27 replies to this topic

[firzen]

This isn't right.

[TrueMaster]

uh, i believe every classes job bonuses are more when they are job lvl 70 trans.

[Ralis]

^ this.

[Mwrip]

I'm not sure WHY 3rd jobs get less points (or why they don't all get the same number), but it's true, everyone has to deal with this.

I really think the 3rd job bonuses should at least match the trans 2nd ones, but with stats not being as significant as they used to be, this isn't nearly as large of an issue as it initially appears to be.

[Hacks]

honestly, i'd rather stay a sinx and go 150 as that than be forced to become GX and have lower stats for it. theres just too much stupid in this game since renewal.... and wth are these retarded emoticons doing

nevermind i dont want to know

[Ralis]

Well it can't be rape, because they're both smiling, if that's what you were thinking...

[Caelum]

Job 50 bonuses for Wizard

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
1     8     1     12    6     2

Job 50 bonuses for High Wizard (not job 70 for proper comparison)

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
2     5     3     13    7     2

Job 50 bonuses for Warlock

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
1     5     4     11    6     1

Actually, the overall bonuses for Warlock are worse than High Wiz and Wizard...Quite sad actually

No idea if this applies to every class (I'm not going to compare every little thing) but if it does, it really shows how haphazardly Renewal was thrown together.


Edit:
Just for the sake of argument, we can look at the assassin line as well

Job 50 bonuses for Assassin

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
6     10    2     4     8     0

Job 50 bonuses for Assassin Cross (again, not 70 for proper comparison)

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
7     12    2     0     5     7

Job 50 bonuses for Guillotine Cross

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
6     7     5     4     7     0

Assassin -> GX = downgrade
Assassin Cross -> GX = HUGE downgrade (granted, 3rd classes are balanced with the assumption and basis that players don't trans, but it's still weak compared to the bonuses of the Assassin)

Edited by Caelum, 24 May 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[Ralis]

I don't mind it so much since we get enough skills to make up for the loss of a few points. The problem is with brewers and forgers... Better rates as a trans class rather than doing the work to get to max job level 3rd class.

[Sera]

I've said this many times before but no one seems to want to listen.

Korea was supposed to develop more job levels for the third classes which would eventually correct these disparities and give them a chance to even out some of the inequalities. I think Heim hinted that some of the classes that are 'bad' now actually had better skills in the works, or something to that effect.

But the problem is... they haven't actually really done anything along those lines yet.

[Pril]

Your base stats can go up to a maximum of 120. More than enough to compensate for job bonus change. The differences are quite negligible, anyways.

[TrueMaster]

just that damn upgrade weapon skill is the only one that is truly job dependent. other than that going third would bring you better rates undoubtedly if there was no marionette control off a high lvl Maestro/wanderer. without that you would easily be able to boast the lesser stats to compensate with the job dependent part of the equation. Renewal pretty much moved out of the pure forger brewer builds to the more any one can do some what decent. the builds are still possible but just not practical for the little benefit they bring.

as for the 3rd should get more stat points off jobs part. The game is already off balance as it is and you want to OP max lvl more? i think they figured we gave you 50 extra base lvls so they don't need as much job bonuses. pre renewal it was base lvl 65-70 by the time you got your tans 1st class to job 50. so now that's at least 5-10 extra levels comparative to the 65-70 to 99 which usually around job 67-68 and you get to put the stats anywhere you want which should equal some of your bonuses granted they are not the ones 101-120.

[Sera]

No, I'm not proposing that they add more job levels, I'm saying that they intended to do that.

[TrueMaster]

Wasn't really talking to you I was talking to the op. Be cool to see some more job skill quests tho in the future, although they never even got around to doing any trans ones. they always gota limit you with the job levels compared to the skills so you cant have all of the skills in an all around char.

[Sera]

Well, the implication is...

I *think* they were going to expand the job level cap to around 70 for third class characters, with a second set of skills also being implemented which build on some of the dead-end skill trees currently implemented. (If I recall correctly, which I may not, this was from a mechanic skill discussion thread. Heim said something like the reason that forging / axe skill tree kind of sucks right now is because a lot of the axe stuff was intended as pre-reqs and the forging thing would be resolved with the addition of more job levels in the future. Don't quote me on that, but it was something close to it.)

