86 replies to this topic

[Akin]

Since the topic seems to have steered into a "kafra shop" direction rather than just the idea of buff scrolls in general, lets derail and talk about the kafra shop.

What CONSUMABLE reusable types of buffs are of interest to you? Things I'm not talking about are things like, perma buffs (weight up scrolls), hats of anykind, pets, clothing dye, upgrade items, or equipment.

I am interested in getting feadback on what types of buffs are even interesting, I know renewal changed the physics of Midgard a lot, and many buffs like blessings, foods etc were relegated to less powerful than before, so what types of things are now of interest since straight up stat increases aren't really that powerful of an effect?

And yes I'll be honest, I will be seeing what we can do with the likes to improve the kafra shop so it is useful to more players, while still not giving uber upgrades that bend the game over backwards.

The perma buff stuff are a different subject entirely and many of the things in there are under work orders already.

I'd say % buffs are the way to go for consumables.

Things like X% attack/MATK for X minutes, or X% more HP for X minutes. A lot of MvPs have really high flee so +X hit scrolls (similar to the food and rations that do the same thing) could be cool, in addition to +X flee scrolls (the kafra shop already has crit and p. dodge scrolls). Percent increases in healing could really be helpful, as could scrolls that reduce fixed or variable cast time by X% for X minutes.

Other ideas could be x% more damage to X element/size/race for X minutes, or since a lot of 3rd class skills improve based on the number of people, or certain classes, in a party (especially the new AB buffs coming), how about an item that lets those skills reach max potential even without those people (could be like Myst Amp scrolls).

Those small and big defense potions in the shop are based on this idea already but are far too weak with the current defense formula in Renewal. They should probably be more like 3% and 6% reductions in physical damage, respectively.

Maybe scrolls that prevent sitting or certain status ailments for 3 minutes, or simply cards that reduce status durations by X%. Scrolls that give Endure effect and can replace Anodyne.

Bottom line, however, is that these new items shouldn't be comparable to God Items or MvP cards, and even more importantly, the X's should be replaced with reasonable numbers that give the purchaser a boost in performance, but don't make them so strong that there is no way to compete with them other than by buying the same scrolls.

One item in the kafra shop right now that I love is the medium life potion (though I really hate that it's better than ABs Renovatio, and Performer's Circle of Nature). A similar SP item would be great.

I also like the idea of resetting TKM blessings/targets/etc. I'd hold off on linker buffs till after they announce skills and level cap for the next linker upgrade.

Edited by Akin, 21 April 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[Trixdee]

I like your ideas Akin I agree about those defense pots and that's why I never bought them.

[BlackPotato]

buffs that increase resistance to easily spammed skills, like cc and deep sleep. or put a cool down on those to not perma-disable people (manhole)

[Kadelia]

Deep sleep is going to be easy to remove soon... Arch Bishop will have a party area support buff that removes deep sleep. Doesn't really bode well of course for the usefulness of performers...

[Daray]

The question is, who will we be able to trick into playing an AB.

[DeltaRay]

God item buffs are already implemented in game you say you want a small version of the buff so roughly about half I assume....want half a meg?buy +20 str food, want half a hammer buy +20dex food, want a bris buy all +10 foods and you have a more powerful bris, as for sleipnir buy 20 int food.Really why do you insist on this you want ppl to get a taste of the real god item before you buy it the foods themselves give you a taste of those this is only gonna ruin the game.
Just got an Idea why dont you put those scroll things as rewards for the seal rolls and a large chunk of exp that way ppl do them

Edited by DeltaRay, 21 April 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Akin]

Deep sleep is going to be easy to remove soon... Arch Bishop will have a party area support buff that removes deep sleep. Doesn't really bode well of course for the usefulness of performers...

That reminds me...none of the suggestions I gave before or any of the things that might be put into the kafra shop that I didn't mention, should never replace a job class. Scrolls that would block a player's skills in PvP/WoE or make it so parties would never need a certain class, should not be made available. I know that's hard for Priests because they are the one full support class, but in that case, please try to make sure that actual buffs given by priests are in some way better than kafra shop items (i.e. lower the duration of scroll bless versus acolyte bless or make them +8).

