93 replies to this topic

[hungfido]

I agree with Yurai and Maronu. I think we all need to stop thinking that paladins are overpowered in every aspect? Like I said, maybe we should find videos of how other servers (our senior ones) deal with Paladins?
Even though I have no proof, at the back of my mind, I just know that if any stacked class vs a stacked paladin, it will be a 50/50 chance of winning for either. What makes the 51-100 will be skills of the player. I'm probably a hypocrite saying that too.
Anyways... Paladins are getting 4 more skills soon - I'm guessing there will be even more concerns about Paladins.

[Kazra]

WM is high dps against all non mage classes while paladins would have mediocre damage against another def stacked physical class. Savages are useful because they can stack high aim, evade, and crit damage (though not more crit damage than a paladin). Myrms are useful because of stumblebum, like you said. It's a great way to reduce your opponent's aim so that they cannot hit evade stackers on your team. On top of that, the duration is significantly higher than its cooldown. While a paladin can be useful in more scenarios, it doesn't mean that each class doesn't have some kind of a merit that a paladin cannot offer.

I don't see how ninjas cannot counter paladins. April fools cooldown is only 8 seconds while a paladin's barricade has a 30s cooldown. You are also able to cast wood rush at the same frequency that they can cure it. As long as you use woodrush first to force the paladin to enter barricade and cure themselves, inflicting april fools on them afterwards isn't too difficult. Ninjas also have plenty of skills that can disrupt a paladin's lock, so they're useful in that regard also. In the event that hypnotizer does land, there's yet another disabler to work with.

Have fun with that 30% hit rate. You're also forced to have a ground lock class to team with as a WM. Anyways, lets take a 5 man PvP team. Honestly, assuming equivalent gear and skill, if you swapped out the Myrmidon or the Savage or the WM on the team for a Paladin, you're going to have equal or even better results. I guess maybe not the WM if your team has no healers while the other team does. But then again, taking the Paladin and getting a Shaman is much better. Paladins have a low skillcap with high reward. The rest have steeper learning curves with less reward.

Lets see.. attempt to cast april fools? get locked/launched/disrupted somehow. RP to get an april fools off? Too bad paladins outrange you and will block your RP 50% of the time. Even if that doesn't get blocked, april fools will probably get blocked. Wood rush. That depends on landing a stun/disable. Hypnotizer, chance is pretty damn low, and they'll just barricade the first WR. Then you'll most likely have to have someone else disable the paladin. Paladins just have too much mobility since everything can be canceled :|

How about a warmage with 95% pdamage drop or a shaman with full bone and damage drop. Shouldn't strong mages have an advantage over strong paladins, provided the match is long or no time limit, because they have abilities that can restore their mp and they take minimal damage while dealing magic damage. What about burning a paladins hp and mp with disease?

I mostly did my analysis off of average gear and mostly skills that the classes have. I'm not sure if you've realized yet, but gear is one of the things that's breaking PvP. If you want to compare with that, then what DOESN'T a warmage with 95% phys drop or a shaman with full bone and phys drop counter? The game favors defense too highly. That's why you see more people stacking MSPD, health&resists, evade(there's a "cap" so until a certain point) than CD, CR, etc. They only start after they've gotten the defensive stats maxed out or at a decent level.
Also, dodge disease? :| + with some evade it's such a low chance.

I agree with Yurai and Maronu. I think we all need to stop thinking that paladins are overpowered in every aspect? Like I said, maybe we should find videos of how other servers (our senior ones) deal with Paladins?
Even though I have no proof, at the back of my mind, I just know that if any stacked class vs a stacked paladin, it will be a 50/50 chance of winning for either. What makes the 51-100 will be skills of the player. I'm probably a hypocrite saying that too.
Anyways... Paladins are getting 4 more skills soon - I'm guessing there will be even more concerns about Paladins.

I'm just going to say, PvP more. Stacked class vs a stacked paladin. Same skill? Paladin stomps. Challenger slightly more skilled? Paladin wins. Paladin completely retarded? 50-50.
Also, watching other server PvP makes me








I hope Barunson wakes up someday. They should kill all passive block skills. Perhaps give ninjas another defensive option (reduce the cooldown on burrow :|). Make paladins have a toggle that gives block rate at the cost of movespeed.

Edited by Kazra, 15 April 2011 - 08:02 PM.

[Devikn]

Indeed.


Locking, healing and the fact some classes aren't so good in pvp like others, make people lose any interess in PvPing. Of course, the fact someone having a +20 Legendary weapon and you having nothing to contest against it, also make people negative about pvping, but the same way this player got a +20 Legendary weapon, you can do as well. Unless this person is a HUGE IM Player, what brings great disadvantage to players whom don't purchase IM.

