437 replies to this topic

[Marloe]

Alright, you want to get into that? Let us get into that.

The reason I don't feel like recommending it to be changed back to a damage skill is because both sound and reverb were NERFED. BY the kRO devs. WHEN they were first implemented. You need evidence?

Figure 1: the original playtesting of Metallic Sound http://forums.irowik...25&postcount=95
Figure 2: original formula theory http://forums.irowik...6&postcount=415
Figure 3: original compilation of 3rd performer skills and info http://forums.irowik...3&postcount=397
note that reverb doesn't have "damage splitting" in its skill description, at this time it was true aoe.
(sorry i couldn't find a post dicussing reverb pre-skill-balance in too much detail)

Figure 4: the skill balancing patch adds reverb split damage http://forums.irowik...2&postcount=483
Figure 5: tester summing up the Metallic Sound changes post patch http://forums.irowik...9&postcount=471

What's most interesting about this is the posts by a kRO "tester" by the name of Jayed. If that IS you, you were testing these at or before I was (yeah I eventually convinced Doddler to lend me his kRO account post the sweeping nerfs). However, I can't find you providing first-hand information on any skills other than Arrow Vulcan and Arrow Shower. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough (I didn't post much myself as it was some months after the nerfs that Dodd gave me a crack at his minstrel on kRO). If this is a case of mistaken identity, then yeah I'm sorry I assumed you knew about this - posting in the thread did make me think you read it.

If you want the upshot on this - I just don't feel like "bring back the old Metallic/Reverb" is a debate the kRO devs want to get into. Or that Heim wants to get into, according to this http://forums.warppo...706#entry442706 From what Heim says about giving them iRO feedback I'd much rather they had the single point: "make choruses stack on other effects" than a double point "make choruses stack on other effects and change back metallic/reverb"
Rather, they really never got a lot of feedback on chorus skills (no one had enough points to really test) so THOSE skills in particular passed them by. I can think of other reasons to give chorus skill balancing precedence over Metallic and Reverb, namely
1: M/W is a support class - focus on its buffing ability, please.
2: Chorus Skills weren't heavily tested before W/M was "balanced" - it's actually LIKELY that choruses not stacking with other effects is an oversight. Seems kind of unlikely they would design the cooldowns choruses do have if they were so easy to remove.

My question is, "why did I need to go digging through the forums to find this stuff?" If you ARE Jayed, you know this. You could respect that maybe *I* know this, too. As for Damage archbishop being a valid tree - go ask one about their "meaningful combat tree." I haven't met one and I don't play one, so the short of it is I DON'T CARE. Stay on point.

These changes aren't forcing W/M into a chorus build by a longshot. Most of the choruses are STILL more or less mediocre - and damage oriented players can still go for great echo (which receives a buff this patch) and would benefit greatly if there was still a reason to have performer parties in WoE. Solos couldn't be used by such a party, and Swing Dance will likely become the solo of choice - meaning every breaking and offense party would be incomplete without a Wandy giving it to them. If you're saying I not only prefer a support role to this class but a design bias for a support role, guilty as charged. I don't WANT W/M to be good at killing people, or locking them down longer that it takes to get by them/get them killed. I want W/M to be BETTER at support than the classes that CAN kill.

Edited by Marloe, 08 July 2011 - 05:16 AM.

[Kadelia]

Alright, you want to get into that? Let us get into that.

The reason I don't feel like recommending it to be changed back to a damage skill is because both sound and reverb were NERFED. BY the kRO devs. WHEN they were first implemented. You need evidence?

Figure 1: the original playtesting of Metallic Sound http://forums.irowik...25&postcount=95
Figure 2: original formula theory http://forums.irowik...6&postcount=415
Figure 3: original compilation of 3rd performer skills and info http://forums.irowik...3&postcount=397
note that reverb doesn't have "damage splitting" in its skill description, at this time it was true aoe.
(sorry i couldn't find a post dicussing reverb pre-skill-balance in too much detail)

Let me get this straight; It did 500% damge as SP- Got nerfed to 10% damage as SP-- And you do not consider that an over-nerf? It does 1/50th what it used to. It could stand to be ~25% SP drain, or instead leave it at ~10% and double the base damage of the skill so the resulting SP drain is double. Not only is it 1/50th its old SP draining potential, the delay is 5 times longer.

Please state your case why you think the skill should remain nerfed so bad that it is unusable instead of re-tweaked to an appropriate strength instead of vastly overpowered or vastly underpowered.

Re: testing kRO - I tested some stuff on kRO with an account shared to me by Xellie, but I don't know if you're looking at the same person. I mostly tested dancer/gypsy on KR with quite disappointing results.

You can read this thread: http://forums.warppo...__1#entry169869 . There is a lot of suggestions for tweaks to choruses.


Please review the changes in April 13th patch. http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=76535
Clearly they were aware the choruses needed tweaking. They underbuff things that need buff. Overnerf things that need nerf. This is Gravity's M.O.

2: Chorus Skills weren't heavily tested before W/M was "balanced" - it's actually LIKELY that choruses not stacking with other effects is an oversight. Seems kind of unlikely they would design the cooldowns choruses do have if they were so easy to remove.

