86 replies to this topic

[Gantrithor]

I'll do the test sometime when the drop penalty comes back in, I have a feeling that the drop penalty will not add together the way VIP and Bubblegum do. I have not tested this but I think it'll end up for example, 20% base drop rate with 40% penalty -> 8% -> 20% with VIP and Gum. Of course, there's only one way to find out of this is correct or not.

Edited by Gantrithor, 14 May 2011 - 09:24 PM.

[BlackPotato]

even with the drop penalty off. the gum still doesnt work as intended, you can do the same testing just on lower monsters, its not like the drops work like the exp adds more when near the level of the char

[Gantrithor]

I do not know how it works with drop penalty. I will test it when the drop penalty event is over.

[IronFist]

i dono but i think card drops are, iv been grinding here for days

[Gantrithor]

What do you believe card drops are?

[BlackPotato]

finding cards is all luck and sort of unreliable. ive gotten 5 nightmare terror cards from a few days leveling in magma2, not even hardcore but no infiltrator or slotted rosary (no gum, as i said just leveling)

[Gantrithor]

I literally wasn't sure what he was asking, I was wondering if he was referring to the old rumour that gums don't affect card rates, the amount of monsters I'd have to kill to be able to test that is more than I can handle. Heimdallr's 10,000 Test he said he'd do wouldn't be enough for it.

[Ardi]

I still believe that drops are broken for VIP... getting 6-10 flowerpots on a char that is essentially speedpotting/teleing around the hermit map per HE gum kinda sums it up.

[Gantrithor]

Consider this, there are 111 monsters on that map, 81 of which are aggresive. There are only 20 Hermit Plants and they are passive, how many hermit plants can you kill in 15 minutes?

I actually went and did this. I got a HE Gum on my VIP account and went to Arcadia. Using a mass of fly wings I targetted only Hermit Plants, ignoring all other monsters including Evil Snake Lord which I found and could have killed for his 'phat lewts' which I could have sold to cover the cost of my HE Gum.

I managed to kill 57 Hermit Plants and this is what I found:
( )Indicates 90% cap.

Hermit Plant Killed 57
			Expected	Drops	%Difference
Maneater Blossom	96 (53)		54	56.25% (101.89%)
Maneater Root		76 (53)		48	63.16% (90.57%)
Hinalle Leaflet		70 (53)		50	71.43% (94.34%)
Aloe Leaflet		70 (53)		49	70.00% (92.45%)
Strawberry		20		21	105.00%
Mandragora Flowerpot	16		22	138%
Rope [4]		0		0	-
Hermit Plant Card	0		0	-

As you can see, all the drops were pretty much spot on with expectations. However I found 6 more Mandragora Flowerpots than expected. This could easily be due to the small sample size. Because of this it is also entirely possible to only get 6 Mandragora Flowerpots in 15 minutes. That does not mean VIP is broken.

VIP and Gums are not technically broken, it is just that VIP gives a gum-like bonus, whereas before subscription servers had their server drop rates increased. Furthermore, it is the way that VIP stacks with Gums that leads to the increase in drops to be less than that of the old system. In this case, the boost is 3.5x instead of 4.5x.

[brokenguy]

Consider this, there are 111 monsters on that map, 81 of which are aggresive. There are only 20 Hermit Plants and they are passive, how many hermit plants can you kill in 15 minutes?

I actually went and did this. I got a HE Gum on my VIP account and went to Arcadia. Using a mass of fly wings I targetted only Hermit Plants, ignoring all other monsters including Evil Snake Lord which I found and could have killed for his 'phat lewts' which I could have sold to cover the cost of my HE Gum.

I managed to kill 57 Hermit Plants and this is what I found:
( )Indicates 90% cap.

Hermit Plant Killed 57
			Expected	Drops	%Difference
Maneater Blossom	96 (53)		54	56.25% (101.89%)
Maneater Root		76 (53)		48	63.16% (90.57%)
Hinalle Leaflet		70 (53)		50	71.43% (94.34%)
Aloe Leaflet		70 (53)		49	70.00% (92.45%)
Strawberry		20		21	105.00%
Mandragora Flowerpot	16		22	138%
Rope [4]		0		0	-
Hermit Plant Card	0		0	-

As you can see, all the drops were pretty much spot on with expectations. However I found 6 more Mandragora Flowerpots than expected. This could easily be due to the small sample size. Because of this it is also entirely possible to only get 6 Mandragora Flowerpots in 15 minutes. That does not mean VIP is broken.

VIP and Gums are not technically broken, it is just that VIP gives a gum-like bonus, whereas before subscription servers had their server drop rates increased. Furthermore, it is the way that VIP stacks with Gums that leads to the increase in drops to be less than that of the old system. In this case, the boost is 3.5x instead of 4.5x.