A simple skill adjust would solve this problem. The way you can't use an Ultimate Skill on pvp, should be applied to mass stunning skills and healing ones. Making a way where the player can't either lock or heal.

Of course, that depends on Barunson to approve that idea, what if happen, won't happen so soon, but still there is only one exit to all that:

ETHIC

If you pvp against an honest player, just set these rules: No Lock, No Heal. Done. Everything would work, according to how both parts agree to fight in a pvp.

1 PvP victory won't bring anything to you, unless you fight for Emporia or something similiar, but the main purpose of it, is to have fun. So lets stop having this infinite thirsty for victory and play for fun. Let aside your locking moves and healing spams, lets all play fair and revive our yet fallen PvP.

[Kazra]

If you pvp against an honest player, just set these rules: No Lock, No Heal. Done. Everything would work, according to how both parts agree to fight in a pvp.

The active PvPers from THQICE still do that, in 1 v 1's. Actually, most endgame pvpers do that, or you'll just become the new subject of "LOLs" in chatrooms. In group PvPs, its just too hard to determine what is, and isn't a lock. That's why we have heals and locks in group PvP. ie. If we go with the same 1 v 1 locking rules in group, what happens if a paladin SD -> broom -> CC, walks away, then someone else runs in and continues for a round, then leaves and the paladin comes back? Too hard to regulate.

[Yurai]

Have fun with that 30% hit rate. You're also forced to have a ground lock class to team with as a WM. Anyways, lets take a 5 man PvP team. Honestly, assuming equivalent gear and skill, if you swapped out the Myrmidon or the Savage or the WM on the team for a Paladin, you're going to have equal or even better results. I guess maybe not the WM if your team has no healers while the other team does. But then again, taking the Paladin and getting a Shaman is much better. Paladins have a low skillcap with high reward. The rest have steeper learning curves with less reward.

Lets see.. attempt to cast april fools? get locked/launched/disrupted somehow. RP to get an april fools off? Too bad paladins outrange you and will block your RP 50% of the time. Even if that doesn't get blocked, april fools will probably get blocked. Wood rush. That depends on landing a stun/disable. Hypnotizer, chance is pretty damn low, and they'll just barricade the first WR. Then you'll most likely have to have someone else disable the paladin. Paladins just have too much mobility since everything can be canceled :|


I mostly did my analysis off of average gear and mostly skills that the classes have. I'm not sure if you've realized yet, but gear is one of the things that's breaking PvP. If you want to compare with that, then what DOESN'T a warmage with 95% phys drop or a shaman with full bone and phys drop counter? The game favors defense too highly. That's why you see more people stacking MSPD, health&resists, evade(there's a "cap" so until a certain point) than CD, CR, etc. They only start after they've gotten the defensive stats maxed out or at a decent level.
Also, dodge disease? :| + with some evade it's such a low chance.


I'm just going to say, PvP more. Stacked class vs a stacked paladin. Same skill? Paladin stomps. Challenger slightly more skilled? Paladin wins. Paladin completely retarded? 50-50.
Also, watching other server PvP makes me

I hope Barunson wakes up someday. They should kill all passive block skills. Perhaps give ninjas another defensive option (reduce the cooldown on burrow :|). Make paladins have a toggle that gives block rate at the cost of movespeed.

Not sure what the 30% hit rate you're referring to has anything to do with this. In any case, you just admitted that if you swap out the paladin for one of those, you could have equal results. It depends on the combination of the other team; like I said, the paladin is more versatile, but the other classes still have some advantages that the paladin doesn't have.

If you're going to count a defense stacked paladin, then you're going to have to compare with an evade stacked ninja, or it won't be a fair comparison. If you take advantage of ninja canceling, you can get close to a paladin and then pull off a mist, then run a bit farther and RP and just repeat that process. You don't really have to always get close to the paladin and get yourself caught in a combo. I think you should know this yourself already, anyway.

A stacked class against a stacked paladin does not necessary mean that the paladin will win. You can have the most stacked and the most skilled paladin come at me in both of our full gears and I can safely say that it'll either be a draw due to MP, or the paladin would lose. Like I said, ninjas are the only class that can really fight on par with paladins in a 1v1 match if played properly and with enough MP.

Though you say that watching other servers' PvP makes you , I have seen more skilled players on other servers than the constantly decreasing amount of skilled players on our server. The cash imbalance is really throwing off a lot of the older and more skilled players from continuing to play this game and from PvPing seriously.

