48 replies to this topic

[Kitten]

Certainly this was unfortunate, but you can't toss blame around like this.

Yes, I feel for you. But accept some responsibility. It is extremely unbecoming to try to act like a victim when you made the choice to teleport in the first place. Once you leave the screen, loot really is fair game.

[Zayik]

Ok, tele and instantly go back, or die then watch rogue pick up hfly card? Those were my choices. I tele'd and got back within 4 seconds, hell, my one of my firewalls was still up, leaving with me two to kill flies. The point is, this shouldn't be an issue. I do accept some responsibility for not having lots of pots on a mage, but, there's only so many pots a mage can carry. Regardless of the fact, the time limit for being the only one able to pick up loot should be increased. I'm annoyed by the fact that the rogue took it, but I also think something should be changed to prevent issues like this from happening again. Everyone here agrees that occurrences like this suck and we should try and do something about it.

I think leaving the screen to better prepare yourself against your foes doesn't mean loot automatically is fair game. I can understand the difficulties in determining whether somebody is coming back, but, there are reasons why people teleport. It isn't just to run away, but to allow ones self to go into a battle more prepared.

[Ethasi]

Ok, tele and instantly go back, or die then watch rogue pick up hfly card? Those were my choices. I tele'd and got back within 4 seconds, hell, my one of my firewalls was still up, leaving with me two to kill flies. The point is, this shouldn't be an issue. I do accept some responsibility for not having lots of pots on a mage, but, there's only so many pots a mage can carry. Regardless of the fact, the time limit for being the only one able to pick up loot should be increased. I'm annoyed by the fact that the rogue took it, but I also think something should be changed to prevent issues like this from happening again. Everyone here agrees that occurrences like this suck and we should try and do something about it.

I think leaving the screen to better prepare yourself against your foes doesn't mean loot automatically is fair game. I can understand the difficulties in determining whether somebody is coming back, but, there are reasons why people teleport. It isn't just to run away, but to allow ones self to go into a battle more prepared.

I'm just confused on how you expected to kill 2 H.flies to get to your card -after- teleporting if you couldn't do it -before- teleporting.

[Renaldoo]

Personally, in that situation, I would have died attempting to pick up the card-- Were someone else to pick it up, I'd still be in proximity to say, "Hey. Would you be so polite as to hand me that card?"

It might seem like a ridiculous concept, but in my sundry journeys through RO, I've encountered this sort of scenario many times-- Myself dying to a khalitzberg I killed simultaneously, dropping a card (APR: 25M at the time.) A paladin in my proximity picked it up, walked to me, and traded it to me. I also did it once very early on in the game when I was a complete noob who would buy meats instead of red potions to save zeny, and a phen card dropped in a similar scenario to yours-- I picked it up, sat down and waited for the knight to return. He said "did a card drop around here a little bit ago?" and I handed it to him. Later on I realized, had I kept it, I would've increased my net worth about 500 fold, but I don't think I could've committed that act, even knowing its value. Likewise have I done for others in the past-- I'd be competing against another group to find/kill MVP's, and in one scenario the competing group MVP'ed, not me, and they died to a fire pillar. Even in the scenario where we're trying to best each other, I still walked over and handed them their loot, since I couldn't revive them. Such I find to be the courtesy of Ragnarok players, not purely for formal etiquette, but out of a genuine concern and sense of community.

Walking up to an abandoned card and fleeing the scene is very, very easy. Walking up to a dead player and taking their loot requires a face-to-face rudeness that most people aren't shameless enough to commit, and those that are, you at least witness first-hand.

[Zayik]

@Ethasi X = my guy. HF = hunter fly HF - X - HF. I tele to nearby location to get a better advantage point. HF - HF - (firewall + firebolt) X
I can't firewall two hunterflies that are surrounding me at same time, especially when my move speed is the same as a hunterfly pretty much

@Renaldo I woulda asked the guy, but he teleported before I got the name. I did some more investigating, got his name after many attempts at right clicking on him when he auto telies from players.
I messaged him a few times while he was playing but he did not respond, even asked if he was a bot. No response.
I reported him so gms can investigate.

[valarauko]

Pretty sure OP is trolling.

