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kRO third Class Balance Changes


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#101 Oda

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:13 AM

Ok, I've been collecting the feedback on the skills, and have updated the OP with some of the "what we want to see/what we think" in the third column.

It looks like the response is mostly positive, but with most people wanting to see more details on the changes before they give a definite yes or no to the changes.

Currently, for USRC purposes Sakray has been made pre-renewal so it would not be possible to test out the patches there until USRC/RWC are over.

When we had testing for Brasilis, we had a small but dilligent group of testers letting us know about bugs and exploits, perhaps we need to set up a sort of focused Test Subject group of people who are willing to write short reports or help us test specific mechanisms before the patches get applied to the main server.
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#102 Akin

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:24 AM

perhaps we need to set up a sort of focused Test Subject group of people who are willing to write short reports or help us test specific mechanisms before the patches get applied to the main server.


Sign me up.
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#103 Puppet

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:56 AM

"Gates of Hell- This needs to be completely reduce able by Demi reduction. not made more powerful

Howling Plant- Needs to have Icon for it show when afflicted, and it needs to stop giving skill with no cast time a cast time

Reflect Damage-Disabled in Woe dont care for how it works in pvm,
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#104 Myzery

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:28 PM

Ok, I've been collecting the feedback on the skills, and have updated the OP with some of the "what we want to see/what we think" in the third column.

It looks like the response is mostly positive, but with most people wanting to see more details on the changes before they give a definite yes or no to the changes.

Currently, for USRC purposes Sakray has been made pre-renewal so it would not be possible to test out the patches there until USRC/RWC are over.

When we had testing for Brasilis, we had a small but dilligent group of testers letting us know about bugs and exploits, perhaps we need to set up a sort of focused Test Subject group of people who are willing to write short reports or help us test specific mechanisms before the patches get applied to the main server.


This just shows how much our GM team knows about the game. You copy and pasted some of the most idiotic feedback into your columns.
I don't understand why we can't just have patches like normal from kRO and not have them messed with.

Can you give us an email contact to kRO if we want to express how displeased we are with how things are being handled here? Maybe Kurt still works there, I'll just email him.
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#105 FoxyWoxy

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:40 PM

Reflect Damage - The nerf will make it next to useless in WoE considering the amount of short ranged attacks being used.
Everything else mostly formula changed so no idea on those however as long there isnt the classic edp sinx omg one shot 99% of population scenario I'll be happy.
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#106 Mischelle

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:11 PM

Can you have the kRO dev team also look at 1HQ, and make it *not* dispell attack speed potions?
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#107 Hrishi

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:55 PM

Why don't you just put the update in as it comes from kRO, why do you want to mess with it based on people who whine on this forum =/
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#108 Sera

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

Hovering: In game skill description: "...and any other magic attacks."


Uh, yeah, unless they fixed it, it doesn't do anything related to that at all.
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#109 Charon

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:24 AM

What...

There is a subforum for renewal feedback since last year, there was plenty of useful stuff said there long ago... and now you take feedback from this messed thread instead?

Also, I believe Atum sent you a long document with explanations on essentially everything in the game, about what's ok, what needs to be changed, and above all, why. And that was last year too. Apparently Heim was gonna make a thread with it to see what people think about it, but that never happened, instead we got this here lol.
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#110 Kadelia

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 04:34 AM

Why don't you just put the update in as it comes from kRO, why do you want to mess with it based on people who whine on this forum =/

Not sure I see the validity of your post hrishi, as many people who complain here are extremely intelligent, competent, informed, and wise. And many of the people who support mechanics the way they currently are are rather uninformed, irrational, and treat every measure against a game mechanic as a personal attack on their right to be better than everyone else or get to 150 in 2 days of leveling. That said, there is plenty of reason to listen to people who have constructive feedback. Especially to offset the more selfish reasons people are complacent with the way things are.

Regardless of how you feel about the game's development, there are 2 sides to every coin, and both sides "deserve" an equal voice.

Edited by Jaye, 28 April 2011 - 04:34 AM.

