11 replies to this topic

[ShedoSurashu]

A ton of bots seem to pop up every now and then to advertise their websites that sell Zeny. It's really annoying because they eat up all the chat text. It would be really handy if people could report them? How do I do that?

[Chucklet]

A ton of bots seem to pop up every now and then to advertise their websites that sell Zeny. It's really annoying because they eat up all the chat text. It would be really handy if people could report them? How do I do that?

Tickets. Send in a ticket to support under the proper (ill mannered/spamming chat abuse) departement. Make sure to include a few names and locations and the correct server and maybe some screenshots if you think that will help (in other cases, warpbots, a screenshot of a right-click menu is very helpful). Just make sure you include any and all info you can give them.

If a Gm happens to be online on the forums you can try to pm them to ask for an immediate removal, but they usually ask for a ticket number anyway, as you can also include screenshots and more info with a ticket.

[ShedoSurashu]

Tickets. Send in a ticket to support under the proper (ill mannered/spamming chat abuse) departement. Make sure to include a few names and locations and the correct server and maybe some screenshots if you think that will help (in other cases, warpbots, a screenshot of a right-click menu is very helpful). Just make sure you include any and all info you can give them.

If a Gm happens to be online on the forums you can try to pm them to ask for an immediate removal, but they usually ask for a ticket number anyway, as you can also include screenshots and more info with a ticket.

Okay, right. Thanks for the help man! BTW, does this apply to Valkyrie as well? I mean, due to the fact that Valkyrie is a free server and all...

[Chucklet]

Against populair belief bots do get wiped from Valkyrie, the biggest problem is that it is much more easier for spammers and farmers to get back in due to the fact that there is no pay-wall as a security measure (apart from massive IP-bans). This in my opinion makes it worth it to get into Ymir.
Aynyway, I am quite sure that reporting bots also works for Valkyrie every now and then they will do a sweep of the cities to get rid of spammers and their alts (usually there are many linked accounts). It is just a 24hr job and they don't have enough people for that... But according to the CM/GM's, tickets about bots have priority.

[ShedoSurashu]

Against populair belief bots do get wiped from Valkyrie, the biggest problem is that it is much more easier for spammers and farmers to get back in due to the fact that there is no pay-wall as a security measure (apart from massive IP-bans). This in my opinion makes it worth it to get into Ymir.
Aynyway, I am quite sure that reporting bots also works for Valkyrie every now and then they will do a sweep of the cities to get rid of spammers and their alts (usually there are many linked accounts). It is just a 24hr job and they don't have enough people for that... But according to the CM/GM's, tickets about bots have priority.

Hmm, I was wondering, why can't they implement a sort of a CAPTCHA system for users that popup on random occasions with varying questions? That way, bots could be somewhat lesser?

[Chucklet]

There have been hundreds (and I'm not kidding) of ideas with random things like that. It has always been shot down by users who don't want to be disturbed during leveling or w/e. It is kinda true that if such a pop-up would occur during a huge mob that it would mean instant death. Or if a mistake was made (also a good possibility with those things, especially during playing or chatting) innocent users would be banned, creating more work in the form of tickets from users who would have to explain their case to get released. It is just not a good solution if it would either hinder normal players or create even more work for the GM's. The GM team has promised a tighter bot control on several occasions (they were gonna hire more people to handle this problem actively), and some of the GM's do sacrifice their own game time to work on it, sadly it is just never enough...
The CAPTCHA thing may seem a good solution but I think it was also almost impossible to implement without making drastic changes (ie from the original Korean client) and there was a problem with the client/server sided implementation of such an option (as the CAPTCHA files would have to be present in the client files, which would mean a bot program could 'read' these options from the client, thus being able to get through that control without problems).

In my opinion, taking maybe at max 10 minutes when people are done playing to gather up all screenshots made and send in a ticket, is at the moment the best option. This, as long as these tickets are indeed used and not ignored (another point that people make when talking about bot reports). But I have seen people get banned after I sent in a ticket, so I'm quite sure they appreciate the user's efforts.

That said, on the several (anti) bot threads that have popped up on the forums over the years, I have even seen people who say some bots are good for the community (as they provide cheap supplies). This is in my opinion the worst argument ever and it are always people who haven't the slightest idea about basic economics (ie supply and demand). I am however sure that some of these people are the ones that hold back good anti-bot measures because the GM/CM may see these as valid arguments (but this is pure speculation on my side).