Please review http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=78224 .

They are clearly aware that the choruses didn't stack and clear able to make ones they want stack. They are specifically choosing not to.

Archer is not a support class. Like many true RPG games you get a choice when advancing the character between perfecting your DPS, or sacrificing a little DPS for support. Dancer is the latter choice for archers. Dancer is actually better DPS with double strafe than even Alchemist had with any of its skills (mammonite, acid terror, bomb, summoned plants) pre-trans. For reference, in this example, Alchemist is the "give up a little offense for some support" path of merchant. Even crusader, the semi-support branch of swordie, had only negligibly better offense than a dancer. Right now, genetic is better at crippling guilds with offensive status (which should be wanderer's role, considering gypsy's role), and can actually kill people and MVPs. Why is Wanderer so much weaker? Can you explain this? It sounds to me like less logical and more a personal opinion that this one class should be fully support coming off an offensive tree, when no other class does this. It is also illogical, considering how difficult it is to balance when they can fall back on offensive skills from their previous job(s).

Figure 4: the skill balancing patch adds reverb split damage http://forums.irowik...2&postcount=483
Figure 5: tester summing up the Metallic Sound changes post patch http://forums.irowik...9&postcount=471

You don't think its weird that both the people you quoted agree with me, that the skill shouldn't be this weak?

My question is, "why did I need to go digging through the forums to find this stuff?

Because now that you have cited specific facts I was able to refute them. now the ball is in your court again. This is how proper debate works, instead of you attacking other peoples' ideas without base.

I have a battle bishop. Its fun as hell. I don't see why my bishop gets to choose bewteen 3 builds (support, ME, battle) and my wanderer has 1 static cookie cutter build? What's your logic behind this?

[Kadelia]

Bottom line is I want you to stop going all over the place. Stop going off on tangent here-say about "if they buff X I allege that Y will not be buffed, with 0 data to back up this claim." you attacke dmy idea. So support your attack. Answer these questions:

1. Why do you think roughly 9000-10000 damage in PVE with metallic sound is useful for anything when Arrow Vulcan can do this with a shorter delay and the ability to pretty on elemental weakness, and do about 1.5x this amount? Please also bear in mind that MDEF of monsters is generally stronger than DEF, with resulting damage of metallic sound generally being 5000 damage or less, while AV's base damage still floats around 7000 (this is before elemental weakness). What do you think the usefulness of this skill is in PVE? Does it have one? I argue as it stands it is not useful.

2. This skill has an SP drain component. This is clearly not for PVE. This is clearly for WOE. This skill is forced neutral and does no more than 5k damage after WoE reduction. That means at most abouit 2000 damage on a player wearing cranial/immune/beret/combat knife, with 0 mdef. This is 200 SP sapped. Do you feel 5 second cooldown on 200 SP sapped is fair. What do you think about the usefulness of this skill in WoE. Does it have one? I argue as it stands it is not useful.

3. What is your justification for having skills on a skill tree that are not useful? If Arch Bishop (a support class) had a spell that had a 1% chance of stunning all players on screen with a 5 second cooldown, wouldn't you complain that this skill is useless and either needs to be removed due to being not in keeping with the role of the class, or buffed to be actually useable? either way its dead weight on the skill tree is it not?

4. Please provide some data as to why doubling the base damage of metallic sound would effect Wanderer's WoE, PVE, or MVP role in an adverse way.

Edited by Jaye, 08 July 2011 - 05:49 AM.

[Marloe]

Wait, so the Devs are currently paying attention to chorus skills and suchlike? I'm getting what I want, whereas you are getting sour grapes? It's almost like they have the same design ideas about the class as I do. *Gasp* I am so surprised by this. I thought you hadn't READ those patch notes. What a great point they make. Yeah, they've always been heavy handed when they hand out the nerf/buff bat. When they hit Metallic with it they knocked it out of the damn park. Still, I interpret that as "whoops, that's not what we want W/M to do" and you think they should hit it back. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Funny, really. Not to comment too much on the next use of the "nerf" side of the bat, but Suras need some attention.

But, you know what? I won't convince you. What you want is not what I want. At least I'm getting what I want. Onto wanting more, and you can take up getting Metallic reworked with Heim. Speaking of which, I guess I should finally present my thoughts in the format Heim and Oda desired when they created the thread. Apologies for wasting a lot of space - I'm new here and didn't realize not to feed the troll.

Performers:

Skill: Melody of Beyond/Melody of Sink
Thought on Change: Personally, I'm all for the changes to its targeting (all enemies rather than all players). The effect of lowering Max HP could be substituted for -VIT (I know the status mechanics are getting a change, but it's not fair to them to help maestro break immunity to frost joke with melody of sink and not help gypsy break immunity to stun). I hear Howling is getting nerfed, so moving these effects to a performer is a pretty strong way to restate the W/M role.

Skill: Infinite Humming Voice
Thought on Change: What is the purpose of this skill? Having this apply phen effect is strong. Having it balanced by its effect on all targets in range and long cooldown (not to mention getting into it being taken off immediately by a siren's, which i think shouldn't happen) is valid. Having it unusable in WoE has just never made sense. 16 points to unlock a skill that gives phen effect in PvE? If it worked in WoE it would be totally justified as one of the strongest support buffs in game.

