33 replies to this topic

[kalayaan12345]

So basically, most guides state that mage classes need INT and DEX to get anywhere with their spells. However, in irowiki.org it says that MATK is increased with every 3 points of LUK but only every 5 points of DEX. If that's correct, wouldn't it be better to spend more points on LUK instead of DEX?

Problem is that I really can't look anywhere else besides irowiki. All stat calculators in the Internet still seem to have pre-renewal data, where LUK apparently didn't affect MATK at all. Imagine that! People put all sorts of rubbish in the Internet, but the stuff that the world really needs, such as a renewal stat calculator, is still missing.

[Fibrizzo]

http://calcxre.wushuang.ws/

It's good for calculate stats but for see damages. Third job skills formulas don't work.

[EvilLoynis]

If all you cared about was spell power then yes it looks like Luk would be better. Dex also decreases Cast Time remember.

[yvon417]

Int+Dex

[Drak231]

Dex barely decreases cast time... 99 dex = about 23% reduction

[Wizard]

True... but with high DEX you can get "near" instant cast with 98% variable cast reduction... you just have to work your way up =)... increasing DEX doesn't mean your Matk will be lowered considerable... you can replace +Matk with %Matk to boost it up and having high cast time decrease...

[TsukishiroSayuki]

Dex barely decreases cast time... 99 dex = about 23% reduction

Thats wrong... 99x0.4=39,6% reduction
I don't know where u get 23% >.>'''

[CeruleanGamer]

I prefer Luck because you get some flee and perfect dodge allowing with it besides the additional MATK. Dex is not so useful anymore because you have to deal with fixed cast time and only a few gears can get rid of that, although it's better to add more matk gear instead. Also for PvP/WoE, Warlocks should always be with a group, preferably with an AB with Secrament or Maestro with Magic Strings. =P

My build uses 80 luck and I have never complained about it ever since. I drop squishy Assassins and things of the like with my +9 Glorious. =P I leave the durable targets for others to kill or just annoy them with debuffs.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 11 July 2011 - 01:24 PM.

[EvilLoynis]

I prefer Luck because you get some flee and perfect dodge allowing with it besides the additional MATK. Dex is not so useful anymore because you have to deal with fixed cast time and only a few gears can get rid of that, although it's better to add more matk gear instead. Also for PvP/WoE, Warlocks should always be with a group, preferably with an AB with Secrament or Maestro with Magic Strings. =P

My build uses 80 luck and I have never complained about it ever since. I drop squishy Assassins and things of the like with my +9 Glorious. =P I leave the durable targets for others to kill or just annoy them with debuffs.

Remember though now with level 150 and all the stat points you get it is possible to have the following base stats:

100 Int
100 Dex
100 Luk
100 Vit
few points left over.

I think this would be VERY helpful as lets face facts getting 20 more points in Int is only worth 30 more magic attack. This would give you an all around good survivable build I think.

[Drak231]

Thats wrong... 99x0.4=39,6% reduction
I don't know where u get 23% >.>'''

castTime = (1 - SQRT((DEX * 2 + INT) / 530)) * (1 - sum_castReduction/100%) * baseCast * 0.8 + (1 - max_fixedReduction/100%) * baseCast * 0.2

baseCast = base cast-time of a skill
sum_castReduction = Sum of reduction for variable casttime (like Suffragium, Magic Strings, Isilla Card effect or Kathryne Keyron Card)
max_fixedReductrion = Highest reduction modifier of fixed casttime (for example if both Sacrament(50%) and Radius(20%) are active only Sacrament will work)

Cast-time formula from here: http://irowiki.org/w..._time#Cast_Time

As you can see from the formula, the dex only affect 80% of the cast. This is called the variable cast-time. The other 20% is called the fixed cast-time.

It's still 80% isn't? So, why shouldn't we put more than 50 dex (you could even put less)? Let's make an example at 30, 50, 75 and 99 dex. If job level is 50, than there is a +12 int job bonus and +6 dex job bonus.

At 30 dex, let's take a spell which has, for instance, 5 sec of baseCast: castTime = (1 - SQRT((36*2 + 111) / 530)) * (1 - 0/100%) * 5 * 0.8 + (1 - 0/100%) * 5 * 0.2 = 2.65 seconds

That makes a reduction of 1- (2.65/5) = 47% cast reduction

At 50 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2.41 seconds; 52% cast reduction
At 75 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2,13 seconds; 57% cast reduction
At 99 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 1,89 seconds; 62% cast reduction

Just for fun, let's see with 0 dex: castTime = 3,06 seconds; 39% cast reduction.

62%-39% = 23%

[TsukishiroSayuki]

At 30 dex, let's take a spell which has, for instance, 5 sec of baseCast: castTime = (1 - SQRT((36*2 + 111) / 530)) * (1 - 0/100%) * 5 * 0.8 + (1 - 0/100%) * 5 * 0.2 = 2.65 seconds

I did the math...