I'm sorry, I could write pages full when talking about bots and whatnot, so I'm gonna stop here~(edit for typos)

Edited by Chucklet, 16 May 2011 - 03:39 AM.

[ShedoSurashu]

First and foremost, I appreciate your reply. And pardon if I insist on with my ideas. I find it quite nice to have a good debate about this matter.

The CAPTCHA thing may seem a good solution but I think it was also almost impossible to implement without making drastic changes (ie from the original Korean client) and there was a problem with the client/server sided implementation of such an option (as the CAPTCHA files would have to be present in the client files, which would mean a bot program could 'read' these options from the client, thus being able to get through that control without problems).

I might have to disagree with this above statement. I'll be honest in saying that I myself have tried setting up a "private" Ragnarok Online server via open-source servers available on the net. Over the course of that time in my life, I managed to see other people successfully implement a sort of CAPTCHA in-game without having to do massive modification. They didn't even need to modify the end-client. Just the server-side script. Here's how most of them works:
After a certain instance has met / or not met, the user will be frozen and hidden from view from other players / monsters. That means, the character will appear as if it isn't actually in that spot where it is. During that phase, an NPC message window will popup telling the frozen character to type in whatever sort of verification is displayed on the NPC's message window. The character can be asked to enter a number, select from a set choice, or type a word or phrase before that character will be released from it being frozen.

As for the issue of the character accidentally typing in the wrong code because of all the hype and accidentally getting banned, this can easily be resolved by giving that character 3 or 5 max fail tries before proceeding with the kick / ban.

I believe this is fairly easy to implement on the NPC scripting area since I myself have tried to get a bare-bone implementation of it on-to the server I had before.

I'm sorry

No don't be, as I said I enjoy arguments like this that brings out a friendly debate among users.

~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~ . ~
And also, I hope I don't jeopardize my status in this forum / in-game, by stating that I once had and ran a private server.

EDIT:
And also, I wonder what happened to the GameGuard that once was present in Ragnarok Online. That supposedly prevents malicious users from modifying in-game related stuff right?

Edited by ShedoSurashu, 16 May 2011 - 05:17 AM.

[Chucklet]

I must admit that my real actual solid knowledge about the workings of such implements is pretty much 0, and I speak only from what I have heard/read/guessed However I feel confident enough to get into this, even though it's mostly just my own opinion (warning: much text ahead, and it might not make sense!)


It does sound pretty easy as you describe it and maybe the actual implementation is not really that much trouble (although the GM's have on occasion said it was). Which brings me to something I have heard, that w/e client is used by non official servers is always very different from the client in use by the official ones now. I myself would welcome anything that would truly prevent botting/spammers/farmers, but like I said not everyone will welcome such measures. Aside from the ridiculous claims that "bots make WOE supplies possible", I do see why such an interruption of game play would be irritating nonetheless... Also, I do see how you could give people a few tries to do it but I bet someone will be able to fail the test even tho they are a real player (some people never cease to amaze...).

This means I have to stand firm to the (minor) point I made about it being a hassle for non-bots. I can imagine it being pretty horrible if it activates while you are shopping/questing and it interrupting something important (maybe even actually DC'ing you due to an interrupted NPC dialog or during job change test). Or, imagine your support priest(s) getting the CAPTCHA, thus being removed from the game temporary, and your entire party wiping because he didn't get back fast enough. This would require all players on 1 map getting the CAPTCHA at the same time or something, altho that would not solve the problem since everyone completes the test at a different speed. I can also imagine it being quite irritating if your dual-cliented pure brewer/forger/linker that you have set to autofollow (aka legal ctrl-shift-rightclick command) constantly gets the CAPTCHA as well, increasing the time 1 player has to spend on doing the tests.This does depend on how the CAPTCHA activation is handled of course...

If a CAPTCHA would be implemented, it will also make a difference how it would activate, ie: after X kills, after X tile movement, after crossing certain tiles on certain maps or even after a certain time has passed or something random chosen by the server. A line would be too easily avoided, and a certain time would hinder afk players/venders. A kill count or movement count would lead back to the earlier stated hindrances. You also cannot really put a time limit on the CAPTCHA input, again for players who are afk or distracted for a moment. By saying this I actually just mean this needs a REALLY good plan before implementing such a measure.