Skill: Lerad's Dew
Thought on Skill: This skill is TERRIBLE. Only works as a pre-req (and it's only for infinite humming and sink) and doesn't have much of an effect (even with a larger effect radius.) If the effect was changed to give increased potion efficiency (30% at level five, 50% with max performers) maybe it'd make a huge comeback. Frankly +1000 hp just isn't the kind of buff needed in a world of 30-60k hp characters. Pre-Renewal this effect would be good, but not now.

Skill: Song of Mana
Thought on Skill: Currently SP recovery level 6 (a 1st job and mage passive) from a 3rd job buff? Increasing the skill regen effect would have to be *dramatic* to bring this skill back. I'd rather see this skill replaced by the fixed cast effect of Dance with a Warg.

Skill: Song of Destruction
Thought on Skill: Looking forward to this skill update. Song of Destruction would be one of a few choruses that won't care much about having its effect overwritten by silly skills like circle of nature/DST/lullaby. Would like the status inflicted to be something less likely to be resisted (or unresistable), but hey if it does what it says on the tin and has a cooldown of a minute or less I'm happy.

Skill: Gloomy Day
Thought on Skill: High rate of success and spammable, please. I HATED this skill as a buff. I want to see this as a dangerous disable to apply, but added as a nasty way for W/M to counter mounted classes.

Skill: Poem of the Netherworld
Thought on Skill: why can't this be casted under people? manhole can, and manhole is more lockdown. Being removable by priest is fine, being removable by Sura is less fine. Not a whole lot W/M can do to Suras, but a whole lot Suras can do to us. Something to keep them away from us would be kind of handy.

Skill: Reverb
Thought on Skill Change: What *IS* the purpose of this skill? Being able to use get 5-8 (depending on cast time) of these together before they go off may actually make this skill useful for screwing around in PvP (only reasonable opportunity to drop this many is 1v1; with their split damage maybe a way to add damage in a share party?) This is melody strike with weird mechanics and the split AoE does more harm than good (accidentally pulling monsters into the support line). If dominon gives the reverbs a significant damage boost I could see this as a buff. Changing the split damage to a cap (say damage will be split amongst monsters up to 1/2, afterwards deals true aoe) might make this an alternative to SR (but why do we need an alternative to SR? It's the AV for levels 100-150, and while no one LIKES it; it works)

Severe Rainstorm:
Thought on Skill Change: I sense an incoming nerf. Was this necessary? I would take almost any nerf to this skill (1/2 damage, split damage, 5-10 second additional cooldown) if I could use it with an instrument.

Siren Voice:
Thought on Skill Change: I don't like this skill primarily because it affects allies. With such a limited effect, having to reuse a solo just to control your friendly fire is irritating, and now that solos can't take it off you will have to use song of destruction to remove this. If this has been changed to have a reduced effect on allies (or even a reduced effect on players straight up) I will take it.

Deep Sleep Lullaby:
Thought on Skill Change: Self targeting makes will make it easier to use PvE. If this can be now be completely resisted, I can't say I like that, though at least you can make your allies unable to be affected by it. If Melody of Sink is strong enough to overcome this resistance, that will be pretty cool; but having this overwrite Melody when it is actually applied makes it pretty cumbersome. If this has a lower success rate (or no success rate) on allies than it does enemies (lower stats needed for resistance, maybe) VERY cool.

Great Echo:
Thought on Skill Change: Make this do damage, and/or make this do more dps by shortening its cooldown. Looking forward to seeing Sensing teams use this to tap/level in PvE.

Thought on Stacking Skill Change: Don't see why wanderers and minstrels have to compete over solos - if we're both meant to be in the same parties, why can't our solos stack/synergize with each other? DSL/Siren being in the same class as choruses sucks (though it does buff DSL and Siren - we as a class no longer have practical methods of unsleeping/uncharming allies [except Circle of Nature, which is some kind of cruel joke by the devs.]) On the flip side of this; that means two skills with really really SHORT cooldowns and wide range can take off chorus buffs. That isn't nice at all.

Choruses in General: Chorus mechanics could stand to be buffed to affect all allies or all players (in range) in woe. Most 50-80 member alliances can only muster 5-12 performers on a good WoE, and REQUIRING 2 of them to be in each party isn't going to magically increase the number of performers that play - it's just going to marginalize the choruses that can't be effectively used due to low performer attendance. Making the current chorus buffs apply more widely and more easily may make things easier for those invest the considerable amount of points to get them.

Did I miss something important? No? Good.