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#111 Braska

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 09:37 AM

Why don't you just put the update in as it comes from kRO, why do you want to mess with it based on people who whine on this forum =/


Agreed^

Don't make any custom changes until we get the patch and then get feedback whether they should stay or require some sort of change.

Edited by Braska, 28 April 2011 - 09:39 AM.

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#112 Nitro

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 10:08 AM

Ok, I've been collecting the feedback on the skills, and have updated the OP with some of the "what we want to see/what we think" in the third column.

It looks like the response is mostly positive, but with most people wanting to see more details on the changes before they give a definite yes or no to the changes.

Currently, for USRC purposes Sakray has been made pre-renewal so it would not be possible to test out the patches there until USRC/RWC are over.

When we had testing for Brasilis, we had a small but dilligent group of testers letting us know about bugs and exploits, perhaps we need to set up a sort of focused Test Subject group of people who are willing to write short reports or help us test specific mechanisms before the patches get applied to the main server.


I would be interested in reporting on specifics regarding the Guillotine Cross for certain.
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#113 Myzery

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 10:13 AM

Not sure I see the validity of your post hrishi, as many people who complain here are extremely intelligent, competent, informed, and wise. And many of the people who support mechanics the way they currently are are rather uninformed, irrational, and treat every measure against a game mechanic as a personal attack on their right to be better than everyone else or get to 150 in 2 days of leveling. That said, there is plenty of reason to listen to people who have constructive feedback. Especially to offset the more selfish reasons people are complacent with the way things are.

Regardless of how you feel about the game's development, there are 2 sides to every coin, and both sides "deserve" an equal voice.


Usually the good ideas get overlooked.

It kind of reminds me of these kids that put a lot of time in a coloring contest and some were really amazing.
Too bad the teacher decided to let a class of retarded kids judge the contest and they chose one that was complete <_< and outside the lines.
Pretty much the same concept here, the retards won't agree with logic and will end up agreeing on something like "All monsters now drop scratch and sniff stickers and Snapple lids."
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#114 CheddarJack

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 10:16 AM

So when will these updates be happening? Also when will the exp rates be changed as well?
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#115 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 11:06 AM

Shadow chaser's feint bomb still isn't great, even if they hide now. The casting time is too great and the delay before the explosion too long. The cast time should be instant and the decoy should explode immediately as long as something is standing within 2 squares of it. This would essentially make it into a hide with a 'burst' damage upon careful activation, basically Sightless Mind in reverse. I can see that being very useful.
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#116 Mwrip

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 11:45 AM

Warlock:

Comet - Making the ritual thing empower the spell rather than just ignoring the gem cost makes a lot more sense. Most people don't want a lock with them period, if they need 2 of them, it NEEDS to do something amazing. Also, a 7x7 block is far more sane than needing to hug each other to ritual cast it.

Read/Freeze/Release - Assuming the process was sped up, this makes combo casting far more viable than it was, although there's still the obvious question of whether they're now fast enough that a party will be willing to accept a lock. With melee killing in under a second, the answer is almost certainly no.

Element Balls - Upping the duration should make TV more viable in PvP, since you can do the setup on it from a distance, instead of being easily killed before you finish the setup.

I'd imagine that with these changes, the lock is a far more viable PvP class, and that's great in WoE (and BGs if they ever run again).

Unfortunately, the class is still extremely weak in PvM, where melee outperforms them in every measurable way, and where the status effects don't matter since no monsters will survive more than 1 full second of combat anyway. If we ever get those elite dungeons and MATK gets less of a nerf (or caster gear doesn't end at level 80, and instead actually scales to match the enormous power boost that 3rd job melee gets), however, I could see the lock actually being more than a novelty class again.
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#117 Sera

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 11:59 AM

No offense to the person who wanted to use Suicidal Destruction in MVPing, but I think that's a pretty stupid idea and completely not the intent of the skill. If a mech wants to MVP, they have HSCR, and that's just the way it goes.
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#118 Hrishi

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:09 PM

Not sure I see the validity of your post hrishi, as many people who complain here are extremely intelligent, competent, informed, and wise. And many of the people who support mechanics the way they currently are are rather uninformed, irrational, and treat every measure against a game mechanic as a personal attack on their right to be better than everyone else or get to 150 in 2 days of leveling. That said, there is plenty of reason to listen to people who have constructive feedback. Especially to offset the more selfish reasons people are complacent with the way things are. Regardless of how you feel about the game's development, there are 2 sides to every coin, and both sides "deserve" an equal voice.


