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#1 renouille

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:16 AM

Yes the intention was to only require a 1 time "chance" at breaking getting to +7. Then if you are dedicated and lucky you can get your desired upgrade level without break risk.

Some have said that upgrading from +7 is safe; this is false. You can run out of ores. You can run out of zeny. Your power might go out. Maybe the server crashes. You can be disconnected, whether by acts of God or acts of some exploiter who doesn't like you.

Suppose you discount all of the "accident" scenarios and concentrate only on not running out of ores. If you have 50 ores at +7, you have a 2.9% chance of failing and not making it back to +7 before running out. If you have 100 ores, you have a 0.17% chance of failing and not making it back to +7 before running out. That's a lot of money to spend on something you might not need again, just to lower the failure chance to several times the card drop rate. How much is enough?

Ideally, each item would be tagged upon reaching +7, and Mighty Hammer would always upgrade tagged items regardless of their upgrade level. The server doesn't allow this, though. Here's another idea that, while not perfect, achieves the "intention" of a 1-time break chance and should actually be implementable with the current software.

1. Every time Mighty Hammer upgrades an item, if it ends up below +7, save the item id, cards, and level in character-specific variables.
2. When you're choosing an item to upgrade, Mighty Hammer accepts it if it is at least +7 -or- it matches the saved item (id and cards) and has an equal or higher refine level.

That's it. This limits each character to working with one "oops, +7->+6" item at a time, but you no longer have to worry about disconnecting or running out. To show that this is not a difficult concept, I even went and wrote some pseudocode for it:


After every upgrade

insert:
if (level < 7) {
	// allow user to upgrade the same item after a dialogue
	// restart even if it's below +7
	saved_item = item;
	saved_cards = cards;
	saved_level = level;
} else {
	// don't save anything
	saved_item = 0;
	saved_cards = [0, 0, 0, 0];
	saved_level = 0;
}

Beginning of dialogue

insert:
if (saved_item) {
	// remind user that they can continue upgrading
	// previous <+7 item
	say "blah blah...";
}

After choosing an item

replace:
if (level < 7) {
	say "i need the item to be +7 or higher";
	exit;
}

with:
var is_saved = (saved_item == item && saved_cards[0] == cards[0] &&
	saved_cards[1] == cards[1] && saved_cards[2] == cards[2] &&
	saved_cards[3] == cards[3] && saved_refine <= refine);
if (level < 7 && !is_saved) {
	say "i need the item to be +7 or higher";
	exit;
}
if (saved_item && (!is_saved || level >= 7)) {
	// warn that this will reset saved item
	say "if you proceed, you won't be able to use HD ores with your ...";
	// give choice to continue or cancel
}

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#2 Axylus

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:02 AM

We definitely need a system like this. I have a few things I'd like to try refining to +9 or higher but it's very wasteful to buy a large amount of HD ore as a buffer and I'm afraid of being disconnected while refining. :o

if (saved_item && (!is_saved || level >= 7)) {
        // warn that this will reset saved item
        say "if you proceed, you won't be able to use HD ores with your ...";
        // give choice to continue or cancel
}

In what situation would (saved_item && is_saved && level >= 7) be true? :P
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#3 renouille

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:27 AM

We definitely need a system like this. I have a few things I'd like to try refining to +9 or higher but it's very wasteful to buy a large amount of HD ore as a buffer and I'm afraid of being disconnected while refining. :o

if (saved_item && (!is_saved || level >= 7)) {
        // warn that this will reset saved item
        say "if you proceed, you won't be able to use HD ores with your ...";
        // give choice to continue or cancel
}

In what situation would (saved_item && is_saved && level >= 7) be true? :P


It's (saved_item && (!is_saved || level >= 7)).

"you have a saved item" and ("the saved item is not the item you're trying to upgrade now" or "the saved item is identical as far as I can tell (id/cards) to the item you're upgrading now, but is +7 or higher")

Last condition is to prevent something like:
You downgrade an uncarded dress hat to +5. You then accidentally try to upgrade a different uncarded +7 dress hat.

It'd probably make more sense if it were > (safe upgrade level for that item) though, instead of >= 7. I don't think anyone would unnecessarily risk an item, but they might reasonably opt to do +3 -> +4 (or whatever is safe) with regular ore instead.
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#4 huad

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 05:57 AM

Make single HD ores vendable/tradeable. I feel like that's a better and easier fix than tagging +7's with an eternal code.
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#5 renouille

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:02 AM

Make single HD ores vendable/tradeable. I feel like that's a better and easier fix than tagging +7's with an eternal code.

