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What what what? Super Powered Buffs?


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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:20 PM

Last Friday I made mention of super powered buff scrolls that simulate some of the super items in the game. I did not put much criteria on the items as it was intended to be a thought exercise to spark discussion; on that it succeeded.

http://forums.warppo...es/page__st__25

Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:55 PM I was thinking of a buff item that gives the "power of [item]" for 5 minutes. Like coating a shield in the essence of GTB, or your waist in Magingiorde essence.

Would give players a chance to "sample" such gears before deciding if they really want to invest in trying to acquire them and would lower the absurd price those items now have. At some point the number of 0s don't mean anything, there is nothing the game offers that would soak that much zeny from such a character, it ends up being a bigger burden keeping track that being useful. God items should be sought after due to how it helps you, not in how much you can get for it.


Odd mental exercise, how different would woe be if god item pieces were NOT tradable, IE the guild leader picking up is the only way to make that item happen, they would have to migrate castles to get what they want, but would that be a good thing?


later

It is interesting the different views on things. I personally think a limited acquirement item that gives a temp buff that is "like" ghostring, GTB or god items (or even a lower level instead of +40 str it is +20) to be of use in castle defense/siege I would think it would add an interesting dynamic.

Sort of the way turbo pots are strategic use (or at least used to be). Do you really think that a temp equalizing via a consumable would hurt the permanent always on item? Or is it a feeling of I don't want others to feel as awesome ever as I do all the time when I play? I am not trying to troll here, seriously I am actually very curious on this.

The WoE 1 item thought isn't something I am trying to push, but it is an interesting mental excercise, it would give more "umphh" to WPS tokens for buying god item pieces or pushing defense. The WPS tokens became too much a time killer for us, and it wasn't actually doing what WPS was intended to do. If there aren't fights going on, why should we reward the "win" it became just an extra currency we were giving away rather than a well earned reward like it was intended.

Us monitoring every woe, every castle every server isn't viable, we just don't have the manpower to do it, and then use our observations to reward "effort" and then think that it is "fair" as I know we would miss sometimes. I want to take you all to a neat place where WoE is fun for all classes, items and strategy and practice all come to play in your winning in defense and offense, and I want the rewards of doing it not be something that greatly influences the economy, but instead the combat is its own reward and the items you get are sought after by the guild members to use. Part of the seal quests, and treasure balancing, and class skill patching all play some part in this, but the hurdle that is highest is changing the feelings of long term players from feeling they "deserve" to get everything handed to them via WoE participation and get it to be a I earned what I got because of my efforts and my friends. The 2nd feeling is one that is sustainable indefinitely, players will flock and thrive in such an environment, but I need help from the game leaders, which often is the guild leaders.


Now I've had a number of conversations with players through MSN about this subject and I'm sure many more polite discussions are in my PM box as well. One thing I've seen in common is a sense of panic and WTH. When we discussed much of their concerns did stem from how it would impact themselves and what they do in the game. I put no restrictions on this thought excercise, and for good reason, I wanted player interpretation of what is important to them.

So now with a bit more clarification, on what all would at least need to be considered before anything like this would take place.

  • Very short duration buff. The more effect it has or more location on where it could be used would further shorten the buff.
  • If it is a powerful buff it would have a reuse timer on it
  • Very likely the item would NOT give the effect of what it is named after. For instance a GTB essence wouldn't give magic immunity, instead it would be a hightened Mdef for instance.
  • Method of acquiring can't be discussed as frankly it is an idea not a reality.
What also surprised me is more concern about MVP stability was brought up than WoE scenarios, which makes sense, players figured out how to deal with GTB in WoE, but the MVPs kinda curl up in a ball and ask the MVPer to be "gentle and make it quick" which would be a problem with such things as a GTB scroll, even if it only worked for like 10 seconds. It raises the question of should GTB have lost its immunity in renewal (like our early 2009 dev notes mentioned) and become a super mdef instead. I think with hindsight the easiest MVP in the game likely wouldn't drop something that changes game play 7 years later.

So let me add a few logs to our peaceful campfire.