This would be valid if we actually got the update and people give feedback based on it. As of now, we have people suggesting irrational changes based on incomplete patch notes. The same intelligent people got Zen buffed in terms of fixed cast time on iRO, and I'm sure you'd agree with me that Sura was the last class that needed buffs.
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#119 Sera

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:24 PM

I actually kind of have to agree with both Hrishi and Jayed on this one.

Why is that comment I referred to in my last post even being considered as a serious suggestion for Suicidal Destruction?

Balancing should mean an attempt to even out the classes so that one is not particularly stronger than the other, not "Ooo! Ooo! I want to be overpowered now too!"

There are a lot of stupid people on these forums, or people who instead of offering constructive advice, are just offering advice that is a thinly veiled attempt to further their own goals and expand their power.

That said, the GMs aren't much better, and have shown in the past to consider some pretty goddamn retarded stuff for implementation into the game. While I applaud them for trying to listen to the community, there are really a number of things that need to be considered.

* What is the class's intended role in the game? (This is a dev issue, not a player issue)
* Is the class able to fulfill its intended roles adequately? (This is a player issue)
* Is this class receiving competition for its intended role from other classes which were not intended to do so?
* Is the class able to fulfill enough roles that it is not too limited to participate in the game as a main character? (For example, there will always be some classes that solo quickly, and some classes that solo slowly, but all classes should be able to solo. This goes for WoE/PVP/Leveling/MVPing/etc. All classes should be able to contribute something to each, but should have their own particular strengths)
* Is the class fulfilling too many roles, leading to an overabundance of this class in the game? (Like Suras, RGs, and RKs being the best at pretty much everything)

The GMs should have a clear vision in mind for the purpose of a class in the game, and the players should be commenting on whether that class is able to fulfill this purpose. The players should not be defining the roles of the classes, because everyone naturally wants to be the best at everything.

Edited by Sera, 28 April 2011 - 12:26 PM.

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#120 Viri

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:31 PM

This is why they should have a player panel or something. 99% of changes are unneeded. As people learn the mechanics what WAS OH GOD OP is now, meh. It's manageable now. At least in a WoE setting. Can't use old tactics in renewal, doesn't work. Learn new tactics, most of the skills as is are very counterable minus a few. SD is fine, deep sleep was fine given you had a maestro/wanderp in your party. List could go on.
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#121 Kadelia

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:48 PM

Wanderer needs to be buffed to equal maestro <_<
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#122 olbaid

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:08 PM

Wanderer needs to be buffed to equal maestro -_-


3rd class soul linker with wanderer/maestro link? <_<
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#123 Wizard

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:41 PM

Warlock:

Comet - Making the ritual thing empower the spell rather than just ignoring the gem cost makes a lot more sense. Most people don't want a lock with them period, if they need 2 of them, it NEEDS to do something amazing. Also, a 7x7 block is far more sane than needing to hug each other to ritual cast it.

Read/Freeze/Release - Assuming the process was sped up, this makes combo casting far more viable than it was, although there's still the obvious question of whether they're now fast enough that a party will be willing to accept a lock. With melee killing in under a second, the answer is almost certainly no.

Element Balls - Upping the duration should make TV more viable in PvP, since you can do the setup on it from a distance, instead of being easily killed before you finish the setup.

I'd imagine that with these changes, the lock is a far more viable PvP class, and that's great in WoE (and BGs if they ever run again).


Huh? <_<

- Comet damage is quite good now... with the right gear it goes up to 20~35k damage... 40k~57k with hibrams... dunno why you said ppl don't want locks with them... for us... even for ET, it is easier to kill with a lock than w/o it... specially at the top floor...