[meoryou2]

Ok, tele and instantly go back, or die then watch rogue pick up hfly card? Those were my choices. I tele'd and got back within 4 seconds, hell, my one of my firewalls was still up, leaving with me two to kill flies. The point is, this shouldn't be an issue. I do accept some responsibility for not having lots of pots on a mage, but, there's only so many pots a mage can carry. Regardless of the fact, the time limit for being the only one able to pick up loot should be increased. I'm annoyed by the fact that the rogue took it, but I also think something should be changed to prevent issues like this from happening again. Everyone here agrees that occurrences like this suck and we should try and do something about it.

I think leaving the screen to better prepare yourself against your foes doesn't mean loot automatically is fair game. I can understand the difficulties in determining whether somebody is coming back, but, there are reasons why people teleport. It isn't just to run away, but to allow ones self to go into a battle more prepared.

You teled away = you LOSE LOOT PRIORITY. Get over it. There is no way you are going to wrangle out of it.

Rogue that got HF card for killing the two flies = lucky, MORON who teled away from the card = MORON.

There it can't get much more plain than that.

[Elementald]

Dude if im killing any monster and I tele or get snatch by a Monster and some one else picks up the card and or items that drop then said items become thoe property of the one who picked up the item. also there is a message tat pops up if your trying to take some one else loot then you cant get the item but if it does not pop open then you got yourself loot

[valarauko]

To show how "unique" OP is

[Kadelia]

they arent selfish by nature,
they are only selfish when there is scarcity - if there is enough of something they are not selfish.

if it was raining gold for months, at first people would shove it in their houses, but after a few days they'd start shoving it back out.

Hate to go off topic so feel free to PM me if you wanna continue, but I can't ignore this opinion of yours. The human Id in general is self-concerned, and has to be. At your core your priorities are all shaped by "what is good for me?". We want to preserve ourselves at all costs-- its instinct. We look for people who remind us of ourselves or where we come from in relationships because they remind us of ourselves. We create things as a testament to ourselves. We fawn over offspring because we're passing on parts of ourselves. At our very base, everyone is greedy. Children without self-value are fundamentally unstable mentally and emotionally and do not survive well in society. That self-interest is required to survive. We are all self-centered. It takes a high intellect and sentience to deny this in yourself and forcibly project outward-- the same sort of unnatural progression as a 'vegan' for example (we are built to eat meat, but the higher intellect/sentience of the individual allows for abstract concepts such as 'morality' to affect and override natural responses forcibly).

[Renaldoo]

The human Id in general is self-concerned, and has to be.

A bit of a simplification of the Id, but yes, that's the concept. You're ignoring the superego, which identifies social values and interpersonal interaction. Then you've got the Ego which balances both against reality to draw equilibrium and form coherence out of it.

You can't address an isolated unit within a collaborative system like that. It's like saying that throwing a ball in the air makes it go upwards, while ignoring that gravity will bring it back down.

Moreover, I'd argue greediness and self-concern are far different. Self-concern is a necessary aspect of humans, lest we be unable to take care of ourselves and rely on others (which is far greedier, no?) Greedy in this sense is more of an outward interaction than inward-- It's an interpersonal interaction, where self-concern is purely inward. That greediness is a neglect of others' needs moreso than a focus on your own, in that you're willing to obstruct another's needs to satisfy your own. Self-centeredness would just be you minding your own business while you let others mind theirs.

Greediness may be a product of human nature, but it itself is not human nature-- like a function. It's an output of the function given certain values and variables, but it by itself is not a part of the function.

*offtopic*

[Kadelia]

I would disagree. It seems more of an opinion of yours to split hairs on what is or isn't considered selfish in nature.

Greed is the overt action of prioritizing your needs without care for the circumstance of others. Sure. I can agree to that. But at its base, this is a natural behavior that we have at our core, as it is instinct. Animals do it too, such as beavers building a dam and harming the ecosystem around them. The reprocussions of a self-serving action is a function of higher intelligence-- as it requires understanding of those reprocussions (which an animal would be ignorant of).

Having higher brain functions/logic to think ahead and say to yourself "action A will lead to consequence B, ... and down the line this will be bad for me," ultimately leads you to make a decision that is mindful of others, while still being self-serving. There really aren't too many acts that can be justified and yet not be drawn back to a self-serving aspects. Giving to charity and not getting a reward makes you feel good? Guess what-- you did it to feel good about yourself and feel more comfortable with your environment. Empathy is a higher brain function that even the young of our own species don't have right away. Higher brain functions that let us over-analyze and think beyond the present, beyond our own needs are very much above and beyond instinct. At our instinctual level, we all are selfish.