@Jaye -

1. Does it need to be useful PvM? Also is that figure assuming the wanderer is question is buffing her matk with her moonlit serenade song, voice lessons 10 and the target is in Deep Sleep (you could lex too I guess). If that isn't the theoretical limit to a max int gypsy with all of that going for her (I don't have a copy of this calc you've built) I can make the argument that making wanderer solos more powerful AND making DSL work on PvM maps *IS* your buff. Should I be complaining that maestros not having access to a mATK increasing skill marginalizes them?
2. Fair to you, or fair to the person being hit by it? The original metallic was deemed unfair to the person being hit by it and as a reaction to that got its damage, sp drain, cast time, and reuse delay nerfed.
3. There is one (often more) totally useless skill in EVERY skill tree for each iteration of EVERY class. When I said (long ago) that fixing song mechanics would make *everything* W/M do have a use I was trying to be humorously ironic. In actual fact allowing solos from W to stack with solos from M would leave JUST metallic out Now, do you need me to write you a list of these for each and every class in RO, or will you take my word for it?
4. doubling the damage of metallic sound might cause people to think it wasn't useless. They would skill it, try to get level 4 +matk weapons, spend much time and effort overupgrading these weapons for +7 matk per upgrade (ignoring the overup bonus effect, which is the REAL reason weapons over +10 are so strong). Then when they found the skill WAS useless, they would have to buy a skill and stat reset to max great echo instead, and a new overupgraded attack based weapon to use it.

400 sp sapped isn't going to be good in WoE. 20k damage on a single target isn't that great in PVE where AoE damage is king. 20k damage on a single target isn't going to be good MVPing, either.
Frankly, the only way to make the skill not useless would be to significantly up its sp drain (which I really just don't feel kRO developers want to do, seeing as how when its sp drain WAS good they nerfed the ever living piss out of it.)

Edited by Marloe, 15 July 2011 - 01:59 PM.

[Kadelia]

Wait, so the Devs are currently paying attention to chorus skills and suchlike? I'm getting what I want, whereas you are getting sour grapes? It's almost like they have the same design ideas about the class as I do.

Jebus! Get over yourself Read some damn updates! The last patch (2 weeks ago?) added sound amplifier accessory that doubles Metallic Sound damage. This is a very poor way to buff a skill though (through gear) and really doesn't go far enough. Just like none of the chorus buffs go far enough.

*Gasp* I am so surprised by this. I thought you hadn't READ those patch notes.

Obviously between the two of us you are the only one that doesn't.

But, you know what? I won't convince you. What you want is not what I want. At least I'm getting what I want. Onto wanting more, and you can take up getting Metallic reworked with Heim.

That's what i was doing when you attacked my idea. So if you ain't got a problem with it, rescind your arguments.

1. Does it need to be useful PvM? Also is that figure assuming the wanderer is question is buffing her matk with her moonlit serenade song, voice lessons 10 and the target is in Deep Sleep (you could lex too I guess). If that isn't the theoretical limit to a max int gypsy with all of that going for her (I don't have a copy of this calc you've built) I can make the argument that making wanderer solos more powerful AND making DSL work on PvM maps *IS* your buff. Should I be complaining that maestros not having access to a mATK increasing skill marginalizes them?
2. Fair to you, or fair to the person being hit by it? The original metallic was deemed unfair to the person being hit by it and as a reaction to that got its damage, sp drain, cast time, and reuse delay nerfed.
3. There is one (often more) totally useless skill in EVERY skill tree for each iteration of EVERY class. When I said (long ago) that fixing song mechanics would make *everything* W/M do have a use I was trying to be humorously ironic. In actual fact allowing solos from W to stack with solos from M would leave JUST metallic out Now, do you need me to write you a list of these for each and every class in RO, or will you take my word for it?
4. doubling the damage of metallic sound might cause people to think it wasn't useless. They would skill it, try to get level 4 +matk weapons, spend much time and effort overupgrading these weapons for +7 matk per upgrade (ignoring the overup bonus effect, which is the REAL reason weapons over +10 are so strong). Then when they found the skill WAS useless, they would have to buy a skill and stat reset to max great echo instead, and a new overupgraded attack based guitar to use it.

400 sp sapped isn't going to be good in WoE. 20k damage on a single target isn't that great in PVE where AoE damage is king. 20k damage on a single target isn't going to be good MVPing, either.
Frankly, the only way to make the skill not useless would be to significantly up its sp drain (which I really just don't feel kRO developers want to do, seeing as how when its sp drain WAS good they nerfed the ever living piss out of it.)

1. I don't see why reverb, metallic, or great echo should not be useful in PVM. Severe Rainstorm is great, and will probably be better than all the song skills, even if they were buffed. I don't see a problem with equal but different alternatives. Why do you?

2. I also agree losing 5000 SP with a 1 sec cooldown is unfair. But right now its 200 SP with a 5 second cooldown. Like Billy Joel, Gravity goes to extremes. I'd like to see it sap around 1000 SP with a 2 second cooldown (with a max MATK, max lessons, max Metallic Sound skill lvl). Is that a problem?

3. Every class' players make a case to lobby for their useless skills to become useful. A lot of these skills have been corrected (specifically Mechanic, Ranger) and the point of this thread is to air more concerns like this. What is your problem here? Would you also deny Shadow Chasers the right to lobby to have Triangle Shot do more damage?

