it on Ygg but that just me. IMO, they should simply leave everything the way it is now between the servers in terms of item restrictions (GTB/GR/DR...etc) , teleport sp cost , kafra items: rental gears and convex boxes. Rental items and convex mvp boxes are the last things I want to see on Ymir/Ygg. Keep Ymir/Ygg clean please.

[Gnedenko]

If you played for some months on Ygg it's pretty easy to have the same levels of storage fullness.

On Ymir 600/600:


On Ygg 600/600:


That on several accounts + some storage merchants.

Don't forget to return what you borrow

[Nitro]

Any chance VIP accounts can get improved upgrade rates?

[SirDillhole]

Agreed with Nitro...
VIPs should be treated as VIP, with increased chances on everything, increased storage, and special NPCs.

[eerie]

If the concern about cutting off multi clienting is partying.. Then make heal more effective vs potting. As well as change the experience rewards for individuals partying each other. Leveling with others should be more rewarding then soloing, overall. Just as it was mentioned in the blogs, this is a game which emphasizes on its community. Not how much you can power level or rely on yourself in some weird secluded world.

On the topic of WoE and multi-clienting, WoE is not the only reason people multi-client. So don't turn it into a one note category. Because it isn't! If we only account for your assumed 2% usage during a week; Then you exclude the other purposes for its use.

Multi-clienting should stay, period.

Edited by eerie, 25 March 2011 - 10:54 PM.

[Daray]

I like the idea of limiting the number of clients. I remember when you could only multi-client if you had another computer or modified the client. There was much more partying going on back then, even though you could easily get a modified client. Not to mention you also had to PAY for another account!

Do you think that was due to the client restriction, think hard, back then there were simply more unique players around, more people to fill the roles in, also there were a bit less Niche roles that are potentially boring or plain bad to play in any other situation but X or Y. Putting this restriction in won't magically make more people play the character types people make as alt accounts.

I did also play "back in the day", from Beta until the patch after trans was added. I did own and pay for two accounts.
The point isn't what was at one point a restriction, the point is it hasn't been a restriction for quite some time and people have put serious time and effort into their alts.
This change at this point in time feels very much like they're trying to take something away to bring it back directly for payment, rather than thinking of fun/new ways to get peoples interest in VIP status.


@Heimdallr: While I understand that more clients put more load on your DB and server, I think it's fair to say that they make up less of the load than the bots do. I know you're working to handle that issue too, but if you're really worried about load, put all your focus on that instead of trying to get multi-clienting out of the picture.
Atleast with multi-clienting, more often than not, it's a real player enhancing the player experience for others and himself.

[Miaa]

I agree that 2 non VIP clients would be preferable, OR youre really going to have to try and implement some kind of new NPC offering linked storage/zeny holding across linked WP accounts. Most people probably have thier vendors on different accounts, and if we cant trade with them, then we are pretty much screwed. Also since there is no 'bank' for zeny it will be impossible to transfer zeny between characters on the same account, without the risk of getting scammed by asking a friend/guildie to be a middle-man for you, which im sure gravity dont want to promote......

Im currently on Valk, and probably intend to stay on Valk. Originally i was 100% sure i would become 'VIP' although now im having second thoughts. Other than perma BM/GUM we will be paying the same amount of money as those on Ymir, but getting a much much much reduced service for that same money, bots will still be high, the talk of some cards still not being obtainable. It makes it much harder for people who would usually hand out thier hard earned cash to decide wether it is worth it.

Think of it as being like 2 burger stores across the street from eachother, one is really busy, it will take you ages to get served, there is old food and rubbish all over the place, the burger costs $5, but all your friends are in there. The place across the road is quieter, cleaner, nicer, the burger still costs $5 but you get extras like cheese, and bacon too. The only problem is, you dont know any of the people in there. Do you a) just eat with your friends in the dirty place, take a chance with the new place, starting from scratch and having to find new friends, or c) go to the dirty place but dont bother eating.

[StyxNL]

I don't see much difference between subscription or VIP situation, it is no problem for me personal to play whatever amount of accounts I want.
What bothers me is the average knowledge that is present among the current staff as well as players.
Regarding all multi clients issues, I do understand it is wise to restrict it.
However, the amount of accounts you need are depending on what role you play in this game, certain setups need 3-5 accounts to get maxium efficiency.
For instance Forgers, Brewers.
But we don't play this game like that anymore isn't it? These days we play with the most efficient grind or lvling char.
The choices in Ragnarok are much more restricted compared to the past.
It is logic that community and even staff are mainly busy with this restricted approach to play Ragnarok, it is the average playing community that drives them in that simplified direction.
It is da game for grinding players that have cut out many other abilities to catch up, it has made Ragnarok a simplified grey game instead of the colourfull game with many choices it once was.
Today the games requires being 24/7 behind the screen with a limited choice as efficient char.
It is not a game for a player with restricted time, though I have plenty of that available as well.
Still this development made me loose interest in Ragnarok, I might return sometime but I doubt it, since Renewal gave just a commercial boost and not entertainment.

[Dukeares]

Cutting off multi clienting again?

Seriously....? but limiting only 1 or 2 would mean i cant play and vend all my stuff??? at the same time. i have 5 vendor 24/7 if im not playing and it still not enough...to sell all my junk and guild stuff..

[Yozhuro]

Seems like im one of the few people who are actually excited about whats goin on.

At first I *LOVE* the idea of Ygg becoming like valk.

Infact Im using my VIP account right now for a headstart on ygg (since there will be a flood of new players).