Which reminds me of another point... Abuse.
People on iRO are KNOWN (and that really saddens me) for looking for ways to abuse the game system. kRO is actually amused at iRO for this. And it is not just finding bugs to get them reported and repaired, but actual secret abuse for personal profit. And, a system that would temporarily remove a(ll) player(s) from a certain map could be abused for uhm... taking a break during an instance or something? I myself cannot really think of abusing such a system, but in the end I'm quite sure people will look for a way to benefit from this, as it has happened too many times already. (Of course not everyone is guilty of such behavior, but it does happen)

All in all I think there are some possibilities, but it would also mean the CAPTCHA would have to be disabled in certain areas. I guess that if we maybe could implement an option to test someone via a CAPTCHA via the right click menu it would open up possibilities to get some bots banned much easier, but once again, this would be open to abuse (it would definitely need to be disabled in woe/pvp/towns), -nvm this would be too much abusable this way anyway-. Also, Gravity is not known for making changes that work the first time around, so this would need comprehensive testing/control, for which they do not have the manpower I think.

As I am not familiar with such an implementation, but would running such things slow down the servers/cause lag? I think that the original GameGuard was removed because it made logging in take about 10 times as long and it caused other errors, but I don't know much about that (no doubt someone else will correct me about this).

I am quite sure there have been topics about CAPTCHA's around here, it might be worth doing a quick search of the forums for that to see why it isn't implemented or maybe to restart the debate around it. You can always post your idea outside of tech support and in the community chat, but beware of trolls and QQ'ers. Tech support is only read by a few... All in all, I am very much in favour of any anti bot measure, even a CAPTCHA. I am just... Not sure if it is worth all the trouble (I'd rather send in a ticket for the time being, altho the support site is... Annoying). You can always send a serious idea to the CM/GM's to after doing some digging on the forums to see what they have to say about it.


And I guess it could happen that a mod removes any comment made about pservers, but I doubt it will go further than that. Just don't go advertising about it too much .

Edited by Chucklet, 16 May 2011 - 09:49 AM.

[DrAzzy]

If they are implemented without major changes to the client (I can think of a few ways to implement this), it's useless, because the correct answer could be readily derived from the client data (because there is no facility for sending an image to the client). It would only stop random people who aren't serious about botting.
On illegal private servers, the people who bot are mostly teen-age delinquents who are too lazy to play a game doing it to level their char or make z for themselves. On iRO, that's not the main botting threat. Most of those guys get banned. The problem here is professional chinese and russian "Game offices", which hire people in the developing world, where labor is cheap, to manage their botfarms and run their opperations. Any system that relied on currently existing mechanisms would be broken within a few days, and be in use by all the botters by the next week, and all that development time spent implementing it will be wasted.

And the ordinary players will now have to deal with CAPCHAs _AND_ just as many bots as before.


If they done with huge overhauls to the game client and server, they STILL WON'T WORK. All you have to do to bypass any CAPTCHA system is to just hire someone in a third world country to enter captchas all day. There are multiple companies that offer this service, complete with easy to use APIs where they can just pipe the image to a function call, and get back the answer. They guarantee high speed at completing their capchas, and bill their client something like a tenth of a cent per
capcha completed.

Moreover, this is assuming the CAPTCHA used is actually any good - many CAPTCHAs can be cracked reliably by computer algorithms now. In order to counteract that, sites are making increasingly complicated CAPTCHAs - which are getting harder and harder for humans to complete. For example, signing up for a gmail account is really hard for me - i went through a whole bunch of CAPTCHAs, and just couldn't get them right. Eventually I wound up using the audio one, which was so garbled that I couldn't get it without a few tries either. I nearly had to ask a friend to make the account for me.

CAPTCHAs are only effective where the return on completing the captcha is truly tiny. Like regging an email address you'll get a few hundred messages that you'll get a 1/10,000,000 response rate on before it gets banned (these are typical email spam response rate). The return on botting an MMO is high enough that CAPTCHAs do not work.

If you implemented CAPTCHAs on iRO, you'd have maybe a week of bot-less RO, then the bots would adapt, and you'd have CAPTCHAs _AND_ bots.

Adding CAPTCHAs would be a horrible thing for the game, because it would not solve the problem, and would make the game less user friendly.


Also, gameguard does not work against the kind of bots we have on iRO. Gameguard was an enormously bloated lag-producing piece of software (it brought my computer to it's knees when i tried a national RO that used it). And all it does is block tools that hook into the client. We don't have a problem with those kind of illegal programs on iRO right now.
The people who bot on a scale that matters use a completely separate program, and don't need to use the game client at all. So sticking gameguard to the client doesn't work; the popular bot clients have been able to bypass gameguard for at least three years... The most botted RO's in the world use gameguard, and it doesn't do a bit of good. But it does punish the legit players by slowing down their computers, giving them an incentive to run a bot or illegally modified client because of the performance problems from gameguard!