[Trini]

I can't read this whole thread but i read a bit and I think I agree with the ones who say we don't need more buff stuff. We have all that we need to get to 150 and we have all that we need to counter other classes. All that needs update are a few systems/ideas. I understand the Thread Topic is about the consumable but I don't think these Scrolls or Buffs or whatever they will be will increase the game life or the enjoyment.


To make the game more enjoyable, I think the best idea is to look at each class again from the start, (ie, all the first set of 1st and 2nd classes) and then see how their counterparts like Crusader, Rogue, Sorcerer, etc were intended to compliment them and focus the third classes toward meeting those initial focus points. That should be best guide to balancing classes themselves. I think everyone already has fun in the current renewal system, people will complain about Overpowered skills forever no matter how many changes you make. Still, there is no character that never dies in WoE when faced by a good opponent (Guild/small team).


My point in this post is simply to express my thought that buff scrolls will only add something which game freaks and generally talented players will have to add to become more overpowered which will only add to your complaints. If interesting in pleasing the community, my suggestion is to run a few basic polls for votes as you see that was very effective for actual decision making with the Yggdrasil, Phoenix, Asgard, and so on, suggested names for the new server. Look at the forums now, no complaints about the name cuz all can see clearly what the community's choice was. These polls need to address things like, Party System, Drop System (Make Castle an MvP instead of normal monster btw), SIMPLE Event Ideas (For Example, Upgrade event or PvP Event or WoE Event. Rewarding the ones lucky enough to get high upgrades. Rewarding a few top ranked PvP teams and a general consolation prize to participants. Rewarding 1~4 Guilds for successfully holding (a) particular castle(s) NB: Disallow one guild from holding two of the reward castles in the rules).


Upgrade Events will simply have less people complaining about +9 KvM items because then all will be able to anticipate these events and save up for it and get the gear they need, like KvM Fist or KvM Katar or Valk amnt or whatever.


Party system doesn't need extreme thing but, simply adding 20% for every additional member should work and you can keep testing and changing this till you find the sweet spot (like Kaahi testing on RG Reflecting) so for example it can be, 120% (60% pre member on the map) for a party of 2, 140% (46% per member on the map) for a party of 3, and so on having to take hits and have exp tap is a bit hard and makes party less rewarding. Maybe this system also doesn't work but simply playing with thee % and way it works should give a good result after some time. {(!IDEA!) Have events (1 to 2 week duration) to test this}.


These are things that I think make the game more fun and inspire people to use whatever the current system is, in order to have more fun at the times of these events. Scrolls just don't seem to add anything at all, except more players complaining about how OP another class is, when in reality they are just going up against a man with insane buffs on which they can't even dream to afford.


Please let me know what you think of these Ideas, I really think they make sense so i would like to get feedback from the community and the GM team. Thank you for reading.

[Rutana]

Soul Linker Scrolls would be awesome!
The personal Link (a ka Class-Links) as well as buffs like Kaite. Allthough the Ka-Magic could be a bit to strong maybe?

[jax5]

Regarding super powered buff scrolls:

I think they do have the potential to make PvP/WoE more dynamic (more variables->more permutations). For them to be strategic, rarity or limited usage would be essential. To indirectly contribute to other game play, acquisition would probably need to be a result of some regular, involved process.

There are also some possible negative consequences of their addition.

Example: KvM badges in lucky boxes
KvM items are powerful in PvP/WoE; lucky box badge distribution does allow for rapid, new-player catch-up. They are easy to get, but not cheap.

A consequence is that there is (was?) a population that enjoy fighting in the battlegrounds, but cannot do so because there aren't others to play with. The lack of a BG queue system doesn't help this either, along with KvM weapons being superior to BG ones.

The consequence is that people play less and pay more.

Back to super buff scrolls... If there did exist scrolls that gave essenses of meginjard, GTB, Ghostring, etc., and their effects were fairly similar to the real thing (regardless of whether they cost $$), then what reason would guilds have to spend all that time and effort in trying to get the real things?