That's exactly what people are complaining about. Suppose you are buying a 1lbs burger from a fast food place. Then they change the name of this 1lbs burger and reduce the meat to be about .9lbs and charge you the same amount. Meh... because a lot of people on ymir are getting that rate and then now they are losing it and are paying the same amount makes them mad. It would make anyone mad really by not getting what you expected that you paid for.

[Gantrithor]

Sorry if I am misunderstanding or misunderstood, I am not stating whether I am mad about it or not. I am merely saying, that is how it used to work, this is how it works now, and what the difference between now and before was.

Although in my original post I did state that I was finding I had less drops than before, and after a long long time of testing, I found that yes, I am getting less drops than before.

--Quote from post #1--

Spoiler

Conclusion:
There was a no drop penalty event when I tested this and therefore this does not currently factor in the drop penalty.

Regular Bubblegum is +100% as the item description says or x2
HE Bubblegum is +200% as the item description says or x3

VIP is +50% as it says or said on the website, 1.5x

Combined you get 2.5x and 3.5x for regular gums and HE gums respectively.

Those type of bonuses are capped at 90%

--
In the old system, from what I gather, there was no actual bonus from being subscribed, the 'bonus' came from setting the drop rates to 1.5x on subscription servers.

Because of this, in the old system, you would expect this.

Subscription x1.5, uncapped.

Subscription + Regular Gum, Base rate x1.5, then +100%, effectively giving 3x.

Subscription + HE Gum, Base Rate x1.5, then +200%, effectively giving 4.5x

It is entirely possible that re-roll theory was never true in the first place, it was the base rate change of 1.5x which nullified the 90% cap effect leading to many people believing in this theory.

Edited by Gantrithor, 17 May 2011 - 09:26 PM.

[BlackPotato]

well. heim stated in another thread for me to let it go. which im not, cause its bull... he said theyre working perfectly, albeit not since you all have kinda worked a lot to show just how it isnt working. maybe if he played the damn game he moderates then it would be very apparent that its not working but w/e. never spending another penny on this game and i hope you all do the same

[Heimdallr]

I in fact take the numbers presented as working precisely as intended.

IF the gum had no effect on the amount of stuff you get or if VIP did NOT enhance the amount of stuff you get, I would say it is broken.

Potato your expectations do not align with what is presented nor the reality of the situation. I don't know how to fix your understanding, but your constant dredging up of this topic is not necessary. You obviously want it to do more than it is supposed to do, well it isn't a Premium server anymore. We dropped the price for the VIP benefit compared to the Premium Subscription and the desired system it is now is what it is actually now, you actually get alot more game play value out of a VIP than you did when it was a subscription, in the mobility and access and buffs. But how much stuff falls on the ground is not exactly the same amount that it was when it was a Premium server, and that difference is in the design. The amount of stuff you are "missing out on" due to this difference is very miniscule and only existed because we put the rate TOO HIGH before, we should have done about 120% when renewal came out and none of you would have known the difference and thus no complaining now. But I would rather be honest and give the value we stated on the website, which is what we are giving now.

From a Game system standpoint the VIP does in fact give +50% drop bonus, the gums do in fact give +100% and 200% bonus. I know because I inputted the numbers on configurations. But it does not mean an item is 350% as likely to fall on the ground as it is without any benefit due to the way the game handles upper limits, this has always been the case with the diminishing returns. With Gum is more chance, with VIP it is still more chance.

What I am going to do on Friday is do the 10,000 kill test on my internal server, with the various grades of gum and VIP.

What I will seek to gather is a confirmable number of what are the enhancement caps. With it I "might" be able to mess with the gums like we did for the BMs. The limiter on this is already pointed out in this thread with the "cap" on drop chance. I know it isn't a hard cap, but certainly adding 1% beyond that point doesn't increase the chance by 1%.

[BlackPotato]

thank you. i never said it has "no effect" but im glad you actually got my concept that its the same problem as with the exp. cant come soon enough

Edited by BlackPotato, 18 May 2011 - 02:23 PM.

[Heimdallr]

I have about half of the test done, and I can confirm one thing already. Gum enhancements will never raise an items drop % above 90%. So if an item was 70% likely to drop, gum would peak it at 90%. If the item was made to 100% drop it would still drop 100% of the time.

With that said the most impressive gains are made with VIP and HE Gum on things that are in that 20 and higher range as it super boosts them linearly to extreme drop likelihood.

[Fureedo]

I have about half of the test done, and I can confirm one thing already. Gum enhancements will never raise an items drop % above 90%. So if an item was 70% likely to drop, gum would peak it at 90%. If the item was made to 100% drop it would still drop 100% of the time.

With that said the most impressive gains are made with VIP and HE Gum on things that are in that 20 and higher range as it super boosts them linearly to extreme drop likelihood.