4. If you actually read the thread you quoted me pointing at when you began attacking my proposal, you'd see screenshots and calculations of the damage. With level 150/50, a highly upgraded Rose Vine (130 matk), Deep Sleep, two sound amplifier accessories, lex Aeterna, and a doubled base damage of the skill I am asking for, you can do about 180k damage on a single target before MDEF (note: magma2 monsters reduce this to around half, woe would reduce this to about 2/5th = 36k). That is a pretty elaborate setup to not kill a bio3 monster or any player (other than a warlock or genetic, though both have MDEF usually, so you'll do some deal less than 36k) in WoE. Otherwise you're talking about sleeping someone, double teaming them with a priest, and having a 5 second cooldown to do just 19k, which is weaker than a single dragon's breath, etc. Hell Plant from the half support genetic is better than this. Its pretty tame even doubled. Being able to do about 18k without a priest is 1.8k SP sapped, that is pretty good.

Edited by Jaye, 08 July 2011 - 09:02 AM.

[Marloe]

Is that factoring in the effect of Moonlit, too? If it's not, I can begin to understand why they are so slow to fix it. 900 sp sapped isn't that bad, either; considering you can combo that into another Deep Sleep -> Metallic Sound without TOO much trouble. Hell, I'd call that actually half-decent. Sorry that equipment buffing isn't enough for you: the short of it is in my mind more chorus skill buffing takes priority - and that you, with the data you've so helpfully provided, are getting a decent buff to your pet skill already.

I mean, just for the record; you're telling me that you have an (largely unresistable, but can be dispelled) aoe disable that can be followed up with damn near twoshotting squishy classes (at 150 but in non-MDEF gear) and getting a good sized SP drain on the others? And you want this skill buffed so that you CAN ONEshot either an SP bar or an HP bar on a lexed player? And finally, you're telling me that my fear you desired a woe role or a woe skill that was a straight up analogue of a bomber is flat out ridiculous and I should feel like a troll for thinking that way? TBH, I'm feeling like a troll for calling this skill useless, now. Damn sight better than Lerad's OR Circle once you min/max it.

It's funny that you compare the damage unfavorably to dragon's breath, because that is a class that has NO support skills whatsoever and revolves almost purely around dealing as much damage as possible. I rather think they SHOULD out damage you, y'know.

I'm already getting the idea that this skill will become a viable alternative to Arrow Vulcan (at least for wanderers, who have a Matk whip AND Matk selfbuff) once these items you think are not "enough" are implemented. I know you dislike the idea of needing two accessories to do that damage but to perfectly honest if you had that amount of damage AND could equip two brisingamen that sounds somewhat OP.

Edited by Marloe, 08 July 2011 - 10:38 AM.

[MistyRika]

<No need for this>

I agree that the classes need some more balance. A performer is pretty much a support class (at least, for WoE) and when all our buffs are lame or getting nerfed (gloomy), who wants to play one just to become fodder?

Edited by Makk, 12 July 2011 - 12:34 PM.
forum rules

[asayuu]

I agree that the classes need some more balance. A performer is pretty much a support class (at least, for WoE) and when all our buffs are lame or getting nerfed (gloomy), who wants to play one just to become fodder?

A living target! Oh wait. If I really want to be a living target... I WOE as a linker... Oh. I already WOE as a linker~ hehe~

At least the new Gloomy will be something very great, and we can make those stupid [hehe] dragon breathers shut up. And unlike Masquerades, having a ranged ability.

I just wonder the rate. If the rate is over 20%, oh perfect

---

But I want my support skills~ being able to support people.

Circle of Nature should grant immunity to Siren's Voice and Deep Sleep while on effect.

All the chorus should go back to the chart. I want Song of Mana healing SP in a good amount, being able to match the power of Epiclesis, or being a buff that doubles SP regen that stacks with Magnificat.

I want Dance with Wargs complementing Sacrament. Sacrament 5 replaces any other skill that touches fixed cast time~ And Swing Dance does it better. So Dance with Wargs could affect the cooldown of a skill.

I want Lerad's Dew doing something useful. Like: 1000 SP on level 5 is just useful to level beginners. Make percentual or make it increase 10000+(3000 x Performers-2) on level 5. (This would be OP just on theory. Wanderers with 50k HP = /slur)

I want Infinite Humming being useful in WOE. No skills should be uninterruptable, unless this skill buffs them.

I would also love Saturday Night Fever [being "infinite" duration like the LK Frenzy, 15 seconds is too few time], Warcry of Beyond and Song of Sinking being powerful [?] debuffs which affects everyone in the zone. It would be nice Warcry lowering 60 VIT instead of ?? [60?]% HP. My stun arrows would be useful again o:

If Suras are able to debuff performer buffs, at least they should have something decent to debuff. And I just hope the stun coming from Song of Destruction bypasses any resistance, like Deep Sleep was is supposed to be. Even level difference. The damage is crappy, but I really wish this stun works properly.

I am sorry, Jaye, but even with your clear data and numbers, I need to agree with Marloe. We have 16 (17, counting with Dominion Impulse?) support skills and 5 attack skills in our third job tree. I don't know why the attack skills should be buffed before the support skills. I hate gear-fix, but it is being made on the attack skills. I hope this works well though.

Also. Today I posted on the Neutral Barrier thread, and found a Gypsy skill that needs an urgently buff. Do you know that "Hermode's Rod"? Yes, that. It is a Dispell + Classical Pluck that affect ONLY ALLIES. And only positive buffs. It also requires a portal to cast and it only works in WOE.