[MicoJive]

that being said, if theres an invoker out there that wouldnt mind teaching someone how to pvp properly with one...let me know i need help lol

[Kazra]

1. I said equal or even greater results.
2. That's with a team comp specific to a harle, WM, or myrm. Just stuffing in the paladin without regard for its own specialized team comp.

So apparently level 10 block skills means the ninja must have evade to compete? I have not said anything about defense. And okay, I want to see you catch a good paladin with mist :| Also, SD > RP. Or even just move diagonally a bit and crosscut.

Just no.

Show me a PvP video with someone that you consider is more skilled. And also, there's so many things I could say about your examples, but they're not forum appropriate :|


Pointless debating/arguing over this anyways. We both know neither one of us is going to concede.

Edited by Kazra, 15 April 2011 - 10:01 PM.

[Maronu]

Have fun with that 30% hit rate. You're also forced to have a ground lock class to team with as a WM. Anyways, lets take a 5 man PvP team. Honestly, assuming equivalent gear and skill, if you swapped out the Myrmidon or the Savage or the WM on the team for a Paladin, you're going to have equal or even better results. I guess maybe not the WM if your team has no healers while the other team does. But then again, taking the Paladin and getting a Shaman is much better. Paladins have a low skillcap with high reward. The rest have steeper learning curves with less reward.

Lets see.. attempt to cast april fools? get locked/launched/disrupted somehow. RP to get an april fools off? Too bad paladins outrange you and will block your RP 50% of the time. Even if that doesn't get blocked, april fools will probably get blocked. Wood rush. That depends on landing a stun/disable. Hypnotizer, chance is pretty damn low, and they'll just barricade the first WR. Then you'll most likely have to have someone else disable the paladin. Paladins just have too much mobility since everything can be canceled :|


I mostly did my analysis off of average gear and mostly skills that the classes have. I'm not sure if you've realized yet, but gear is one of the things that's breaking PvP. If you want to compare with that, then what DOESN'T a warmage with 95% phys drop or a shaman with full bone and phys drop counter? The game favors defense too highly. That's why you see more people stacking MSPD, health&resists, evade(there's a "cap" so until a certain point) than CD, CR, etc. They only start after they've gotten the defensive stats maxed out or at a decent level.
Also, dodge disease? :| + with some evade it's such a low chance.


I'm just going to say, PvP more. Stacked class vs a stacked paladin. Same skill? Paladin stomps. Challenger slightly more skilled? Paladin wins. Paladin completely retarded? 50-50.
Also, watching other server PvP makes me

Obviously if you place restrictions (no gear, no use of certain skill, etc) it changes the tier list around, and yes, if you remove only gear from the equation, Paladin is definitly the the best 1v1 class. You asked me to provide a counter to stacked mages, but I'm not arguing against the existence of tiers. I'm simply stating that I think both mage classes have more potential to be OP than a paladin in a geared fight.

Of course gear is one of the things breaking the game, but I'm not sure if I can think of a single aspect of pvp that doesn't seem broken, at least imo.

If there wasn't a time limit, you would have all the time you needed to land disease after the paladin runs out of mp, but you won't run out of mp as a warmage or shaman. Freezing the paladin first or using diagonal dash to try to catch them off guard could help land disease, but even if you can't land the skill, in an unlimited duration fight, you would still have all the time in the world to kill them. Another thing to note is that in a timed match the warmage has a way that it can kill the paladin, albeit difficult, but the paladin has no way to kill the warmage.

In group, I would definitely prefer a stacked shaman because heals for everyone is greater than heals for one person.

Geared Tierlist
(based upon my opinion with players as stacked as possible)

Shaman
Warmage
Paladin
Pathfinder
Ninja
Gren
Myrm
Harlequin

[GrapefruitGod]

Do you even pvp

[Kazra]

WM and Shamans geared to the level you described. Okay, they counter everything in the sense that they're unkillable. But they can't kill you either. Best tanks are mages, what a joke. You can have that one.

"Another thing to note is that in a timed match the warmage has a way that it can kill the paladin, albeit difficult, but the paladin has no way to kill the warmage."

^ no. The game will end 0-0. Paladin just has to walk around. Especially with the anti freezing gear.

Your tier list is also pretty flawed, but that's opinion based so I won't argue about that.



On a side note: I like one and a half hour pvp matches.

[Maronu]

Do you even pvp

Not very often. It's kind of a joke, imo.

[Yurai]

1. I said equal or even greater results.
2. That's with a team comp specific to a harle, WM, or myrm. Just stuffing in the paladin without regard for its own specialized team comp.

So apparently level 10 block skills means the ninja must have evade to compete? I have not said anything about defense. And okay, I want to see you catch a good paladin with mist :| Also, SD > RP. Or even just move diagonally a bit and crosscut.

