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#251 Bronx

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:05 PM

I disagree. Suras may appear to be skillful, but it is a matter of perspective. One might see a Sura snap around, CC groups of people, and 1HKO with Gfist and GoH, and due to the class's overwhelming effectiveness, deem this player as "skilled." Another way to look at it, is the same Sura doing the exact same maneuvers, and someone might see it as "cheap." While the Sura's actions were effective, that does not make that person "skilled." It has been the general conclusion that the Sura class is a low risk, high reward type of playstyle. This means that, through knowledge and proper applications of the game's current mechanics, one could dominate the game from a PvP/WoE stand point, without neccessarily outplaying thier competiton. Suras, as they are now, are too good for the game in which they inhabit. Here is why I feel this way:

1) They can easily hawk down any class with thier unparalleled maneuverability. There really is no escape when a Sura sets his eyes on a certain target. Sure, Mechanics and Thief Class get backslides, but those can't really compare to the freedom and ease at which a Sura snaps around. Using snap, a Sura has the ability to escape battles unscathed, or rush into the battle uncontested. They can avoid alot of damage by simply snapping away, a luxury that most simply don't have. Snap has way too much upside, and has no drawbacks at all.

2) Gfist, before Renewal, was countered by high upgraded Valk Manteaus on melees for reflect. You would usually double KO with the Champion with just an Immune Valk Manteau. The problem with Renewal, is that Sura HP is so high compared to before, that they can actually live thier reflected damage on Valk Mant wearing opponents, while also killing thier target with Gfist. The only class that can consistantly kill a Sura through Gfist Reflect is the RG. Before, the Champion had to carefully choose it's targets and properly judge thier max SP when fisting, to avoid double KO'ing, but now in Renewal, they are basically free to fist anything that is not an RG, without the threat of a reflect death. I have even went as far as equiping a high upgraded Valk Manteau, non carded for more damage, Alice Valk Shield for more damage, no CK, no Beret, and a Filir hat for good measure, and the Sura was easily able to live my Reflect damage, while still killing my character with Gfist. My main problem with Gfist is not the damage of the skill, but the fact that thier HP is high enough that Valk Manteau is no threat at all , unless you're playing an RG.

3) Thier HP is too high, considering how good the class actually is. I mean, they already have the unparalleled maneuverabilty we talked about earlier, the ability to instantly stop multiple targets in thier tracks, burst damage for days, Pneuma is the closest thing this game has to a "block" button, but they also had to have some of the highest hp in the game. I believe that in order to properly balance a character, you have to give it varied strengths and weaknesses. Whatever the Sura's weaknesses are, they sure are easily overshadowed by their great Strengths. If you look at the stronger characters in other games, Akuma in the Street Fighter Alpha series, Dark Phoenix in MvC3, they are able to do huge amounts of damage, but as a drawback, take alot of damage as well. I believe that in order to properly balance the Sura, in Ragnarok Online, you must start with nerfing his HP, or else you end up with a game where 3/4 of the cast can easily be replaced by an army of Sura.

4) Putting all of these qualities into 1 character, high damage, great maneuverability, pneuma, buffs/heals, pretty useful supportive buffs, above average hp, instant AoE snare, is what makes the Sura OP. It's not just 1 or 2 two qualities that makes this class OP, it's the combination of everything, on the same character. Sura players don't get the respect from the rest of the community, because they are basically racing Porche 911's against stock Hondas. You get no props for doing what you're doing, because it is just flat out easier to play and succeed as a Sura, giving thier tremendous upside, and almost non exhistant drawbacks.

Edited by Bronx, 31 May 2011 - 06:12 PM.