To say its surprising that many people (especially the young, or the ones left wanting) succumb to their baser instincts is a fallacy. It is only those without want, those with fully matured minds, that can prioritize their higher brain functions carefully with fewer regards to their own needs. Immature minds generally never look past themselves (Think of the toddler/young child-- "mine! mine! mine!" and watch the evolution as they get a little older and start questioning things around them and learning about the needs of others "Is that yours?" [I've seen a lot of children around ~4yrs in this 'is that yours?' phase]).

Given the age base on this game (esp new players) I'd venture to say the person who looted the card could be really immature and quite needy (a have not). Someone like me, who is older, and very comfortable on the game in terms of virtual wealth, would be quick to pick up the card, then in turn deal it to the newbie when they returned (unless they come back cussing and jumping to conclusions-- but that is another discussion).

Making judgments about someone being a bad person because they prioritized their own needs and didn't make large concessions to someone else is a little rash. The person picking up the card may have just felt entitled to it by the virtue of the original killer abandoning it. That isn't necessarily wrong.

Heck, another way of looking at this is; the poster is villifying this other person for being greedy. But isn't this thread in and of itself an attempt to declare ownership of the card-- that he was wronged and should be compensated? This in and of itself is selfish/needy. Frankly neither party is entitled to the wealth the card would bestow. It was just going to happen by chance. Think about that.

Edited by Jaye, 11 May 2011 - 09:16 AM.

[Renaldoo]

This has been a pleasant and surprisingly civil discussion given the nature of these forums. I should like to explore the concepts further with a more in-depth discussion, but alas, I have an essay to write for my final which I *should* be focusing my efforts on.

As for Zayik, are you in need of a hunterfly card? (Or in specific need of the wealth that would come of it?) If so, contact me in-game next week (After finals) and I've got some hunterfly cards collecting dust you can have that I won't miss.

[Kadelia]

I do a lot of personal reflection on psychology though I've never formally studied it. So I like the opportunity to discuss with someone who has. As far as the nature of this forums goes, I have to say there are a lot of people who go straight to name calling or dismissing other peoples' ideas without trying to understand them or directly refute them for valid reasons. I am personally guilty of matching the tone of anyone I exchange with. If they take the civility down a notch, I follow them there.

Also that's pretty nice of you to offer the hunter fly card for free. They are cheapest on Yggdrasil if anyone wants to exploit that.

Edited by Jaye, 11 May 2011 - 10:26 AM.

[AtlasThunderbeef]

I do a lot of personal reflection on psychology though I've never formally studied it. So I like the opportunity to discuss with someone who has. As far as the nature of this forums goes, I have to say there are a lot of people who go straight to name calling or dismissing other peoples' ideas without trying to understand them or directly refute them for valid reasons. I am personally guilty of matching the tone of anyone I exchange with. If they take the civility down a notch, I follow them there.

Also that's pretty nice of you to offer the hunter fly card for free. They are cheapest on Yggdrasil if anyone wants to exploit that.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but you should always or at best you can try and be nice to others, even if they're screaming in your face.
I always try that, it works really great. :j

By being nice you create a nice atmosphere. It's often when people are prejudiced against others conflict is a result.


Why not be nice first? I mean sure, there are those who are rude by nature, but still, aren't you more happy when you smile rather than arguing?

[Kimmy]

Ymir - So, I'm leveling in hunterflies on my mage, doing the Eden Quests, and a hunter fly card happened to drop. Well, just my luck, 2 hunterflies spawn in front of me and behind me, so I have to tele. Here's the kicker, a rogue was near me and saw the whole thing. I fly wing back within 3 fly wings, and I go to try and grab it. The rogue had already grabbed it and was proceeding to teleport. Seriously, why the hell are people so god damn greedy. Can't even let a mage have their one minute of glory. You know, its hard enough making zenny as it is for some of us, but then to have some bastard just steal 70+ mil from you.
Sigh, it almost feels like the people I play with are bots. Why is that?