  • Test server, we do intend to have it for USRC practicing, and if things go well to do more guild tournaments (perhaps for WPS points?)
  • Setting up events/scenarios where you get empowered by the gods to do epic things like (perhaps these scrolls when used for you by NPCs) slam into a boss of a map to complete a quest.
  • Allowing players to just "test" on sakray doesn't make much long term sense, as it is a limited service that frankly could lessen the longevity of the game if you get to skip everything just to get to specific crunchy bits and get bored of it. But PVP is a different story.
  • Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something.
Please be sure you read and understand the parts in red, before you reply. Most of the replys with the negativity seem to have not actually read the post.
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#2 ExDarkrb

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:52 PM

Yay! You re great Heim! I know you and the devs are working hard to make iRO wonderful! All complainers give good feedback but pay less attention to the offense ok? Good job!



First post!
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#3 Afrikan

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:53 PM

GTB is no where near as overpowered as it was in pre-renewal.
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#4 Akin

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:58 PM

I'll copy my reply from the other thread:

Heim, a lot of things you suggest as off the cuff ideas and hypotheticals, have a bad habit of showing up in game down the road. If you do make scrolls like this, please:

Block them in WoE/PvP and allow them in only in PvM for exactly the reasons people mentioned. At least then people might say: "Wow, if only I could be this strong in WoE and all the time for free in PvM without being nickle and dimed. I'm gonna go participate in WoE or start hunting MvPs so I can try and earn these items."

or

Make use of Nightmare PvP mode and allow players to go in there, purchase god items and mvp cards from an npc, and then go fight till their hearts content. Let them respawn inside the staging room, and then when they choose to leave, all items purchased are taken away.


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#5 Freedom

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:12 PM

I dont like this idea of these kinda of buff scrolls. having never help or used a gtb carded equips it does nto bother me. Would I like one, hmm.. maybe. All this will do is make the best players even stronger. How ever if you put a lvl cap on these, then I would give my OK on them. take the GTB scroll, have it work the same way the card would but have it set for people under 110, reuse timer of 5 min and only last for 1 min or even half a min. this is to stop people from abusing it and let the people just have a taste.
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#6 Myzery

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:26 PM

Last Friday I made mention of super powered buff scrolls that simulate some of the super items in the game. I did not put much criteria on the items as it was intended to be a thought exercise to spark discussion; on that it succeeded.

http://forums.warppo...es/page__st__25


later


Now I've had a number of conversations with players through MSN about this subject and I'm sure many more polite discussions are in my PM box as well. One thing I've seen in common is a sense of panic and WTH. When we discussed much of their concerns did stem from how it would impact themselves and what they do in the game. I put no restrictions on this thought excercise, and for good reason, I wanted player interpretation of what is important to them.

So now with a bit more clarification.

  • Very short duration buff. The more effect it has or more location on where it could be used would further shorten the buff.
  • If it is a powerful buff it would have a reuse timer on it
  • Very likely the item would NOT give the effect of what it is named after. For instance a GTB essence wouldn't give magic immunity, instead it would be a hightened Mdef for instance.
  • Method of acquiring can't be discussed as frankly it is an idea not a reality.
What also surprised me is more concern about MVP stability was brought up than WoE scenarios, which makes sense, players figured out how to deal with GTB in WoE, but the MVPs kinda curl up in a ball and ask the MVPer to be "gentle and make it quick" which would be a problem with such things as a GTB scroll, even if it only worked for like 10 seconds. It raises the question of should GTB have lost its immunity in renewal (like our early 2009 dev notes mentioned) and become a super mdef instead. I think with hindsight the easiest MVP in the game likely wouldn't drop something that changes game play 7 years later.

So let me add a few logs to our peaceful campfire.

  • Test server, we do intend to have it for USRC practicing, and if things go well to do more guild tournaments (perhaps for WPS points?)
  • Setting up events/scenarios where you get empowered by the gods to do epic things like (perhaps these scrolls when used for you by NPCs) slam into a boss of a map to complete a quest.
  • Allowing players to just "test" on sakray doesn't make much long term sense, as it is a limited service that frankly could lessen the longevity of the game if you get to skip everything just to get to specific crunchy bits and get bored of it. But PVP is a different story.
  • Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something.


This is very, very dumb. I don't see why you insist on trying to ruin this game. The players know what's good and know what they want.
With all due respect, you usually don't even know what people are talking about when they have a direct issue with something in game.
I feel that this will turn a lot of people off and even if it's on a small scale, it'll ruin lots of stuff.