(1 - SQRT((36*2 + 111) / 530)) * 5 * 0.8 + 5 * 0.2
(1 - ((72 + 111) / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1 - (183 / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1-0.34)*4 + 1
0.66*4+1
2.64+1
TOTAL Cast Time: 3.64 NOT 2.65, u forgot of 1s from the fixed probably

That makes a reduction of 1- (2.65/5) = 47% cast reduction

again because the 1s forgoten u get it wrong.
1- (3.64/5) = 27% cast reduction

At 50 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2.41 seconds; 52% cast reduction
At 75 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2,13 seconds; 57% cast reduction
At 99 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 1,89 seconds; 62% cast reduction

Just for fun, let's see with 0 dex: castTime = 3,06 seconds; 39% cast reduction.

62%-39% = 23%

At 50 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 3.31 seconds; 33% cast reduction
At 75 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2.92 seconds; 40% cast reduction
At 99 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 2,56 seconds; 48% cast reduction

At 0 dex, with the same conditions, castTime = 4,06 seconds; 18% cast reduction

48%-18%=30%
4,06s-2.56s=1,5s less cast

Leaving all that to the side, the REASON, REAL ONE that Dex is not soo much important, is the Cast time of Warlock skill are small, about 1~6s, unlike the wizard ones, Meteor Storm and Storm gust each 12s.
Only Tetra vortex, 10s, and Comet, 17s, have bigger cast time.

Trhought i dunno what SQRT mean there mean, or if is something..,
if is nothing just to say what part is in the equation
o did cut out the (1 - 0/100%) and (1 - 0/100%), because 0/100%= 0 >.>

Edited by TsukishiroSayuki, 11 July 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Remember though now with level 150 and all the stat points you get it is possible to have the following base stats:

100 Int
100 Dex
100 Luk
100 Vit
few points left over.

I think this would be VERY helpful as lets face facts getting 20 more points in Int is only worth 30 more magic attack. This would give you an all around good survivable build I think.

But people max a stat to 120 so they wouldn't be considered balanced. They want to be better than the most in a particular area. You'll find out that 120 Int is always staple because you want more Matk possible in order for your MAtk gears to be more effective and defense piercing gear (Glorious D Staff) to become more powerful.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 12 July 2011 - 05:05 AM.

[EvilLoynis]

Leaving all that to the side, the REASON, REAL ONE that Dex is not soo much important, is the Cast time of Warlock skill are small, about 1~6s, unlike the wizard ones, Meteor Storm and Storm gust each 12s.
Only Tetra vortex, 10s, and Comet, 17s, have bigger cast time.

Well actually WLock spells are not all low cast time.

Earth Strain - Lvl 1=5 Seconds, Lvl 5=10 Seconds.(AoE gets larger with lvls)
Crimson Rock - Cast time at all levels is 10 Seconds.
Chain Lightning - Lvl 1=5 Seconds, Lvl 5=10 Seconds
Jack Frost & Frosty Mist - Cast time at all levels of BOTH are about 5 Seconds. Keep in mind though that JF sucks without FM putting freezing on them, so really looking at 10 second cast at any level when combined.

Also not sure where you get the 10 second cast time for TV as I tested this out on the Test server and got more like 15-20 seconds without stats or gear at lvl 150/50. That was using it at level 5. I didn't bother with level 1 as it just seemed pointless.


So the majority of the WL skills have a cast time of around 10 seconds unless your only casting low level skills. This means that any cast reduction would be taking away from a 8 second variable portion in which case Dex would have a decent effect.

Taken from irowiki below:

Some examples how you could reduce all variable casting time via pure stats:

530 INT
265 DEX
170 INT and 180 DEX
190 INT and 170 DEX

This means even maxing your Int & Dex with a job level 50 WL would get you

120+10 INT
120+6 DEX

Which would be 382/530 = 72% Variable Reduction, Takes that 10 second cast down to just over 4 seconds. (2 + 8/72%= 4.24)

100+10 INT
100+6 DEX

Would equal 322/530 = 61% Variable Reduction, Takes that 10 second cast down to around 5 seconds (2 + 8/61%= 5.12)


Still seems very worth at least that 100 point Dex investment to me.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 12 July 2011 - 05:41 AM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Really, once you get Magic Strings or Secrament on you, you'll hardly notice the difference between 10-11% cast time differences.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 12 July 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[EvilLoynis]

Really, once you get Magic Strings or Secrament on you, you'll hardly notice the difference between 10-11% cast time differences.

Yeah but one thing I do NOT do is make builds around always getting help from others. I like builds that can at least moderately solo most of the time. Partying only for special things or for doing things like ET or similar things.