Edited by Makk, 12 July 2011 - 12:34 PM.

[Marloe]

Hermod's is a bizarre skill. If anything I'd say it reminds me of Lerad's. Like Lerad's, it has this impression that it was balanced and designed for the way WoE worked BEFORE it was implemented, and when it was implemented enough of the actual WoE strategy had changed and it was left by the wayside.

Hermod's was supposed to be a precast breaker - if you put it up on the other side of a portal it would give 100% spell resistance to everything within the radius. The cost of this was not allowing spell use within the field, and removing all friendly buffs. That is 100% tailored to how precast breaking worked when all that was available was WoE1, and would have been good if the solo affected the caster by default (instead the users, who weren't THAT tanky, would just get focused and die). Not to mention that you would have had to CAST this on of the old CPs + precast lines, which usually broke the moment ANYONE got a spell off. Having that first spell prevent any further spellcasting was the opposite of what most guilds desired, and did more harm than good.

Eventually people discovered a bug that allowed you to break the mechanics of ensemble skills - if you put up an ensemble, used LoF, and then Hermod's, it would allow to you "walk" an ensemble through a portal. This would have been AMAZING if ensembles affected allies rather than just party members; but because it didn't, you needed a 10 to 30 second setup that would only protect 10 or so other people for 50 to 30 seconds tops. Sometimes people used it to help get a ME down, sometimes they didn't. If the caster had a link, he would be affected too, but having a strategy lynchpinned on not losing a performer to focused bomb-spam made this more or less unused too.

Now? I guess you're right in that it could stand to be revisited. They could change its mechanics (to no longer require a portal to activate) and increase the number of skills it would block (I think it was based on the GTB effect, which recently needed to be updated for 3rd skills) and it might become "useful" again. I could see it as short term "null magic" zones to counteract telegraphed Comet, or being an "o-_-" protection from Dbreath.

Edited by Marloe, 09 July 2011 - 12:04 AM.

[Kadelia]

Is that factoring in the effect of Moonlit, too?

Monlit's buff is mediocre.

900 sp sapped isn't that bad, either; considering you can combo that into another Deep Sleep -> Metallic Sound without TOO much trouble. Hell, I'd call that actually half-decent. Sorry that equipment buffing isn't enough for you: the short of it is in my mind more chorus skill buffing takes priority - and that you, with the data you've so helpfully provided, are getting a decent buff to your pet skill already.

Its really not worthwhile as is, but if it were to do double it would be. I am sorry you feel the need to demean my interests.

I mean, just for the record; you're telling me that you have an (largely unresistable, but can be dispelled) aoe disable that can be followed

No, it can be resisted by stats now on kRO. And cured by bishops easily.

up with damn near twoshotting squishy classes (at 150 but in non-MDEF gear)

um... no. The data I pointed out clearly states you need to double team someone and elaborately set up a kill strategy with 5+ second cooldown that probably won't kill anyone. And that's with double damage. What's the point of providing numbers if you don't read them...

analogue of a bomber

No clue what the flop you are talking about.

It's funny that you compare the damage unfavorably to dragon's breath, because that is a class that has NO support skills whatsoever and revolves almost purely around dealing as much damage as possible. I rather think they SHOULD out damage you, y'know.

Oh, you mean like fighting spirit which is a better buff than any chorus. Also Aura Blade, but that got altered on kRO to not enchant allies.

I'm already getting the idea that this skill will become a viable alternative to Arrow Vulcan (at least for wanderers, who have a Matk whip AND Matk selfbuff) once these items you think are not "enough" are implemented. I know you dislike the idea of needing two accessories to do that damage but to perfectly honest if you had that amount of damage AND could equip two brisingamen that sounds somewhat OP.

I do about ~2700 to magma monsters (level 104-107) with this on a 127 wanderer. You're talking about a 150 character doing maybe ~10 with two amplifiers. This is garbage damage in PVM on a 150 character. Severe Rainstorm can do over 60,000 damage. It would make more sense if lex aeterna on a single target monster skill could be doing more than SR, so you didn't have to waste an AoE on a single enemy. I think that is fair?

Edited by Jaye, 09 July 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[Caelum]

Just throwing this out there for everyone arguing balance and future changes. All alterations made to skills on kRO are still being tested (haven't left the test server). That means they are not set in stone. For all we know, they could scrap everything tomorrow and try new changes. Because of this, they aren't good points to argue with. For all intents and purposes, discussion of balancing should be done assuming the kRO balances don't exist.

[HRdevil]

rk's hp mod is retarded as it is, i cant wait for it to change

Nope, not really. You can still get 1HKO by an RG in exceed break or a sura.

[Shanden]

Soo.. is it me or are Rangers completely missing from this set of changes? Or did i miss a post somewhere.. >.> Someone point me in the right direction here?

[AhinaReyoh]

Soo.. is it me or are Rangers completely missing from this set of changes? Or did i miss a post somewhere.. >.> Someone point me in the right direction here?

http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=78224

[Shanden]

http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=78224

Brownie points to you!