I can't wait to see your numbers, because right after VIP was implemented, there was a post with a test with venom canines (which usually drop at 90%), that showed them dropping 95% of the time with VIP. This doesn't fit your cap theory, but does fit the fact that VIP act the same way as half a gum.

And no, you terribly misunderstand probabilities if you think that a reroll will EVER give higher chances that a straight multiplier like it was before. Aren't people in humanities supposed to take probabilities classes in the US, or it's only up here in canada?

I'm sure that in the end, your test will show just that. That there is no cap, and that the VIP bonus works just like gum, and that the reason it never hits 100% is because of how probabilities work with rerolls.

@everyone else: even if they bumped the VIP bonus to a bazillion times the drop, because of how probabilities work, it will never be like before. They clearly don't have the programming means to make it like before withouth making it a server-wide thing, which would require, as before, a vip and a non-vip server =s

Edited by Fureedo, 23 May 2011 - 04:43 PM.

[Heimdallr]

Testing parameters.
Level Penalty was OFF
monster was created : lvl 98 Poring,
10,000 kills were done at each of the 6 parameters.



Further testing could be to see how the level penalty would effect this further.
Further check what happens if we actually put the real card drop rate into the system (cards drop more often than 0% in iRO)

[Misery]

how can vip get more silver arrows droped then vip+gum?
and no vip + gum more fire arrows then vip+gum ?
it looks liek the 50% drop increase is totaly random and you should make it to 100%
there should have been a reason in gums only working in steps of 100% in the frist place

[Heimdallr]

You do understand that this was a test of 60,000 monsters killed, and that probability only approaches exactness as larger sample sizes are used? If I did 100,000 kills for each test it likely would just get closer to the exact expected results (ie 90% in your example)

[Fureedo]

From Heim's data, I think we can conclude this:

Gum-like multipliers adds up, they don't multiply.
Gum-like multipliers multiply the drop % and then cap it at 90% unless it was above 90% to start with.

This fit with pretty much all the data, except for the creamy card and lower. I'm guessing that the number of drops/kills were just too low for them to be representative.

[Freedom]

so useing he gum is usless from what gather from those numbers, thanks for making me feel idk dumb for useing he gum.

[DrAzzy]

Facinating - so it's capped multipliers, and 0% drop rate items drop disturbingly often, but their drop rate seems uneffected by gum.

so useing he gum is usless from what gather from those numbers, thanks for making me feel idk dumb for useing he gum.

Only if you were hunting something with a drop rate higher than 25% (vip) or 30% (non-vip) - those are the base drop rates that will hit the cap. Below that drop rate you get the full benefit from HE gum.

Edited by DrAzzy, 24 May 2011 - 08:41 AM.

[Gantrithor]

[quote name=''Fureedo']From Heim's data' date=' I think we can conclude this:[/quote']
Conclude? You mean 'Confirm' /pif

Jokes aside, how easy/hard is it for you to summon and kill and pick up loots, do you have some kind of super GM powers to speed that up? Because one thing I really want to know but am unable to test is the old belief that cards are for whatever reason unaffected by gums.

Also, are the 0% in the table meant to be 0.01% or something similar? Because I would think that 0% drops should drop about, 0 times.

[JAYRAD]

heim, youre not very good at making spreadsheets look good :x

[Heimdallr]

Jayrad : Yes that was my actual data tracking excel file, I figured if someone wanted to go nuts and make it pretty they may.

If you are curious about what my tests actually looked like, I am putting a youtube video up regarding it. It looks funny (IMHO) if you have never seen 500 Porings explode all at once and actually see a delay when using greed skill.

And about the 0% drop. There are mystical properties associated with the 0% drop, they still do (as any apple drops will confirm). By default card drop rate is 0 but the game rounds 0 up from "no way pal" to "slim chance in Niflheim". On iRO we raised the card drop rate because honestly ~ 10,000 kills for one doesn't work when 10,000 kills is like 60 levels. I will run the test again on Friday (when I have a little bit more free time) to see what happens with the normal low % drop items like cards and equipments.

And I see a bit of concern that you may not be getting full usage out of the your gum for certain items. This is true of some items that already have high drop rate, but most of the stuff that you all truly are hunting for (equipment, bomb materials, cards) all are lower than that 30% rate, most of the high drop stuff are etc items that are not used extensively other than sell to NPC (old alcohol & coating bottle materials aside). I know I would still default to Gum when hunting.

This does confirm that Gum and VIP do work together properly, there isn't a diminishing return on using them together. The only catch is 90% is a cap on how far something can be modified up to.

I will reconfigure the Poring to only drop the silver arrows and the normal card rate item, and see what effect can be spotted in a larger run of no-VIP/Gum vs full VIP+ HE Gum.