Maybe if you could tell us what you're hoping to accomplish here, it would be better, but right now it looks as if you want to ruin the game for new players and veterans alike.
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#7 Susan

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:35 PM

I'm probably not the only one who smelled a future "pay2win" option and was disgusted :blink:
but what's the point of such a scroll if not boosting the dollars you gain?

I don't know if a scroll like that would influence MVPing that much. You can already solo every single mvp ingame, it's even easier with 1 or 2 partymembers or god items.
And in woe, people just use GTB and i thought the way it is is okay. Not like everybody has a GTB, and it "only" blocks magic.

The only use i would see is for people who already own a different-than-GTB-God item and it stacks with it to make it even more OP.


ps:
I would much rather see an update to make it worth partying again.
Like a hat/quest/scroll/event/whatever (NOT KAFRA SHOP) that adds Exp depending on your party members (best at 3-4 people party ->100% for everybody, so no loss).
Nowadays, the only time people interact with others during leveling is through guild chat, with others who solo as well. This sucks.


Hell, if you think about it, such a GTB-Scroll would encourage people to soloing even more again. I didn't read out that it can only be used with a party/certain classes or anything!
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#8 Sapphic

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:09 PM

It's a bad idea period. The user response is also pretty negative. You guys should drop the idea and work on other things to maybe make the game more enjoyable rather than breaking it entirely.
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#9 heyxsean

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:30 PM

GTB + Cranial kay?
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#10 Fureedo

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:56 PM

"Setting up events/scenarios where you get empowered by the gods to do epic things like (perhaps these scrolls when used for you by NPCs) slam into a boss of a map to complete a quest."
"Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something."

Me Gusta

seriously, that is awesome. Gang up with friend, whatever the level, to go on an epic event and get an awesome reward? Epic.
Not in the kafra shop? Epic-er

That would give a second life to the game. Players would do these quest things like people do raids in WoW. Really, that sounds awesome.

Why can't people read:
"Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something."
NOT EVER CONSIDERED A VIABLE KAFRA SHOP ITEM, geez, learn to read =(

Edited by Fureedo, 19 April 2011 - 05:23 PM.

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#11 Pooru

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 05:13 PM

rental god items? /no
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#12 ExDarkrb

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:25 PM

You can already solo every single MVP well.

would like to see you try valk rand or ifrit or the bios bosses! Think before making sweeping statements. Paying for more power is common in every game cause they are all for commericial purposes! The server you are playing in doesn't come for free, you are imposing on the server as a free player and yet you are complaining.
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#13 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:34 PM

It is an interesting idea, but I think development time would be better suited to fixing existing bugs and problems first, such as correcting Bowling Bash's gutter lines, Mechanic's Cooldown skill, Vanilmirth's Instruction Change and so on so forth.

In relation to god item buffs...I already shy away from using temporary buffs wherever possible. It just doesn't sit right with me to know I'm on a time limit all the time, so I would get very little use over something like this unless it could be sold to other players for substantial profit, in which case I'd definately consider going to go hunt some of those scrolls. I like the idea of them being weaker than the original cards too.

The thing is, it's already really hard to MVP. I just got my charater to lv 130 and was excited to start MVPing on the lower level bosses...only to find out that it's practically impossible due to the huge number of Genetics and RK's camping their spot like hawks. I literally have been unable to solo anything other than Phreeoni and Amon Ra.
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#14 Viri

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:34 PM

People don't wear GTB to reduce magic damage most of the time because magic does garbage damage. They wear it to resist manhole/white imprison/dispel/etc. If it gave 10000000 mdef it'd still be borderline useless lol
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#15 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:36 PM

Right. and Please don't make these scrolls resist manhole/white imprison/dispel/etc. because that would really ruin a lot of classes use in WoE period. I always felt that GTB card and Maya Purple were very obnoxious cards. They completely shut down the usefulness of magic classes and thief classes in just one card.
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#16 Kadnya

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:40 PM

Before anyone else keeps thinking that this is a kafrashop idea, maybe mr Heim should have used something like this, for those who don't read full posts:

Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something.Please be sure you read and understand the parts in red, before you reply. Most of the replys with the negativity seem to have not actually read the post.