On a macro-scopic scale, the existance of long-term, meaningful, not-yet-reached goals is important to game longevity and keeping players around. Why would one guild compete with another for a meginjard-piece castle when the meg set is just going to rot in storage and meginjard scrolls can be obtained instead?

The most significant differences I see between PvP and WoE, is that the latter is much more objective based and also has a greater number of participants. There is a population that enjoys this objective-based fighting, and another population that might enjoy any large-scale fighting (for plain love of the sport). If the first population drops, the second population will likely also (due to there being less people around to fight). There are already few enough (meaningful) long-term objectives in game as is.

A suggestion for future implementations: Be more flirtatious. There is plenty of feedback on *what* people want, but giving it immediately, only results in a temporary satiation, with a resultant loss in power of now being unable to give what was just given. Once what people want is discovered, provide a path (or three) such that they can continually get closer to what they want, but not teleported to instant gratification. That yearning and striving, that progression toward goals and desires, is what an MMORPG is about (imo).

Edited by jax5, 21 April 2011 - 03:12 PM.

[Trini]

Regarding super powered buff scrolls:

I think they do have the potential to make PvP/WoE more dynamic (more variables->more permutations). For them to be strategic, rarity or limited usage would be essential. To indirectly contribute to other game play, acquisition would probably need to be a result of some regular, involved process.

There are also some possible negative consequences of their addition.

Example: KvM badges in lucky boxes
KvM items are powerful in PvP/WoE; lucky box badge distribution does allow for rapid, new-player catch-up. They are easy to get, but not cheap.

A consequence is that there is (was?) a population that enjoy fighting in the battlegrounds, but cannot do so because there aren't others to play with. The lack of a BG queue system doesn't help this either, along with KvM weapons being superior to BG ones.

The consequence is that people play less and pay more.

Back to super buff scrolls... If there did exist scrolls that gave essenses of meginjard, GTB, Ghostring, etc., and their effects were fairly similar to the real thing (regardless of whether they cost $$), then what reason would guilds have to spend all that time and effort in trying to get the real things?

On a macro-scopic scale, the existance of long-term, meaningful, not-yet-reached goals is important to game longevity and keeping players around. Why would one guild compete with another for a meginjard-piece castle when the meg set is just going to rot in storage and meginjard scrolls can be obtained instead?

The most significant differences I see between PvP and WoE, is that the latter is much more objective based and also has a greater number of participants. There is a population that enjoys this objective-based fighting, and another population that might enjoy any large-scale fighting (for plain love of the sport). If the first population drops, the second population will likely also (due to there being less people around to fight). There are already few enough (meaningful) long-term objectives in game as is.

A suggestion for future implementations: Be more flirtatious. There is plenty of feedback on *what* people want, but giving it immediately, only results in a temporary satiation, with a resultant loss in power of now being unable to give what was just given. Once what people want is discovered, provide a path (or three) such that they can continually get closer to what they want, but not teleported to instant gratification. That yearning and striving, that progression toward goals and desires, is what an MMORPG is about (imo).

I RATE THIS POST!!! PLEASE DON'T ADD INSANE POWER SO EASY.

Instead maybe make a card which drop the box like Box of sunlight for angel monsters killed by low percentage. And PLEASE don't make it effects like GTB and Megs, etc.