[Kadelia]

Just throwing this out there for everyone arguing balance and future changes. All alterations made to skills on kRO are still being tested (haven't left the test server). That means they are not set in stone. For all we know, they could scrap everything tomorrow and try new changes. Because of this, they aren't good points to argue with. For all intents and purposes, discussion of balancing should be done assuming the kRO balances don't exist.

I have been playing this game for 7 years;

Aside from the renewal update, I will attest that this is not their M.O. If something makes it in game that proves to be a poor fix for something, they will not take it out, and will not create a side mechanic to replace the effect that is still able to stack with it. The only time they ever make changes to skills like this is when they get a large number of complaints about the skills from jRO and iRO (mostly jRO). As you can see, jRO disabled a number of the 3rd job skills in WoE and PVM due to bugs and balance issues. As a result kRO has begun a testing phase for skill re-balancing. Leaving this up to chance that kRO will fix it is NOT a good idea, as you can see from some skills being unchanged for as many as 2 years before getting bug corrected. Threads like these need to exist, and telling people to shut up and let kRO do its think is but unproductive and a censure of free thought. I wholeheartedly disagree with you both in spirit and based on the facts of kRO's behavior to date.

[Caelum]

I have been playing this game for 7 years;

Aside from the renewal update, I will attest that this is not their M.O. If something makes it in game that proves to be a poor fix for something, they will not take it out, and will not create a side mechanic to replace the effect that is still able to stack with it. The only time they ever make changes to skills like this is when they get a large number of complaints about the skills from jRO and iRO (mostly jRO). As you can see, jRO disabled a number of the 3rd job skills in WoE and PVM due to bugs and balance issues. As a result kRO has begun a testing phase for skill re-balancing. Leaving this up to chance that kRO will fix it is NOT a good idea, as you can see from some skills being unchanged for as many as 2 years before getting bug corrected. Threads like these need to exist, and telling people to shut up and let kRO do its think is but unproductive and a censure of free thought. I wholeheartedly disagree with you both in spirit and based on the facts of kRO's behavior to date.

Lolwut? I think you misread my post good sir. Honest mistake though, so no fault.

If you re-read it, it's focused on letting people know that it kRO balances shouldn't be put into arguments BECAUSE they aren't final. Ergo, if they are going to argue skill balancing, they should pretend kRO's current balancing isn't being done, and instead think of new balances themselves. This is to stop any "Hey guys, we don't need to worry much about it because kRO has it covered" and instead, promote more of "Well, I wonder what would happen if..." discussions. I'm hope I cleared that up for you

[Kadelia]

Dear Madam,

please re-read my post. It focused on informing you that balance changes need to be scrutinized lest they become permanent. Ergo, this discussing is positive. I hope this cleared this up for you.

[Marloe]

Dear Madam,

please re-read my post. It focused on informing you that balance changes need to be scrutinized lest they become permanent. Ergo, this discussing is positive. I hope this cleared this up for you.

Jaye's right about this. @ Caelum, there's no reference point if we simply "assume" none of the changes on the test server will ever be implemented. At this point in time they are the changes LIKELY to be implemented, and therefore can and SHOULD be challenged / discussed / criticized. If you would rather we threw all the kRO patch notes out the window and discuss things with no reference point whatsoever, take it to Suggestions.

@Jaye: You can't just *ignore* a 1.5x modifier (job 150, max lessons Moonlit) when you're making your damage estimates! Was your theoretical wandy even in mATK-centered gear? At this point I highly suspect that if a gypsy went for "oneshot damage" in the same way the old (pre-renewal) bombers went about maxing bomb, they could actually GET it with a suite of mATK gear, the +100% accessories, the mATK whip, and setting up lex shots stacked with moonlit.

Either way the argument breaks down to whether or not a wandy could kill people in WOE with Metallic. If they could; I strongly disagree with such a broadening of the performer role - which I view as a supportive class. If they can't, it's beginning to show that Jaye will request buffs until they can. If they lowered the damage modifier and increased the SP damage it might make a comeback as a lockdown skill, but I still don't consider it as important as "core" skills.

The buffs I want far MORE than 2x metallic damage are buffs to our choruses and our solos.
Let Wanderer solos stack on Minstrel Solos and increase their effect (for example, let swing dance movespeed buff stack with agi up and transfer the aspd buff to Warg).
Revisit supportive choruses to let them hit MORE than just the party (all player or all allies) as well as increase their effectiveness (lerad's giving potion efficiency, mana giving fixed cast reduction equivalent to, stacking with, or just better than Sacrament, and warg giving swing dance's hax aspd would make all three useful - at this time NONE of them are).
Let humming work in woe, goddamnit.
Turn harmonize into a buff (max of 10 all stats, doesn't overwrite bonus) rather than the OP debuff it currently is.
And finally, throw the Wanderer class a bone and make Melody of Sink remove VIT.

Curiously enough, Caelum; a great deal of my previous arguments were NOT taking all of the balance changes as granted. While I think separating Choruses from Solos was a HUGE step in the right direction, I think DSL/Siren/Gloomy and Circle should be further separated; leaving choruses all alone (another performer stated this better earlier in this thread.) I feel changes that increase "stacking" fit into the original roles of the performers as classes that were BEST at stacking powerful aoe buffs on allies and aoe debuffs on enemies. I would much rather see that role extended rather than broadened.