There are ways to address botting that might work - but neither of these ways will do anything other than annoy legitimate players.

Edited by DrAzzy, 16 May 2011 - 09:56 AM.

[ShedoSurashu]

I am quite sure there have been topics about CAPTCHA's around here, it might be worth doing a quick search of the forums for that to see why it isn't implemented or maybe to restart the debate around it. You can always post your idea outside of tech support and in the community chat, but beware of trolls and QQ'ers. Tech support is only read by a few... All in all, I am very much in favour of any anti bot measure, even a CAPTCHA. I am just... Not sure if it is worth all the trouble (I'd rather send in a ticket for the time being, altho the support site is... Annoying). You can always send a serious idea to the CM/GM's to after doing some digging on the forums to see what they have to say about it.

Right, I'll do that. Again, I appreciate you debating with me in this friendly argument. It lets me see other people's point of view quite clearly.

If they done with huge overhauls to the game client and server, they STILL WON'T WORK. All you have to do to bypass any CAPTCHA system is to just hire someone in a third world country to enter captchas all day. There are multiple companies that offer this service, complete with easy to use APIs where they can just pipe the image to a function call, and get back the answer. They guarantee high speed at completing their capchas, and bill their client something like a tenth of a cent per capcha completed.

Umm but I wasn't even talking about images. I just had NPC chat boxes like the one below.

It doesn't need to be that complex, it just asks the user a few humanly answerable questions.

Also, gameguard does not work against the kind of bots we have on iRO. GameGuard was an enormously bloated lag-producing piece of software (it brought my computer to it's knees when i tried a national RO that used it). And all it does is block tools that hook into the client. We don't have a problem with those kind of illegal programs on iRO right now.
The people who bot on a scale that matters use a completely separate program, and don't need to use the game client at all. So sticking gameguard to the client doesn't work; the popular bot clients have been able to bypass gameguard for at least three years... The most botted RO's in the world use gameguard, and it doesn't do a bit of good. But it does punish the legit players by slowing down their computers, giving them an incentive to run a bot or illegally modified client because of the performance problems from gameguard!

I seem to have noticed that when I played on a national Ragnarok Online server here... >_>

[Axiluvia]

Personally, what I think might really help is just an ingame /bot command.

Like now, how you can right click, and reject whispers to mute bots? Have it so you can choose "Report as spammer/bot" as an option of right clicking.


Have it so that if enough people do it, and on different accounts/ips (so it's not just one account doing it, or by accident, or whatnot), it auto-temp bans the account. I've seen people around with perma-mutes on, so it could be something similar. If it keeps happening to the same account, ban it.

That way, people could help the GMs by wandering around themselves and reporting it, and it could also help get rid of bots in the field. It's hard to take a screenshot of someone botting when they teleport away, but with a right click, you might be able to do it fast enough.

Also, this would help the playerbase feel that iRO and the GMs actually give a crap about this problem, by having players HELP with it. I know a lot of people see bots and don't bother submitting tickets because they realize it could very easily turn into a he said/she said kind of argument, and nothing would get done. So they don't bother. This way, people would have a reason to bother.

[Chucklet]

Have it so that if enough people do it, and on different accounts/ips (so it's not just one account doing it, or by accident, or whatnot), it auto-temp bans the account.

It may sound nice, but again, these kind of implements are not used due to the fact that it can be abused. Someone got killed in PvP? They will have their guild/alts/friends click on that person to get him banned for a while. Someone irritated you in woe last time? Have all your friends ban him 5 minutes before woe starts. Don't like a vendor that undercuts your prices? (stupid, but not illegal sadly) D/c him via the temp-ban command. It may sound ridiculous that such thing happen, but it's common practice for many users.
So in the end you will still need a third unbiased party to do the actual banning, changing nothing from the ticket system.

These things were already proposed a billion times. The iRO community is known worldwide for actually looking fo ways to abuse things (be it bugs, or stuff that was never intended for certain things, like this anti-bot thingie), I believe Heim once described it as the kRO devs laughing at certain request they made, because they just couldn't see how that would be needed... People should just stop cheating.

For now, just send in tickets, if you keep them to the point and polite, you may actually get a funny response now and then (I speak from experience).