Also was really just pointing out that you could probably use the 4 stats at 100 build and still have decent cast time and Magic Attack. 100 Luk would add to both MAtk and PDodge and Def, with the 100 Vit really helping with survivability.

[CeruleanGamer]

Well seeing that you don't have a 130+ Warlock, you'll realize Warlocks can only solo for a little while until you're gonna go beg and cry for an Archbishop or a decent party with Magic Strings to help you out since level 120-130+ mobs chip off a significant amount of your HP per attack due to Warlock's squishy HP mod.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 12 July 2011 - 06:38 PM.

[Anko]

Well seeing that you don't have a 130+ Warlock, you'll realize Warlocks can only solo for a little while until you're gonna go beg and cry for an Archbishop or a decent party with Magic Strings to help you out since level 120-130+ mobs chip off a significant amount of your HP per attack due to Warlock's squishy HP mod.

It was around 130+ that i found my warlock was really good for soloing and my stats got good. You can own nameless solo with kahii - ain't no way in hell i'm partying outside some event.

[Wizard]

Yeah but one thing I do NOT do is make builds around always getting help from others. I like builds that can at least moderately solo most of the time. Partying only for special things or for doing things like ET or similar things.

Also was really just pointing out that you could probably use the 4 stats at 100 build and still have decent cast time and Magic Attack. 100 Luk would add to both MAtk and PDodge and Def, with the 100 Vit really helping with survivability.

I do have a 150 Warlock and I have same opinion as him... just try not to rely on someone else... the difference on having high LUK and high DEX is around 7matk or so... but you get good reduction cast time with DEX... the choice is your... but everyone have different opinion depending on how their styles are...

[TsukishiroSayuki]

Well actually WLock spells are not all low cast time.

Earth Strain - Lvl 1=5 Seconds, Lvl 5=10 Seconds.(AoE gets larger with lvls)
Crimson Rock - Cast time at all levels is 10 Seconds.
Chain Lightning - Lvl 1=5 Seconds, Lvl 5=10 Seconds
Jack Frost & Frosty Mist - Cast time at all levels of BOTH are about 5 Seconds. Keep in mind though that JF sucks without FM putting freezing on them, so really looking at 10 second cast at any level when combined.

I don't know WHERE u did see that but IS wrong.
I'm lvl 106/16 Warlock and i do have Crimson Rock 5 and don't take even 5s, with Dex 77 int 92 and THAT with Bloddy Butterfly card[+25% cast time]
So, CLEARLY, where you did see IS wrong

Se the cast time in the link down
Warlock Compilation

Edited by TsukishiroSayuki, 12 July 2011 - 07:30 PM.

[EvilLoynis]

I don't know WHERE u did see that but IS wrong.
I'm lvl 106/16 Warlock and i do have Crimson Rock 5 and don't take even 5s, with Dex 77 int 92 and THAT with Bloddy Butterfly card[+25% cast time]
So, CLEARLY, where you did see IS wrong

Se the cast time in the link down
Warlock Compilation

I tested them out on the test server.
I got the WLock rebirthed and upto 150/50 but left Stat points alone. All stats were at Base 1. I was not using ANY equipment.

I DID NOT use a stop watch or anything to time it so perhaps I was off by a bit. Or perhaps the test server did not have the proper cast times.

Curious as well, Which skills did you go for right off? I got Read and Release 1 so I could mob with SGust pretty safely. Then went after FMist 2 and JFrost 1. Was planning to get CRock 1 next.

[TsukishiroSayuki]

Nah u don't use wizard skills anymore when u are warlock it's waste points get Read and Release in the start, get it only when u get Tetra vortex or Comet.

First get Jack Frost 1~5, then Crimson rock 5.

Frozen enemys take 90% damage frozen, so u freeze everything with Jack frost and then use Crimson Rock that kill all.
If u wanna really give damage Frost mist 2~5[more chance to freeze higher level], then jack frost 5 then Crimson Rock 5, if the enemys are not Water is pretty much WILL kill it,but pretty much u wont need this second choice. ^^

Jack frost have cast time 2.5s, Crimson Rock 6s total kill time 8.5s, storm gust cast time: 12s
Even if u use Frost mist 2s + Jack Frost 2.5s + Crimson Rock 6s, total 10.5s still faster than Storm Gust

I'm not counting AMP, that helps, and use AMP only when u cast Crimson Rock.

Edited by TsukishiroSayuki, 13 July 2011 - 07:26 PM.

[Anko]

I did find myself using SG in nameless 3. The cast time is longer than CR but if you store it and release it that becomes a non-issue. The damage of sg 10 is actually higher than CR on targets which do not freeze. The aftercast delay is only slightly longer than CR. The reason i stored sg instead of CR is because i could store many sg but only around 2 CRs. I tend to only release in ni3 if i have a big mob so the stored spells last me a while and i will re-store them after my manual runs out.