Just no.

Show me a PvP video with someone that you consider is more skilled. And also, there's so many things I could say about your examples, but they're not forum appropriate :|


Pointless debating/arguing over this anyways. We both know neither one of us is going to concede.

What else are you going to stack on a ninja? Hlt and def? That's just a dumb and losing battle compared to the amount of attack, def, and hlt a paladin can stack. Ninjas were never meant to stack hlt. I don't think you can catch a ninja with a pally if both players are geared. How do you expect to catch someone with 70% miss rate and 23% of the leftover hit rate being blocked?

Even if it was gearless, I don't see why you would try to attack a paladin head on. Ninjas have plenty of ranged skills that they can use to their advantage and catch. As long as the ninja stays on the defensive, there isn't much of a problem with catching the paladin before the opposite happens.

I don't think you can accurately balance classes based on their skill set alone, especially in a naked match where those normally useless passives become increasingly useful. Of course it'd be better if all the classes could be balanced, but it isn't bad enough to the point where some classes are completely useless.

[Kazra]

Pointless debating/arguing over this anyways. We both know neither one of us is going to concede.

p.s. if you read carefully, most of your post was already addressed, or are irrelevant. I'll make it clear for you if you want, but through PMs. We're just going to get this thread locked.

[Yurai]

p.s. if you read carefully, most of your post was already addressed, or are irrelevant. I'll make it clear for you if you want, but through PMs. We're just going to get this thread locked.

What are you even talking about? You didn't even address the points I brought up. What does addressing balancing have to do with PMs? I beg to differ, but you're going to get this thread locked if you really need to feel the need to bring insults or whatever you have planned to the discussion. Are you unable to discuss these issues in a civil manner? After all, PvP discussion is relevant to this thread and I see no reason for it to get locked based on that.

[Kazra]

No. I'm pretty sure this thread is about skill balancing and what WE as a community can do to balance PvP. Atm we're just arguing over Paladin vs Ninja, with nothing really to contribute to this discussion. We're not suggesting any limitations, rather just arguing which class would win etc etc. And no, I didn't plan any insults. Why would you think that way? All my insults on MSN, or in game, have been directed as a joke. I've also taken your insults as a joke, unless you meant otherwise. I'm not going to really rage at someone over a game :|

[hungfido]

I'm just going to say, PvP more. Stacked class vs a stacked paladin. Same skill? Paladin stomps. Challenger slightly more skilled? Paladin wins. Paladin completely retarded? 50-50.
Also, watching other server PvP makes me

I'm curious, do you have your own paladin/dragoon? I think it'll be good for everyone to play each class to understand their respective roles in 1v1/gvg. It's not fair for me to say that I understand how every class deals with their own flaws/bugs/imbalances but I believe it's fair for me to say Paladins are not the ultimate class for every aspect of this game. Sure, paladins are quite versatile and got lots of skills that can be exploited but, most of their skills can be readily countered in gvg.

Anyways, at the end of the day, there will always be arguments on how to balance things in pvp itself - that was the point of this discussion right? NOT balancing individual classes/skills. So from what I gather, Time Reverse will be useless in EW+BSQ but will still be active in normal PVP... which means there will always be people exploiting that in pvp. Balancing the mechanism of this game would definitely help too... lag walk/mysterious disappearances/etc.... To be honest, I'm not sure how we could come up with ideas to balance pvp unless we change how pvp works like what Valsu said with a combo-limiter. But any change / every change that is thought up, there will be people who disagree to it and want something else.

Oh ya, I just remembered... doesn't WMs have infinite lock too? Their ice skills are quite awesome at that imo. I don't know how other people+paladins feel but I'm glad they have it, at least I know how it feels to be/get locked. (and yes, it's easy to counter it but still... once u're in it... the wm just needs to time his/her ice skills and you're basically locked for good/quite a long time...)

Edited by hungfido, 16 April 2011 - 08:32 AM.

[GrapefruitGod]

I'm curious, do you have your own paladin/dragoon? I think it'll be good for everyone to play each class to understand their respective roles in 1v1/gvg. It's not fair for me to say that I understand how every class deals with their own flaws/bugs/imbalances but I believe it's fair for me to say Paladins are not the ultimate class for every aspect of this game. Sure, paladins are quite versatile and got lots of skills that can be exploited but, most of their skills can be readily countered in gvg.