Making single HD ores vendable/tradable doesn't solve any of the problems I mentioned.
I never proposed tagging +7s with any kind of code. :o
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#6 Myzery

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:44 AM

I think this is a very reasonable and great idea.
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#7 arsn89

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:33 AM

Doing that would just reduce sales of HD ores.

When people want to +9 a item that is already +7, they buy hundreds of HD ores at a time, if they're about to run out and haven't reached their desired goal, they will leave the item at +7 and buy another 100+.

If the gms implement your system, people would only buy like 10 HD ores at a time since the fear of running out and being kicked out of the "safe mode" would be gone. Now I would love that system as the next person, but face it, iRO is a business. All they want to do is reach their quarterly profit goals and make the share holders happy. Why would they change the system when it out effectively reduce the sales of that item?
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#8 huad

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:33 AM

It would solve the issue of your leftover HD ores going to waste. You could at least sell them to other players.

I didn't read "ideally" the first time, so I apologize for misunderstanding.

Your idea is wonderful, but realistically, I just don't see it happening. Gravity isn't responsible for random acts of nature and players' bad internet connections, and it'd be unreasonable for us to expect them to be. It was nice enough already that they made the NPC show how many attempts you have left.
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#9 renouille

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

Doing that would just reduce sales of HD ores.

When people want to +9 a item that is already +7, they buy hundreds of HD ores at a time, if they're about to run out and haven't reached their desired goal, they will leave the item at +7 and buy another 100+.

If the gms implement your system, people would only buy like 10 HD ores at a time since the fear of running out and being kicked out of the "safe mode" would be gone. Now I would love that system as the next person, but face it, iRO is a business. All they want to do is reach their quarterly profit goals and make the share holders happy. Why would they change the system when it out effectively reduce the sales of that item?

Are you sure about that? Some players would indeed buy tons of extra ores for that purpose... but that number stays fairly constant. Once every hardcore upgrader has set aside that amount, iRO isn't going to sell more vs. a system that doesn't force people to buy extra ores as insurance. So yes, they might have scored some early sales, but in the meantime they're alienating all the people so put off by the whole thing that they decide they're satisfied with +7s or +4s. I'd say ultimately that is the chief determinant of sales rate.

It would solve the issue of your leftover HD ores going to waste. You could at least sell them to other players.

True, I'd forgotten about that. But are they likely to go for an idea that reduces sales without doing much to placate naysayers?

Your idea is wonderful, but realistically, I just don't see it happening. Gravity isn't responsible for random acts of nature and players' bad internet connections, and it'd be unreasonable for us to expect them to be. It was nice enough already that they made the NPC show how many attempts you have left.

What about Gravity's bad internet connection? Or misbehaving troublemakers? I sort of assumed when Heimdallr said their intention was X, that their intention really was X. In that case, wouldn't it be in their best interests and not at all unreasonable to put a little effort toward realizing that? Not only would it send the message that they do care about their players, it'd also likely reduce their support staff's workload and lure more customers who normally wouldn't bother with upgrading at all (hint hint).

I hope you were kidding about the last part. :o I'm not too impressed that they spent any time accommodating those who are too lazy to look at their inventory window... which is essentially all they've done.
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#10 Anko

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:14 PM

Doing that would just reduce sales of HD ores.

When people want to +9 a item that is already +7, they buy hundreds of HD ores at a time, if they're about to run out and haven't reached their desired goal, they will leave the item at +7 and buy another 100+.

If the gms implement your system, people would only buy like 10 HD ores at a time since the fear of running out and being kicked out of the "safe mode" would be gone. Now I would love that system as the next person, but face it, iRO is a business. All they want to do is reach their quarterly profit goals and make the share holders happy. Why would they change the system when it out effectively reduce the sales of that item?


That is really just one way to look at it. Some ppl are deterred from using the ores specifically because there is a high cost of entry and they feel they have to buy a crapload to be safe. Notice some retailers allow you to return unused items to encourage you buy more without fear of wastage since you can return them.