And I say that altough I have all my stuff on ymir, but ymir simply lacks so much population in combination with 99% being 150 third job already including all kinds of god items / uber cards. Its just frustrating to play there (for me).

I was even considering starting on valk again just for the population. But since ygg is still so new and has no population right now (and a bunch of these are gonna transfer anyways) its gonna be like a fresh server.

Also I would not be too afraid about possible card losses, because Im certain that they wont remove any.
Just think like a company: Why should they remove things and risk losses when they could relax the limitations of valk instead and making more profit? (This applies to storage issues aswell).
This new System is a very good thing for evryone on every server. Valk probably will get even all restrictions removed, population increase on ymir, hopefully less bots due the multi client restriction, and a fresh free server.

And while i understand some of the concerns about the multi client restriction: keep in mind they are for evryone and not just you.
Its not like your rival in WoE will have access while you dont. Its everyone. Its fair.

I would vote though for at least 2 possible clients, but limiting it to 1 per computer would also be completely fine.

So please relax and enjoy whats coming without being so worried.

Yozhu

[firzen]

I wanted to give my input on the part where you can't make new characters after 3 unless you are premium.
I disagree with this, at least for us vets, here's why:

All it's gonna make me end up doing is fill up my character slots before the update with characters I don't want to play as yet. I will use them to hold down the slot.

We can easily assume many others will as well.

Problem is, now I will have to assign starting stats, and names for characters I haven't even chosen yet. I will have to live with these choices, as I doubt I will ever pay to change anything.

It will benefit neither of us. I'm sure there will be many others doing the same thing I will. That is why I don't like it. Take it into consideration, please.

It will also discourage players from remaking characters, or dropping their characters for new ones. Or experimenting with the game in general.



Also, as for the multi client issue? What about just not allowing more than one character from the same IP? Sure some people have multiple computers they can use, but screw em.

[Wanderer]

Don't be concerned about the Storage on Ymir yet please. This one is in testing and if it goes appropriately this will be a non-issue.

Yggdrasil : Will be exactly like Valk will be IE Open server with 3 character creates by Default, and 300 storage by default. This shouldn't be an issue due to the youth of the server not packing up and filling storage quite yet.

Valkyrie: Item limits will be relaxed somewhat, like common stuff will drop from monsters like Blue gems, flywings etc. Card limitations are still in discussion.

Bot situation: We will have to keep expanding the bot kill squad to include Yggdrasil.


Multi-client : We understand why the Valkyrie population wants it to stay the same as now, with it unlimited. But with it unlimited there is 0 reason for you to not make 20 accounts with 1 character each instead of fewer accts with more characters per account. Multi-clienting increases the load on our DB, lowers actual partying and game interaction and really is more costly for the game to deal with. multi-clienting has never been a bot prevention, but when we check IP and see 20 accounts on one IP we have a pretty good indicator of what is going on. Many valkyrie players look like bots with their play behavior because of how many accounts they use "because they can for free". That was never an intention of the F2P server but it was abused to great extent by otherwise perfectly acceptable players.

As we have stated, we will try to crack it ourselves, for client swapping, exe modding, sandboxing and any other tricks we come up with. If we can crack it, then it is not useful to implement, because then it will be a point of contention between the fair / limited and the cheating / multi-cliented. Discussion on how many to allow, I would love if we could do multi-client for non-VIP to be 2. But everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone.. Someone brought up the idea of 3 years of development to make a feature that is cracked in a week or delays other projects.. I think that limiting to more than 1 but less than x non-VIP is one of those too much work to implement scenarios.

Again the vast majority of people don't log 20 characters at once, only 1~3 tops and all of them are going to get punished because some nerd runs 20 bots?

[Digimonic]

Let me know if this is the wrong thread to ask this question since I dont usually post....I'm more of the "Hidden Observer Type" that just watches chaos from the background and see how it turns out. Anyways...here is my question: This whole changing the kafra shop items to ymir prices...does that mean they are getting rid of marriage covanants and we just get married the old fashioned way? (IF you dont understand what im talking about I am reffering to paying in zenny by the mills and getting wedding rings. http://forums.warppo...tyle_emoticons/default/happy.gif) Even though thats the least of everyone's conerns, just asking just to be sure. If I may, I would like to add my opionon on the duel clienting issue. It isn't a problem for me since I only use one char account at a time but considering making a 2nd since all my slots are nearly filled. Many have valid points to the vending problem and the economy ect ect. Isnt the auction system that used to exist supposed to help with the selling/buying portions, so you dont have to make venders in the first place? If we are gonna have venders at least have them organized instead of scattered like dragonballs all over pront >.> I found the reset npc a few months back by a small miracle since everyones stores are blocking npcs . If your considering the thought of improving the autcion system so people dont have to vend it would be nice. Also keep the items in the auction house for a set amount of time like 1 week- 1 month, just dont make a rediculous fee like 150k per item to vend or something that equals that lvl of rediculousness lolz. Ok this is to long. I stop now. I'll check in later to see how this thread goes.

[SirDillhole]

Gravity only needs to do one thing...

LISTEN TO US!!!

I don't think they know what their consumers experience when they don't play the game that we play...
All I'm saying is that we're the customers, we're always right (sometimes, people just complain and talk bad because they want the changes to benefit them and screw up others)...

Maybe one of the GMs should make some sort of account and go through all of the process that the customers go through and they should be able to get some sort of idea about what we deal with, and also see how some other people treat others, may it be nice to others or be a-_- to others...