Instead you should probably think of MORE long term goals to the game like these Superior and Exclusive items. Perhaps a Hall of Fame dungeon that can only facilitate the top 5 guilds ranked on the server. These ratings can be reset like alchemist/forger points. Don't need new monsters for these maps, perhaps just a unique combination will be nice. For example, 20~40 Bloody Knight, 20~40 Cobolt Mineral, 5 Maya Purple (2 with instant to 5 minutes spawn, 3 with 2 minutes to 20 minutes spawn), 100 Mavka (Personal Opinion, for Zeny earned from NPC profitable items, like Crystal Mirror and Witherless Rose), 1 Valkyrie (not MvP) 5 minute spawn, 1 Naught Sieger (Or other Strong profitable MvP) 12~24 hour spawn, and finally some 20~60 Easy to kill Angel monster. This Hall of Fame ranking will not be based on guild simply with most points. It would require a certain amount of points to qualify (reducing how long it is available for) AND after you get to that many points, you will be worked into the ranking so if there are more than 5 guilds with, say 500~1000 Points, it is ONLY in THAT case that the ranking system will be implemented. So if only 3 guilds can manage to make 100 points, it means there are only 3 hall of famers. Points can be offered for all sorts of tasks, to level the playing field a bit and force bigger guilds to actually compete with smaller guilds for smaller merits such as breaking a castle and holding castles for certain durations in WoE. For example (Every 10 minutes without break = 2 points, Every castle Held = 10 Points, Every Castle broken = 1 Point) This sort of thing should cause guilds to fight more for what they want. The idea is to have a place where the very top guilds are provided with resources to ensure that their members are always well supplied so they very seldom go wanting for Zeny. This is just to have as a target to encourage guilds to work the system and provide a ranking that guilds can see where they stand on the server IN GAME on a Board or a tombstone or some public thing like the Sign for the Seals Quests.

Edited by Trini, 21 April 2011 - 03:47 PM.

[Wizard]

what about a de-buff scroll that nullified the effects of certain MvP's on screen when it's used... that would be more fun to have/use...

[Trini]

Oh! oh! I have an idea, as long as we are making people overpowered, can we have anti-dispell scroll for 4 minute duration and Anti-(BodyPaint/Divest/Breakage of Gear+Mount) for same duration?

Make my RG ROAR!!!! Even MORE!!!!!

Edited by Trini, 21 April 2011 - 04:12 PM.

[Viri]

Inspirati... oh i see what you did there

[DeltaRay]

Inspirati... oh i see what you did there

I dun get it ,do tell viri r u saying Inspiration is OP?

[Hrothmund]

Soul linker and endow buffs, because nobody plays those classes in a normal way anyway X_X

all for this option, although we can make endow scrolls already. The soul links certainly though, I have an account that is basically just married to my main account(1:1) for kaahi etc. Striking scrolls would be another one

I'm actually somewhat against the party buff scrolls (individual are fine) for bless/agi/KE etc, AB's *should* be included in parties.

Edited by Hrothmund, 24 April 2011 - 12:45 AM.

[Zeenn]

Id offer to solve the problem making woe viable for everyone is to reset woe back to its pre renewal state where the emp took actual damage instead of just 1's. This easily kills your wps stuff. People cant break emps anymore. Guilds are just too dominant. People rush a heavily defended castle half getting killed off leaving only a few more if they even break through a defense. One person alone wouldnt be able to break an emp if he was the only one that even got out of the defending guilds defense. If people would be able to break faster then this wps reward would be easily solved. If all the power house guilds band together on a server No other guild can even possibly stop castle holdings. Free wps as you said. If the possibility of a revert of woe where the emp is actually easily breakable once again. Then it gives other guilds a chance to actually win a fort.

The scrolls are just a bonus to all this. I feel they would be quite helpful in woe considering the balance of class powers. This "GTB Scroll" with heighten mdef would serve greatly considering you have one less thing to worry about when getting struck with it in woe. Might as well add an "Doppelganger scroll" as well for heighten attack speed but not max attack speed. Have it proc 2-3 difference or something depending on the players stats level and class.

On another note. If GTB was such a great card. Why not decrease the spawn of gtb by a few hours instead of an hour spawn make him an 4hour spawn. Heighten his health and increase his damage. Make him worth the kill for the card. Like the other mvp cards.

[Kadelia]

Id offer to solve the problem making woe viable for everyone Enchant Deadly Poison and Frenzy users is to reset woe back to its pre renewal state where the emp took actual damage instead of just 1's.

Fixed.

[Zeenn]

Fixed.

Frenzy is hardly worth the time now unless you are just agi built. No 190 attack speed but. Might as well. Its better then -_-ting around having top guilds dominate the server. Least then it makes it more fun. Now its all. Oh well even if this small guild gets past us. We're gonna watch him try and break and just lols never worry about the emp. But changing it back Its like. Oh well we gotta worry now or we going to lose this castle. People have become LAZY in woe. Now its not even about getting castles. all it really is; is pvp. If I wanted to pvp I would just to in and do BG or I would go to pvp itself and do that.