Otherwise jack frost and amp cr or amp cr alone and finishing with soul expansion is what i tend to use in ni3.

[TsukishiroSayuki]

The reason i stored sg instead of CR is because i could store many sg but only around 2 CRs.

Storm Gust take 10 slots, Crimson Rock 12, so u get 3 storm Gust or 2 Crimson Rock.

And against unFrozen enemys u just need Frost mist 5 so they Freezee, and then use Jack Frost no stop, because the freezee status stays for 10s
u can throw about 3 jack frost with full damage then repeat if they still alive.

And your forget something each storm gust from the release or not, have 5 sec duration each, if u do 3 = 15s and they are NOT AMPed.
Warlock skill have almost none duration time too, and warlock skill have a wider range.

Edited by TsukishiroSayuki, 14 July 2011 - 09:11 PM.

[Anchors]

I did the math...

(1 - SQRT((36*2 + 111) / 530)) * 5 * 0.8 + 5 * 0.2
(1 - ((72 + 111) / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1 - (183 / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1-0.34)*4 + 1
0.66*4+1
2.64+1
TOTAL Cast Time: 3.64 NOT 2.65, u forgot of 1s from the fixed probably

[...]

Trhought i dunno what SQRT mean there mean, or if is something..,
if is nothing just to say what part is in the equation
o did cut out the (1 - 0/100%) and (1 - 0/100%), because 0/100%= 0 >.>

No offense, but how can you claim valid calculation if you don't know what all the operations are? SQRT is common shorthand for square root. As such...

(1 - SQRT((36*2 + 111) / 530)) * 5 * 0.8 + 5 * 0.2
(1 - SQRT((72 + 111) / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1 - SQRT(183 / 530)) * 4 + 1
(1-0.59)*4 + 1
0.41*4+1
1.64+1 = 2.64

The original calculation by EL was correct. The fact that there was a difference of 1 between your answer and his was coincidence. The actual difference is very slightly less than 1 (about 0.97 in fact).
(Spoiler for analysis)

Spoiler

For x = (Int Ã? 2 + Dex)/530, {x | 0 â?¤ x â?¤ 1},
sum_castReduction = 0,
baseCast = 5 sec,
& max_fixedReduction = 0...

Correct formula with the square root:
(1-sqrt(x))*5*0.8+5*0.2 = 4*(1-sqrt(x))+1

... = 5-4*sqrt(x)


Incorrect formula without the square root:
(1-x)*5*0.8+5*0.2 = 4*(1-x)+1

... = 5-4x


Difference between incorrect & correct = y
y = 5 - 4x - (5 - 4*sqrt(x))
y = 5 - 4x - 5 + 4*sqrt(x)
y = 4*sqrt(x) - 4x

y = 4*(sqrt(x)-x)

Subbing in Int = 36 and Dex = 111...
x = (36*2+111)/530 = 183/530

x = 0.345283...


... and calculating for the difference y yields y~0.97.

Also, regarding SG vs CR at NI3, do knockback effects affect the monsters there? If so, SG will grant higher survivability than FM/JF plus capacity for handling larger mobs. Also, it seems like SG would be the more appropriate spell to store there since the cast time is dramatically longer than CR's... no?

[Anko]

Storm Gust take 10 slots, Crimson Rock 12, so u get 3 storm Gust or 2 Crimson Rock.

And against unFrozen enemys u just need Frost mist 5 so they Freezee, and then use Jack Frost no stop, because the freezee status stays for 10s
u can throw about 3 jack frost with full damage then repeat if they still alive.

And your forget something each storm gust from the release or not, have 5 sec duration each, if u do 3 = 15s and they are NOT AMPed.
Warlock skill have almost none duration time too, and warlock skill have a wider range.

That is weird regarding the slots since i could only store 2 CRs but i could store 5 SGs.

What you say about FM is true, it's just in nameless 3 the necros don't get the freezing status so the damage from JF is kinda crap and soul expansion would be higher dps. I just use fm or jf to aggro all the stuff on screen.

That is true about sg but i find it nice as it freezes all the banshees and flame skulls while finishing the necros and zombies after my initial amped CR. That, and after casting CR you are still under reuse delay for CR but can immediately release an SG.

Also, regarding SG vs CR at NI3, do knockback effects affect the monsters there? If so, SG will grant higher survivability than FM/JF plus capacity for handling larger mobs. Also, it seems like SG would be the more appropriate spell to store there since the cast time is dramatically longer than CR's... no?

The necros and zombies don't suffer knockback but it keeps the banshees and flame skulls frozen. I tend to just tele from those.