As for actual real results to move the game in this direction, there's been pretty much nothing though, so I bet it will just end up being like those unimplemented second-class/trans skills that were actually implemented five years later as third-class skills, if we ever get them at all.

Edited by Sera, 24 May 2011 - 10:58 PM.

[TrueMaster]

lol, sounds like a cool add on tho. Something sort of unique to go along with ragnarok's unique style. sort of like an unlocking of the hidden potential of the 3rd class character in some future patch. Would of been neat if the new line of sprites such as the rk one would of went along with this idea. would be hard to implement that all at the same time but worth it for the job 70 fixes.

Gona be interesting to see what they do in the future of this game seeing how its already graphically outdated and still has content coming. I always wanted to see a game like this drawn out to its maximum potential but still keep the same graphics.

[Ralis]

If they're already broken as is, I tremble at the sheer thought of what this 'true potential' might be. >_>

Edited by Ralis, 24 May 2011 - 11:21 PM.

[Sera]

Well, the way I would do it is just give the strong classes more 'filler' skills, but add some stronger skills to some of the underpowered classes or flesh out their utility a little bit.

Honestly though, from what I've seen, I don't think this is going to happen, and gravity is just going to retcon the older skills with new half-assed mechanics, if they even do anything at all.

Edited by Sera, 24 May 2011 - 11:26 PM.

[Charon]

Yes whoever was making the job bonuses needs to be sacked immediately.

Stats may not have such a big impact as in old times,
but this is one of those details that show you if the people making this game like what they're doing.
The current job bonuses are stupid beyond comprehension.

An old post of mine:

Talking about job bonuses.. they are lame.
You can actually see that whoever was doing those, was lazier than a sloth:

Spoiler

AB 5 4 5 8 6 0 - 28
RA 2 8 5 8 6 0 - 29
WL 1 5 4 10 6 1 - 27
ME 6 3 7 5 3 5 - 29
GC 6 7 5 4 7 0 - 29
RK 3 3 5 10 7 3 - 31

SU 6 7 5 4 7 0 - 29 = GC
MA 5 4 5 8 6 0 - 28 = AB
WN 2 8 5 8 6 0 - 29 = RA
SO 3 3 5 10 7 3 - 31 = RK
GE 1 5 3 11 6 1 - 27 ~ WL (1 less vit for 1 more INT than warlock..THAT MAKES SENSE)
SC 6 3 7 5 3 5 - 29 = ME
RG 6 2 5 9 6 2 - 30 = unique LOL

All of the 3-2 ones are mixed copy pasted boni of 3-1 classes. Except for Royal Guard, because they had no 7th 3-1 to copy from *facepalm*
And what the hell is with the varying sum? 2nd cls all had 30 total, 1st 18, trans 45.
Half of them are totally the opposite you would expect for their class.

Anyways, since this is bout GX lets compare its job bonus with a regular nontrans Assassin:
AS 6 10 2 4 8 0 - 30
GC 6 7 5 4 7 0 - 29

Beside the higher sum as 2nd class, its AGI got lowered by 3...
And it's not even the best example.
Shadow Chasers AGI and DEX go from the best as rogue, 7, to the lowest as shadow chaser, 3, ingenious ...

1st cls have 18 total
2nd cls have 30 total
trans have 45 total

3rd cls have 27-31 total
this should really say: 3rd cls have 42 total, which is the logical continuation, or even only 35, just give them more than freakin 2nd cls.

It may not be a big deal, but why not take them out of the game then if you don't give a damn about them.

I mean, COME ON
it's not like any player couldn't come up with way better ones for all 3rd classes in 10 minutes without being paid for it!