[iCandy]

I RATE THIS POST!!! PLEASE DON'T ADD INSANE POWER SO EASY.

Instead maybe make a card which drop the box like Box of sunlight for angel monsters killed by low percentage. And PLEASE don't make it effects like GTB and Megs, etc.

Instead you should probably think of MORE long term goals to the game like these Superior and Exclusive items. Perhaps a Hall of Fame dungeon that can only facilitate the top 5 guilds ranked on the server. These ratings can be reset like alchemist/forger points. Don't need new monsters for these maps, perhaps just a unique combination will be nice. For example, 20~40 Bloody Knight, 20~40 Cobolt Mineral, 5 Maya Purple (2 with instant to 5 minutes spawn, 3 with 2 minutes to 20 minutes spawn), 100 Mavka (Personal Opinion, for Zeny earned from NPC profitable items, like Crystal Mirror and Witherless Rose), 1 Valkyrie (not MvP) 5 minute spawn, 1 Naught Sieger (Or other Strong profitable MvP) 12~24 hour spawn, and finally some 20~60 Easy to kill Angel monster. This Hall of Fame ranking will not be based on guild simply with most points. It would require a certain amount of points to qualify (reducing how long it is available for) AND after you get to that many points, you will be worked into the ranking so if there are more than 5 guilds with, say 500~1000 Points, it is ONLY in THAT case that the ranking system will be implemented. So if only 3 guilds can manage to make 100 points, it means there are only 3 hall of famers. Points can be offered for all sorts of tasks, to level the playing field a bit and force bigger guilds to actually compete with smaller guilds for smaller merits such as breaking a castle and holding castles for certain durations in WoE. For example (Every 10 minutes without break = 2 points, Every castle Held = 10 Points, Every Castle broken = 1 Point) This sort of thing should cause guilds to fight more for what they want. The idea is to have a place where the very top guilds are provided with resources to ensure that their members are always well supplied so they very seldom go wanting for Zeny. This is just to have as a target to encourage guilds to work the system and provide a ranking that guilds can see where they stand on the server IN GAME on a Board or a tombstone or some public thing like the Sign for the Seals Quests.

Yes to GD revamp!

[Heimdallr]

Thank you for your feedback.

We do need to monetize the game so we can stay in business but a bigger goal than a temp "sale of awesome" is to create a long term stable system with more users staying longer and inviting more players to join in. But I can not lose sight of the fact that at some point revenue must be made, just made fairly is the key, giving new stuff that players want is great, but also finding the stuff that players don't realize they want yet and offering that is also great.

[lester]

Id offer to solve the problem making woe viable for everyone is to reset woe back to its pre renewal state where the emp took actual damage instead of just 1's. This easily kills your wps stuff. People cant break emps anymore. Guilds are just too dominant. People rush a heavily defended castle half getting killed off leaving only a few more if they even break through a defense. One person alone wouldnt be able to break an emp if he was the only one that even got out of the defending guilds defense. If people would be able to break faster then this wps reward would be easily solved. If all the power house guilds band together on a server No other guild can even possibly stop castle holdings. Free wps as you said. If the possibility of a revert of woe where the emp is actually easily breakable once again. Then it gives other guilds a chance to actually win a fort.

how about woe1 emp gets plants def and woe2 emp got pre renewal?

[AtlasThunderbeef]

I like the idea of the emp taking damage again, instead of 1's.

How about upping the health of the emp to 300k or maybe 500k? Given the amount of damage 150's can dish out and most third classes it's not too much. Maybe a mil hp would be just right.

[Hrothmund]

eh I thought the idea of emp taking 1's was a nice twist, it shouldnt die in <5 seconds which it will if its plant def gets removed. These are castle seiges, not capture the flag matches. Pre-renewal the emp would break if someone glared at it menacingly.

It'd need something like 10-20m HP if it had its def reverted to pre-renewal state.

Edited by Hrothmund, 27 April 2011 - 02:36 AM.

[Xellie]

old emp mechanics would have me woeing again for sure (more hp maybe)