I really lke the idea of this. Seeing the GM team has the ability to restrict where and when these items produce their effects (for example, look at the stones in the warlock test: they do not cast the skills anywhere else than the test room), I feel this would be a fun addition. As heim mentioned, they could be used during the part where you are warped into a quest map, so no problem with messing woe. Or they could just limit the maximum number of scrolls you can carry. Even if they give like 300 str for a minute, there is no real problem if they can only be used in regular maps without mvps, for example. Plus we get some extra quests~

Edited by Kadnya, 19 April 2011 - 06:44 PM.

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#17 ItalianChild

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:00 PM

ill be honest. i have dealt out a bit of complaining against the GMs and stuff. But i do also realize that it seems they stepped up their game since the renewal. I appreciate it.
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#18 Himeyasha

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:04 PM

If you go forward with this, the items should act for a very short time but with a significant timeout. so 20-30 seconds of xyz effect 5-10 minutes timeout.

Could offer it as rewards for guilds that hold econ on WoE1 forts (50+ econ or something) or holding a specific castle.

As an old and bitter ex-player, I find it hard to ever believe "scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item" when it sounds like a money mine.
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#19 iCandy

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:19 PM

im all for it if the items comes from a not-so-easy-to-do quests so that it wont be abusable. it would even encourage team work.
and yes, DO NOT put these in kafra shops.


I am thinking of:

1 Arena + 3 bio3 MVPs (like in okolnir) that drops items + 12 players max = 1 sample god item

Edited by iCandy, 19 April 2011 - 07:27 PM.

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#20 blitzrick

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:22 PM

So let me add a few logs to our peaceful campfire.

  • Test server, we do intend to have it for USRC practicing, and if things go well to do more guild tournaments (perhaps for WPS points?)
  • Setting up events/scenarios where you get empowered by the gods to do epic things like (perhaps these scrolls when used for you by NPCs) slam into a boss of a map to complete a quest.
  • Allowing players to just "test" on sakray doesn't make much long term sense, as it is a limited service that frankly could lessen the longevity of the game if you get to skip everything just to get to specific crunchy bits and get bored of it. But PVP is a different story.
  • Scrolls like this were not ever considered a viable "sale in the kafra shop" item, they would by design be restricted to events or winnings or something.

Scroll is one time use and not memorable.
Instead of creating a questionable new stuff why don't you make KVM weapon more prestige? The weapon is char bound and everyone know how good it is.
For a start, USRC 1st place members get a named +14 KVM weapon of choice instead of lame Party Hard Pack.
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#21 Beata

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:56 PM

Even though I am not supporting the idea... If you allow such buffs, make them through NPCs. Put the NPCs in special grounds to perform certain quests/events as you mentioned. Also, make the buffs expire if the player logged out or got recalled outside the special grounds of course.

Those buffs should never ever be open publicly imo nor sold through Kafra shop, period.
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#22 iCare

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

Geez, another way to feel how unbalance the classes are...
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#23 Sapphic

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:23 PM

would like to see you try valk rand or ifrit or the bios bosses! Think before making sweeping statements. Paying for more power is common in every game cause they are all for commericial purposes! The server you are playing in doesn't come for free, you are imposing on the server as a free player and yet you are complaining.

Valk is soloed though :S

Hell, Ifrit is probably soloable too.

I actually liked the Bio MVP cause it was fun to do in a party. Too bad the drops suck and it's pretty much impossible now.
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#24 IronFist

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:45 PM

Making the strong stronger and the weak weaker, woe is hard enough when ur class dies alot, compared to a sura who might die a few times a woe, they already have a +30stat bonus.

if you decided to put these in, allow everyone the equal opportunity to get them.
a +40 str meg 1min scroll shouldn't stack with megs, your basically buying a meg for 1 min.
hell it adds another dynamic to the game. i jst dont think ragnarok needs it.
p.s. all the players on your msn = greedy high ranked players
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#25 Hrishi

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 01:44 AM

would like to see you try valk rand or ifrit or the bios bosses! Think before making sweeping statements. Paying for more power is common in every game cause they are all for commericial purposes! The server you are playing in doesn't come for free, you are imposing on the server as a free player and yet you are complaining.


I'm not sure where you have been or what server you play but all MvPs other than the bio bosses are soloed on Ymir.
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