- A lock can kill same fast if not faster in mob than a melee chara... it depends mostly on how you play it I must say...

- Having those balls up for more than 30 seconds is quite good for any TV built... you can always do the sey up at distance in PvP and it takes less than 5 seconds to set up again and just wait 10 more seconds to re-cast again while you can use another spells... I really don't understand your point here...

Warlocks are pretty good in WoE environment... in our guilds we have 2 150's warlocks (including myself) and we can easily take care of ppl from distance before they get in range for our melee classes...
if you think Warlocks are less than other classes in WoE environment... I guess you are miss informed... as of right now... Warlocks perform pretty good plus with these new changes... it would be even better...

Specially with the ability to cast/re-cast Reading Spell w/o cool time and the damage increase for Chain Lightning making it even more deadly than what it is right now... plus if u combine that with the upcoming "Elemental Set" you can make ppl actually wear "wind armor" as well in Siege (some ppl actually does that on Ymir than to CL and TV)

What I'm most eager to try is the new spell duration for Recognized Spell... I believe the time is getting increased by 2... that would be awesome for Warlocks like myself who don't want to spend that many points in that and still be able to get good active time for it =)
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#124 Mwrip

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

Huh? <_<

- Comet damage is quite good now... with the right gear it goes up to 20~35k damage... 40k~57k with hibrams... dunno why you said ppl don't want locks with them... for us... even for ET, it is easier to kill with a lock than w/o it... specially at the top floor...

- A lock can kill same fast if not faster in mob than a melee chara... it depends mostly on how you play it I must say...

- Having those balls up for more than 30 seconds is quite good for any TV built... you can always do the sey up at distance in PvP and it takes less than 5 seconds to set up again and just wait 10 more seconds to re-cast again while you can use another spells... I really don't understand your point here...

Warlocks are pretty good in WoE environment... in our guilds we have 2 150's warlocks (including myself) and we can easily take care of ppl from distance before they get in range for our melee classes...
if you think Warlocks are less than other classes in WoE environment... I guess you are miss informed... as of right now... Warlocks perform pretty good plus with these new changes... it would be even better...

Specially with the ability to cast/re-cast Reading Spell w/o cool time and the damage increase for Chain Lightning making it even more deadly than what it is right now... plus if u combine that with the upcoming "Elemental Set" you can make ppl actually wear "wind armor" as well in Siege (some ppl actually does that on Ymir than to CL and TV)

What I'm most eager to try is the new spell duration for Recognized Spell... I believe the time is getting increased by 2... that would be awesome for Warlocks like myself who don't want to spend that many points in that and still be able to get good active time for it =)


I didn't say they aren't useful in WoE, just that they don't have the same demand as the classes that can steamroll people. They ARE useful, they just needed a *slight* buff, and I think the comet change and speed up on the combo system should be exactly what they need to bring them in line with the usefulness of other classes. They just needed a slight kick upwards, and with this patch, they got it. Remember Wizard, most of us are NOT using Hibram, so what you're seeing for damage output isn't what 99% of lock players are seeing.

In PvM, however, the problem isn't so much the lock itself, but the monsters. Simply put, they're pushovers, so melee can kill everything before a cast bar fills, and therefore, no one wants to wait for one to fill, ever. Bosses have insane MDEF, so locks aren't useful there either. It's great that locks can set up a freeze/release combo that fires (and combos) multiple skills together in a big chain, and it's even better with this patch, but there aren't any monsters that actually justify doing that, ever. When everything dies to melee in a second, no one is going to wait for the lock to set up a combo, because whatever he was aiming at is already long dead. Elite monsters and a better exp share system should address that, but I don't know if we're ever actually getting either. Both were promised in November, and the exp part at least, is trivial to code.

Edited by Mwrip, 28 April 2011 - 01:58 PM.

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#125 Kadelia

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:07 PM

3rd class soul linker with wanderer/maestro link? <_<

that's a horrible way to do things as it makes it easier for male characters to play the game than female ones... for no reason whatsoever.
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