EDIT:
I took some time figuring what would suit 3rd cls, feeding my homun on the side and stuff.
I tried staying true to the original 2nd classes, only lowering anything in exceptional situations, while considering that some stats gained importance for them after becoming 3rd cls (like KN->RK INT 0->6 for now also being into magic etc)

Spoiler

3-1
AB 6 5 8 9 7 7 - 42
RA 5 9 3 7 12 6 - 42
WL 2 8 4 15 10 3 - 42
ME 10 4 8 4 12 4 - 42
RK 10 4 13 6 7 2 - 42
GC 7 14 3 5 7 6 - 42
3-2
SU 11 9 9 5 5 3 - 42
MA 4 9 7 6 11 5 - 42
WN 2 11 6 7 9 7 - 42
SO 5 7 7 12 8 3 - 42
GE 7 8 4 9 10 4 - 42
RG 9 4 10 9 4 6 - 42
SC 7 10 7 6 10 2 - 42

This is kinda off-topic, but there is no subforum where this would fit any better, unless there was a GeneralStuffInRenewal one or so.

Edited by Charon, 25 May 2011 - 12:36 AM.

[AtlasThunderbeef]

Why should you have more job points at job 50 third class than job points at job 70 trans?

That doesn't match in my head. The way it is now looks fine to me.

[Hrothmund]

Well, the way I would do it is just give the strong classes more 'filler' skills, but add some stronger skills to some of the underpowered classes or flesh out their utility a little bit.

Honestly though, from what I've seen, I don't think this is going to happen, and gravity is just going to retcon the older skills with new half-assed mechanics, if they even do anything at all.

They probably decided they'd just save those skill ideas for 4th classes/expanded classes, like how hallucination walk was originally going to be a sinx skill but was aborted and given to GX's 5 (?) years later.

[Charon]

Why should you have more job points at job 50 third class than job points at job 70 trans?

That doesn't match in my head. The way it is now looks fine to me.

Read again.
3rd class have WORSE JOB BONUSES THAN 2ND CLASS, not trans.

[firzen]

I never said warlocks were the only ones who had to go through this, just the only one I noticed. *Sigh* It isn't right regardless of class. you people.

Also, what Ralis said. I got a pureforge BS who can't 3rd class. wtf?

and 3rd should have more bonus than trans because well, it's third class. If anything, I think job bonuses should be kept as a person upgrades and just added on to (reset at trans though). Obviously there wouldnt be as large bonuses per class but the point remains

[Wizard]

is it possible to be trans from 1 class and then go 3rd job from another? I heard quite ago that was possible somehow...

[asayuu]

Well, well... I'm curious to compare stuff too.

But well, we got one huge SP drop when going Dancer/Gypsy -> Wanderer. Okay, we have Voice Lessons to recover part of the lost sp, but...

Okay, I think the +16 DEX bonus that gypsies have was too absurd. [Note: Gypsies can still IC in USRC client]. Then I wanted to check the same table to my cute classes~

Job 50 bonuses for the Dancer.

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
2     7     3     5     5     8

Job 50 bonuses for Gypsy (not job 70 for proper comparison)

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
5     8     1     3     13     1

Job 50 bonuses for Wanderer

Str   Agi   Vit   Int   Dex   Luk
2     8     5     8     6     0

Oh yes, our DEX bonus got halved~~~~~~~ And the second weird thing. We had only DS and AV as the attacking resorts. And one very high SP pool, which got decreased when we changed to third class. [And our skill are more costly now~]

Even so, yes. We have the extra base points, and some more stuff when reaching the third class, so some of these extra points are pointless. [Point, point, point~]

But yes. A third class being [job-wise] weaker than a second one is something very weird. Well, they have the gear, so this way is [someway] balanced, when you just talk about points.

[TrueMaster]

this thread is kinda pointless. The only people this effects is the ones up to around base 120. Yes i know it is horrible to get weaker when you change from trans to third but come on at least they gave you more base levels. Go out and level and forget about the extra job stat points.

If they're already broken as is, I tremble at the sheer thought of what this 'true potential' might be. >_>

well yeah right now the game is janky because we are on renewal mechanics with all pre-renewal content. Once we get some more episodes, balance issues fixed, and more non pre-renewal content things will pick up again. The only problem is we have to hold on that long for those things to happen.

Edited by TrueMaster, 25 May 2011 - 09:28 AM.