-----

The chat dialogue telling you how many ores you have left actually created a problem as it is inaccurate when i used it and says you ran out of ores and closes the chat when in fact you still have many ores left.
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#11 Axylus

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:18 PM

Implementing this system would also remedy the extremely annoying problem of being forced to buy HD ore in small quantities then stacking it all so it fits in your inventory (you can't hold more than 100 separate items in your inventory).

Edited by richard, 14 May 2011 - 11:00 PM.

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#12 renouille

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:42 PM

Some ppl are deterred from using the ores specifically because there is a high cost of entry and they feel they have to buy a crapload to be safe.

With my luck I don't feel safe with any amount. :o
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#13 Anko

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 02:34 AM

Implementing this system would also remedy the extremely annoying problem of being forced to buy HD ore in small quantities then stacking it all so it fits in your inventory (you can't hold more than 100 separate items in your inventory).

When i opened the boxes the other day they autostacked without needed you to need the stacker.
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#14 Axylus

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:15 AM

When i opened the boxes the other day they autostacked without needed you to need the stacker.


The boxes of HD ore didn't exist when I last used Mighty Hammer.
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#15 Ciler

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:17 AM

I sort of assumed when Heimdallr said their intention was X, that their intention really was X.

Hardly.

The intention and purpose behind every single kafra shop initiative since it was implemented has been to make money.

Note: Heim and GMs, please note that I am not saying this as if it was a bad thing, you guys DO run a business after all.

with that cleared, back to the argument as hand:

In the original setup, where ores could be used from the safe limit, then you could never lose the item (short of attempting a regular upgrade ofc). With the current setup, as you have pointed, there is a chance (if you can't reach your target value with the number of ores you have, run out of zeny, get disconnected etc), but the more ores you have, the lower that risk becomes, which is conducive to buying ores in large large amounts. And then, once you've achieved your target and have leftover ores, well you might as well try to up something else, but if you don't have too many ores, you might wanna top up to be safe (rinse and repeat).

So yeah, point is, the current system is one that:
- provides relatvely high level of safety in overupping (not 100%, sure, but high enough)
- provides for the best income/upgrade ratio.

Your system, as pointed above, would blow mass purchase of ores out of the water. You can't ignore that, and that's why your suggestion, as good as it is, is not going to get much actual consideration. imho.
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#16 renouille

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:10 AM

A successful business manages to be highly profitable without appearing to have no purpose beyond profit.

If I really, really want to upgrade something now (I don't, precisely because it's not safe), I might buy about 50 extra. Let's say I succeed and have about 40 left. Am I going to be tempted to use those on something else and repeat the cycle? No!

Let's say I make a living upgrading, and I always buy 100 extra. If I succeed quickly, that just means I have 100 less to buy next time. Unlss there's a constant influx of new hardcore upgraders (not likely), they're not making money at a faster rate. They're just opting for a fixed amount of quick cash over the higher sustained income that would come from a system with more widespread appeal.

Right now, neither of these descriptions fits me. I'm not going to bother at all with things the way they are now, and I suspect I'm far from being alone.

Maybe they're deceptively proficient at conducting cost-benefit analyses and have already calculated the optimal course of action. Maybe not. In the absence of any obvious evidence that the proposal would hurt their bottom line, I have to dismiss that line of reasoning and assume that they might at least take into consideration a suggestion that would achieve their stated intention.
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#17 arsn89

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:44 PM

A successful business manages to be highly profitable without appearing to have no purpose beyond profit.


Please explain, as a student majoring in business this is the exact opposite of what I've been thought.

Also, that is EXACTLY what the staff are doing. they're not forcing you to pay to use the service. There is not ONE item in the kafra shop that is needed in order to play the game. Everything they offer is optional and are things just to make things more convenient. They are offering you a free 100% free service if you choose no to pay a dime for any of their optional service.

Like I said in a earlier post, iRO needs to meet their financial goals each quarter. Everything they do is on a business standpoint. Do really think they made the game free to play because they were just being generous and want everybody, rich or poor, to play? NOPE. They make the majority of their profits from the kafra shop. Only a small % came from subscription. Also since all other MMOs even mainstream are being made to F2P. So to compete, they made it F2P, what that does is open the demographic making more people have access to the game, once they play they see all the benefits and goodies provided by the Kafra shop, and see how much more convenient their time at RO would be if they bought from the shop.