I wish Gms could seriously do something about that. The card was rightfully mine

(After reading what people have to say, I do know that according to RO rules, the card was "fair game". However, just about everyone feels this type of situation is very unfortunate. I'm going to send in a ticket requesting the time limit be increased (the time only the killer can pick up loot) to help prevent further occurrences like this. I wish the best of luck all of you, and unlike some people >_>, I don't believe people are selfish in nature. I think the guys a bot so I'm reporting him, he insta teleport from everything and will not say a word. We'll let gms see )

Because we're the devil's play things. O:

[Kadelia]

I'm not trying to be mean here, but you should always or at best you can try and be nice to others, even if they're screaming in your face.
I always try that, it works really great. :j

By being nice you create a nice atmosphere. It's often when people are prejudiced against others conflict is a result.


Why not be nice first? I mean sure, there are those who are rude by nature, but still, aren't you more happy when you smile rather than arguing?

You don't talk to a baby in a mature voice with complex grammar; you talk to them in a way they can understand. Talking to someone on their level is natural. I can't be arsed to go out of my way to be nice to someone who is disrespectful. Sorry. I don't hold your particular set of ideals.

Edited by Jaye, 11 May 2011 - 12:58 PM.

[Renaldoo]

You don't talk to a baby in a mature voice with complex grammar; you talk to them in a way they can understand. Talking to someone on their level is natural. I can't be arsed to go out of my way to be nice to someone who is disrespectful. Sorry. I don't hold your particular set of ideals.

I'm a "turn-the-other-cheek" kind of person. In my experiences, people tend to be humbled when their rudeness is met with politeness and patience. It lets them cool down a second and think "Wow.. I feel sort of embarrassed for behaving like a child." I try to be aware of others, see myself in their situation, and feel for their concerns even when they don't feel for mine. It lets me understand where they're coming from a little better, and vice versa by remaining calm and polite-- as I find most rudeness to stem from miscommunication or unintentional oversight of others and their needs. It's very easy for that person to be dismissive of you if you're being rude back to them. It's very difficult when someone's putting themselves in the open, because the rude person has to address an actual person directly, rather than a simplified, generalized concept of a person that exists as an arbitrary stranger.

Granted, a large portion of the gaming community is, even then, rude and jerk-ish, but they tend to stay mainly to WoW, Runescape, and first-person shooters. Ragnarok seems to have a fairly mature community, in terms of emotional maturity.


*arrgh, I seem to be making any excuse to do something other than my essay*

Edited by Renaldoo, 11 May 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[Charon]

What have I done to this thread xD

Anyways,
was what I posted really an opinion, or was it just a simple thought of logic?

"if there is an abundance, no one is selfish and greedy."


Yes there is an instinct, but it only arises when needs are not met.

You wouldn't be hiding and protecting something if everyone had access to an abundant source of it. Why would you? No one is gonna take it away, and if it magically disappeared you could get more...

[firzen]

wait, so the guy cleared the mob for the card and took what was left behind, you think you shoulda got it and HE'S greedy? Mirror check bro

[igzz]

The human Id

Please...enough of Freud

Anyway, back on topic. I feel sorry for your Hunter Fly Card loss. But as people have said, it wasn't really "unfair". Greed scrolls are a good idea. Very cheap and handy. However, I do agree that the time before someone else can pick up the loot should be increased to avoid stuff like this. There were times when I was so laggy and lost drops because a bot had faster ping than me =/ (specially during the green ale farming days).

Edited by igzz, 12 May 2011 - 03:40 AM.

[Charon]

Yes, increasing time before someone else can pick it up would be great, and there seems to be nothing against it. Would make sense though to increase the time it lies on the ground along with it.

I remember many situations, mine and from others, where someone couldnt manage to pick up something as it disappeared too fast.

Edited by Charon, 12 May 2011 - 03:52 AM.

[Kadelia]

"Wow.. I feel sort of embarrassed for behaving like a child."

You haven't been on the internet very long have you?

Ragnarok seems to have a fairly mature community, in terms of emotional maturity

You've never read iRO Wiki or any of the class-balance threads here, have you?

Yes, increasing time before someone else can pick it up would be great, and there seems to be nothing against it. Would make sense though to increase the time it lies on the ground along with it.

I remember many situations, mine and from others, where someone couldnt manage to pick up something as it disappeared too fast.

I could see this being helpful. But if I recall, the game developers were hesitant to make loot last on the ground much longer due to the toll it takes on the game server keeping track of more loot, longer. It is a poorly coded game from what we understand.

Edited by Jaye, 12 May 2011 - 04:28 AM.

[Renaldoo]

You haven't been on the internet very long have you?

Yes. I encounter it on the internet all the time, from people whom you wouldn't expect it, but especially so in Ragnarok.