Edited by Marloe, 12 July 2011 - 02:49 PM.

[Kadelia]

@Jaye: You can't just *ignore* a 1.5x modifier (job 150, max lessons Moonlit) when you're making your damage estimates! Was your theoretical wandy even in mATK-centered gear? At this point I highly suspect that if a gypsy went for "oneshot damage" in the same way the old (pre-renewal) bombers went about maxing bomb, they could actually GET it with a suite of mATK gear, the +100% accessories, the mATK whip, and setting up lex shots stacked with moonlit.

If you check the screenshot the wanderer was wearing matk gear. Starting to suspect you just argue without actually looking. FYI +% matk from moonlight doesn't stack the way you think it does. Just like windmill doesn't make SR do 1.5x as much.

Its not high damage. FYI, SR does over 65k damage with an elven bow+arrows, no element, and this is considered weak @ WoE. It can bypass immune Its also a large AoE. Being able to do ~90k with a forced neutral single target skill before reductions isn't that impressive? I am not sure what your point is with the data provided.

I think its wonderful you think performers are a support class. That is a fancy personal opinion. I should hope you would find my arguments that they are a hybrid class like every other 2-2 is more compelling. Wandy is no more supportive than Sorcerer or Genetic, and those can kill. Gimping us is some sadistic personal choice of yours.

Edited by Jaye, 12 July 2011 - 04:51 PM.

[Marloe]

One +7 hat mATK gear does not make. It's acceptable to see 120-160 int on a mATK oriented character, and something like a brynhild (10% more mATK) and a nacht sieger mant (3%? matk) as well as those accessories. You were telling me you had a fancy calculator you put together just for metallic, yes? I was expecting to see some calculations. I mean I get you saying "this skill doesn't do much damage" in your screenshots but you WERE running 140 dex against 110 int and a skill with a 1200% modifier against a skill with a 1150% modifier. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess that your mATK was significantly lower than your pATK. If, post-patch, a wandy can get 160+ int (and they can, it's just a matter of how much they WANT to) and obliterate targets hp/sp at will - well, then I've been proved wrong about wanderer not being a killing class. doubling or tripling the damage based on your test would be like making the argument to double or triple clashing damage based on a unlexed and ungloomy'd hit (my god, it does less damage than pierce! buff this skill NAO!) Considering they're ALREADY tripling the possible damage with the accessories; I'm hesitant to request they sextuple it.

You're right, you got me, the assumption that they would fix moonlit to apply in a useful way is not at all implied by "altered moonlit formula."

Edited by Marloe, 12 July 2011 - 07:20 PM.

[Kadelia]

The character has a +8% matk hat, +10% matk accessories, and an overupgraded level 4 weapon. That is the most practical +MATK you can get with WoE gear on Yggdrasil server. You shouldn't need as god item (Bryn) to do decent damage with a skill-- that is silly of you to bring up. Nacht seiger mant is 2% more matk. That's like 160 damage added to every 10,000. Negligible. Stop grasping at straws and looking for logic holes that don't exist.

Its a *little* unreasonable to expect a wandy to get more than 100 or so base INT. 30 more INT is 45 more MATK, which is ~600 more damage to metallic sound. The skill should not be balanced around a useless amount of INT that creates a garbage character (lower VIT or DEX or LUK or AGI) for a whopping 610 base damage.

MATK in general is weaker than ATK. You'll see this in any warlock complain thread. 100 DEX is 200 damage to a monster; 100 INT is 150 magic damage. Weapons also add more ATK than wands do MATK. Plain & Simple. Monsters generally have higher MDEF % reduction than DEF % reduction. It should be obvious that the lower % mod on metallic versus the % mod on AV will result in lower damage. Tetra vortex does 12,000%. I am asking for 2,300% on Metallic. How you think that is a lot mystifies me.

[CeruleanGamer]

^Agreed with the poster above.

[Marloe]

Tetra is a ultimate OHKO skill on a class 100% oriented around mATK. Metallic is "hey let's add a skill to this class that hasn't needed mATK up to this point."

Metallic also stands to benefit from Moonlit Serenade, DSL, and some new gear. Is it so weird that I'd rather see Warlocks getting Wanderers in their parties to use a repaired Moonlit to do 3000% * 4 * 1.5 vortexes rather than two wanderers running around OHKOing people with 2300% * 1.5 * 2.25 * 3 Metallics?

Fixing wanderer as a support class seems more valuable to me than fixing them up as yet another way to take people out. Yeah, I'm not an expert on mATK - for 7 years of playing performers almost exclusively I've never had to think about it. Instead I learned about how to use my skills to buff those casters up. If I (or any of those performers) had wanted to kill rather than buff I would have expected myself or them to make killing characters rather than demand the ability. FYI, all the casters I knew were 100% willing to swap to bryn or whatever else they could use to increase their damage to the point they would kill someone. "reasonable expectations" of defensive gear were for people aiming to tank, not kill.

Edited by Marloe, 13 July 2011 - 01:17 PM.

[Ultimate]

pile bunker [1]