Also to the other people saying the current system just alienates the others who would buy them if they changed it. They are not targeting THOSE buyers. Those buyers wont give them the profits they need. They are targeting the people who are addicted with high level gears and wouldn't mind dropping 60$ to get them. The people who says "nope I'm happy with +7" are not the ones that are driving sales to begin with.

What the staff have done to the upgrading system is brilliant in a business standpoint, and don't know why they haven't thought of this sooner. They would have to be really stupid to do any changes on it. I would love to see their financial statement at the end of year and see just how much their sales has increase ever since implementing it.

All in all. iRO is dependent on the Kafra Shop. That is why it is not illegal to Sell WPE for zeny. If someone is willing to pay someone 500mill for 1000$ worth of KP why would gravity ban them?

Don't count on them even considering your script. Its perfectly fine the way it is, just being too cheap to take full advantage of it.

Edited by arsn89, 15 May 2011 - 05:04 PM.

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#18 Aeolus

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:52 PM

I like Ren's idea for many reasons.
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#19 Sera

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:59 PM

I love all the people who will argue against the most random stuff just to be contrary.
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#20 renouille

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 05:50 PM

Please explain, as a student majoring in business this is the exact opposite of what I've been thought.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Business-Rise-Conscious-Corporation/dp/0230616879

Also, that is EXACTLY what the staff are doing. they're not forcing you to pay to use the service. There is not ONE item in the kafra shop that is needed in order to play the game. Everything they offer is optional and are things just to make things more convenient. They are offering you a free 100% free service if you choose no to pay a dime for any of their optional service.

Like I said in a earlier post, iRO needs to meet their financial goals each quarter. Everything they do is on a business standpoint. Do really think they made the game free to play because they were just being generous and want everybody, rich or poor, to play? NOPE. They make the majority of their profits from the kafra shop. Only a small % came from subscription. Also since all other MMOs even mainstream are being made to F2P. So to compete, they made it F2P, what that does is open the demographic making more people have access to the game, once they play they see all the benefits and goodies provided by the Kafra shop, and see how much more convenient their time at RO would be if they bought from the shop.

I'm not oblivious to something so obvious. I suspect subscription fees from competitive Valk players exceed those from casual players/slaves as well.

Also to the other people saying the current system just alienates the others who would buy them if they changed it. They are not targeting THOSE buyers. Those buyers wont give them the profits they need. They are targeting the people who are addicted with high level gears and wouldn't mind dropping 60$ to get them. The people who says "nope I'm happy with +7" are not the ones that are driving sales to begin with.

I'm going to assume you object to my proposition that my change wouldn't hurt long-term sales. Care to explain why?

Don't count on them even considering your script. Its perfectly fine the way it is, just being too cheap to take full advantage of it.

I'm not counting on it, but I had to say it anyway. That said, I doubt the primary impetus behind their inaction has anything to do with profitability. Case in point: their refusal to do anything about spamming, even though the solution is so easy.

Incidentally, I had another suggestion for milking their "target" players.

[18:00:21] <Renouille> next time they should add account bound 4x battle manuals that only have a 10% chance of working when you use them


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#21 IronFist

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:40 PM

the one thing i found amusing was having +8 gear then having +3 gears 5 ores later... the rates seem lower then original, or maybe mighty hammer has simple scripting compared to the ordinary upgraders which have been getting nerfed for years

Ideally

HD ores should 5-7
Enriched Should 7-10

But its pay to win, and all those people with +9 and above already paided before nerfing
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#22 Axylus

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:49 PM

Please explain, as a student majoring in business this is the exact opposite of what I've been thought.

Also, that is EXACTLY what the staff are doing. they're not forcing you to pay to use the service. There is not ONE item in the kafra shop that is needed in order to play the game. Everything they offer is optional and are things just to make things more convenient. They are offering you a free 100% free service if you choose no to pay a dime for any of their optional service.

Like I said in a earlier post, iRO needs to meet their financial goals each quarter. Everything they do is on a business standpoint. Do really think they made the game free to play because they were just being generous and want everybody, rich or poor, to play? NOPE. They make the majority of their profits from the kafra shop. Only a small % came from subscription. Also since all other MMOs even mainstream are being made to F2P. So to compete, they made it F2P, what that does is open the demographic making more people have access to the game, once they play they see all the benefits and goodies provided by the Kafra shop, and see how much more convenient their time at RO would be if they bought from the shop.