Anyways, at the end of the day, there will always be arguments on how to balance things in pvp itself - that was the point of this discussion right? NOT balancing individual classes/skills. So from what I gather, Time Reverse will be useless in EW+BSQ but will still be active in normal PVP... which means there will always be people exploiting that in pvp. Balancing the mechanism of this game would definitely help too... lag walk/mysterious disappearances/etc.... To be honest, I'm not sure how we could come up with ideas to balance pvp unless we change how pvp works like what Valsu said with a combo-limiter. But any change / every change that is thought up, there will be people who disagree to it and want something else.

Oh ya, I just remembered... doesn't WMs have infinite lock too? Their ice skills are quite awesome at that imo. I don't know how other people+paladins feel but I'm glad they have it, at least I know how it feels to be/get locked. (and yes, it's easy to counter it but still... once u're in it... the wm just needs to time his/her ice skills and you're basically locked for good/quite a long time...)

You must not pvp

[Rimmy]

I'm curious, do you have your own paladin/dragoon? I think it'll be good for everyone to play each class to understand their respective roles in 1v1/gvg. It's not fair for me to say that I understand how every class deals with their own flaws/bugs/imbalances but I believe it's fair for me to say Paladins are not the ultimate class for every aspect of this game. Sure, paladins are quite versatile and got lots of skills that can be exploited but, most of their skills can be readily countered in gvg.

Anyways, at the end of the day, there will always be arguments on how to balance things in pvp itself - that was the point of this discussion right? NOT balancing individual classes/skills. So from what I gather, Time Reverse will be useless in EW+BSQ but will still be active in normal PVP... which means there will always be people exploiting that in pvp. Balancing the mechanism of this game would definitely help too... lag walk/mysterious disappearances/etc.... To be honest, I'm not sure how we could come up with ideas to balance pvp unless we change how pvp works like what Valsu said with a combo-limiter. But any change / every change that is thought up, there will be people who disagree to it and want something else.

Oh ya, I just remembered... doesn't WMs have infinite lock too? Their ice skills are quite awesome at that imo. I don't know how other people+paladins feel but I'm glad they have it, at least I know how it feels to be/get locked. (and yes, it's easy to counter it but still... once u're in it... the wm just needs to time his/her ice skills and you're basically locked for good/quite a long time...)

I don't think what makes paladins cheap is the fact that they can be tough to beat. I think it's the fact that, by their very nature, they can be played by just about anyone and still be the most (or at least one of the most) deadly class(es) in the game regardless of the player's skill level. I think Kazra mentioned something like this earlier.

WMs are great in group PvP, but they usually have a very difficult time catching opponents without assistance. Also, their ice/freezing skills can be made far less effective by stacking Reign of Frost equips.

You must not pvp

Regarding the bit about Time Reverse in EW/BSQ, I think she was referring to the upcoming skill nerf.

[Kazra]

I'm curious, do you have your own paladin/dragoon? I think it'll be good for everyone to play each class to understand their respective roles in 1v1/gvg. It's not fair for me to say that I understand how every class deals with their own flaws/bugs/imbalances but I believe it's fair for me to say Paladins are not the ultimate class for every aspect of this game. Sure, paladins are quite versatile and got lots of skills that can be exploited but, most of their skills can be readily countered in gvg.

Anyways, at the end of the day, there will always be arguments on how to balance things in pvp itself - that was the point of this discussion right? NOT balancing individual classes/skills. So from what I gather, Time Reverse will be useless in EW+BSQ but will still be active in normal PVP... which means there will always be people exploiting that in pvp. Balancing the mechanism of this game would definitely help too... lag walk/mysterious disappearances/etc.... To be honest, I'm not sure how we could come up with ideas to balance pvp unless we change how pvp works like what Valsu said with a combo-limiter. But any change / every change that is thought up, there will be people who disagree to it and want something else.

Oh ya, I just remembered... doesn't WMs have infinite lock too? Their ice skills are quite awesome at that imo. I don't know how other people+paladins feel but I'm glad they have it, at least I know how it feels to be/get locked. (and yes, it's easy to counter it but still... once u're in it... the wm just needs to time his/her ice skills and you're basically locked for good/quite a long time...)

I played a 40 paladin in PvP for a while. Most of the people I PvP'd were high 40s-60. Never felt like I needed crosscut or time reverse. It was the easiest thing ever, so I didn't feel like it was worth it to cap that character. Although they can be countered in group, it takes more than one person. Alot of times someone will try to single out someone on the other team to distract from the overall fight. You better send two, or someone who's way more stacked.

I don't think anyone counts that as a lock anymore. There's just a ridiculous amount of anti-freeze gear, and WMs are usually one of the easiest classes to debuff. That means you'll often see WMs running around with very low aim due to stumble, log, quagmire, etc (if there's no shaman on the team).

Edited by Kazra, 16 April 2011 - 11:52 AM.