Also to the other people saying the current system just alienates the others who would buy them if they changed it. They are not targeting THOSE buyers. Those buyers wont give them the profits they need. They are targeting the people who are addicted with high level gears and wouldn't mind dropping 60$ to get them. The people who says "nope I'm happy with +7" are not the ones that are driving sales to begin with.

What the staff have done to the upgrading system is brilliant in a business standpoint, and don't know why they haven't thought of this sooner. They would have to be really stupid to do any changes on it. I would love to see their financial statement at the end of year and see just how much their sales has increase ever since implementing it.

All in all. iRO is dependent on the Kafra Shop. That is why it is not illegal to Sell WPE for zeny. If someone is willing to pay someone 500mill for 1000$ worth of KP why would gravity ban them?

Don't count on them even considering your script. Its perfectly fine the way it is, just being too cheap to take full advantage of it.


You think that any profitable business practice is acceptable, even if it involves exploiting your customers? Are you kidding me? If you exploit your customers, they'll ditch your company the instant they find a better alternative, and they'll likely never do business with you again.

Do you even understand the problem with this NPC? If you're disconnected during the dialogue and your item's refine level has fallen below +7, you're screwed. Random disconnections are not uncommon on IRO, and few people have perfectly reliable Internet connections and computers. Why should customers pay double or more to mitigate a flaw in this NPC?
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#23 arsn89

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:56 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Business-Rise-Conscious-Corporation/dp/0230616879

�??In the emerging world of extreme transparency, customers and employees will trust companies that are truly making a difference in their lives. Being good will trump looking good. This book clearly outlines winning brand values and the behaviors that lead to that most precious bond: trust.�??--Stephen Quinn, Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer, Wal-Mart

ROFL, omg please try harder. Wal-mart is the number 1 retailer in the U.S because they DON'T pracice "to be highly profitable without appearing to have no purpose beyond profit."

They're pulling million of their customers with opening price points, they advertise their rock bottom prices in special displays. When people see that microwave manufactured in china for 24.99 they go "woah this is so cheap", when they go to the appliance section they now have in their heads that Wal-Mart sells all their appliances cheap. When in fact all the other microwaves are priced up incredibly higher than the Grey's Appliance down the street.

They muscle other manufacturing company to sell them their products cheaper each year or else they won't stock their items anymore, and when Wal-mart accounts for 30% of a manufacturing company's sales, they have no choice but to surrender. Please spare 15mins of your time and watch chapter 2 and 3 of:
http://www.pbs.org/w...71&continuous=1

I'm going to assume you object to my proposition that my change wouldn't hurt long-term sales. Care to explain why?

Easy, the way the system is now they are making plenty of profits from it. The demand of high upgraded armor will never disappear, and with new content coming soon, there will be even more equips to upgrade. Sure your system might not hurt long term sales, but their current system will maximize long term sales.

I'm not counting on it, but I had to say it anyway. That said, I doubt the primary impetus behind their inaction has anything to do with profitability. Case in point: their refusal to do anything about spamming, even though the solution is so easy.

That is because there are more important things on the list to take care then dealing with bot spammers. If your really bothered by it turn off your general chat when your in the market

Incidentally, I had another suggestion for milking their "target" players.

next time they should add account bound 4x battle manuals that only have a 10% chance of working when you use them


And they DID listen to you. In fact it was implemented last maint. That Red Pirate Bandana is better modified suggestion of it.


To Richard: The chances of you disconnecting the EXACT time your upgrading is a very unlikely chance. What are the chances of someone disconnecting right after killing a MVP and a card dropped from it? Should the GMs be responsible for something they had no control in?

Edited by arsn89, 15 May 2011 - 07:00 PM.

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#24 Thyrial

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 07:03 PM

The issue is the concept that upgrading should be safe, that concept should never have been introduced in any way because it was entirely against the whole point of the upgrading system in the first place. If you're going to have completely safe upgrading then they should just add an expensive ore that upgrades an item to +10 automatically because that's in essence what you're asking for here which is completely ridiculous. The real issue here is that there are some things in the game that are so ridiculous to get that breaking them is a disaster (*cough* KVM weapons *cough*) if anything should be changed it's that, not the already stupidly not risky HD ore upgrade system.
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#25 Sera

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 07:09 PM

It should be unsafe within the bounds of the game, Ren's suggestion was a protection against "acts of god" if you will.
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