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#252 Myzery

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:10 PM

Eh, it's hard to change people's minds. AT LEAST WYRD AND AEOLUS KNOW!
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#253 Myzery

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:13 PM

I disagree. Suras may appear to be skillful, but it is a matter of perspective. One might see a Sura snap around, CC groups of people, and 1HKO with Gfist and GoH, and due to the class's overwhelming effectiveness, deem this player as "skilled." Another way to look at it, is the same Sura doing the exact same maneuvers, and someone might see it as "cheap." While the Sura's actions were effective, that does not make that person "skilled." It has been the general conclusion that the Sura class is a low risk, high reward type of playstyle. This means that, through knowledge and proper applications of the game's current mechanics, one could dominate the game from a PvP/WoE stand point, without neccessarily outplaying thier competiton. Suras, as they are now, are too good for the game in which they inhabit. Here is why I feel this way:

1) They can easily hawk down any class with thier unparalleled maneuverability. There really is no escape when a Sura sets his eyes on a certain target. Sure, Mechanics and Thief Class get backslides, but those can't really compare to the freedom and ease at which a Sura snaps around. Using snap, a Sura has the ability to escape battles unscathed, or rush into the battle uncontested. They can avoid alot of damage by simply snapping away, a luxury that most simply don't have. Snap has way too much upside, and has no drawbacks at all.

2) Gfist, before Renewal, was countered by high upgraded Valk Manteaus on melees for reflect. You would usually double KO with the Champion with just an Immune Valk Manteau. The problem with Renewal, is that Sura HP is so high compared to before, that they can actually live thier reflected damage on Valk Mant wearing opponents, while also killing thier target with Gfist. The only class that can consistantly kill a Sura through Gfist Reflect is the RG. Before, the Champion had to carefully choose it's targets and properly judge thier max HP when fisting, to avoid double KO'ing, but now in Renewal, they are basically free to fist anything that is not an RG, without the threat of a reflect death. I have even went as far as equiping a high upgraded Valk Manteau, non carded for more damage, Alice Valk Shield for more damage, no CK, no Beret, and a Filir hat for good measure, and the Sura was easily able to live my Reflect damage, while still killing my character with Gfist. My main problem with Gfist is not the damage of the skill, but the fact that thier HP is high enough that Valk Manteau is no threat at all , unless you're playing an RG.

3) Thier HP is too high, considering how good the class actually is. I mean, they already have the unparalleled maneuverabilty we talked about earlier, the ability to instantly stop multiple targets in thier tracks, burst damage for days, Pneuma is the closest thing this game has to a "block" button, but they also had to have some of the highest hp in the game. I believe that in order to properly balance a character, you have to give it varied strengths and weaknesses. Whatever the Sura's weaknesses are, they sure are easily overshadowed by their great Strengths. If you look at the stronger characters in other games, Akuma in the Street Fighter Alpha series, Dark Phoenix in MvC3, they are able to do huge amounts of damage, but as a drawback, take alot of damage as well. I believe that in order to properly balance the Sura, in Ragnarok Online, you must start with nerfing his HP, or else you end up with a game where 3/4 of the cast can easily be replaced by an army of Sura.

4) Putting all of these qualities into 1 character, high damage, great maneuverability, pneuma, buffs/heals, pretty useful supportive buffs, above average hp, instant AoE snare, is what makes the Sura OP. Sura players don't get the respect from the rest of the community, because they are basically racing Porche 911's against stock Hondas. You get no props for doing what you're doing, because it is just flat out easier to play and succeed as a Sura, giving thier tremendous upside, and almost non exhistant drawbacks.


You're really biased and it shows. If you think a Sura is all about killing, I can't really say anything else, because that alone speaks volumes.
Good Suras do get respect and are really appreciated by their guilds.
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#254 Bronx

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:34 PM

Sura isn't all about killing, but think about it. What is thier job classification? Killer. Sure they can semi support with buffs and Pneuma, and disable with CC, but walk into any WoE castle on Ymir and you will see these so called "skilled" Suras going, "Oh look, a person, Gfist!" repeating for 2 hours, two days a week. There's really not much strategy or skill involved, just abuse of the OP Sura class. Suras are looked at as cheesey characters because of the sheer ease at which they go about thier business.

You don't have to agree with me. It is not my intention to sway others from thier view points. I am merely stating my opinion about the class. I also play Sura, so I can't really be biased. I like my Sura, but I can't argue the fact that they are OP'd. The class needs some nerfs to bring it back down to earth, because as it stands now, fighting against a group of Sura is like fighting a gang of Super Heros. A little bit of class balancing wouldn't hurt the game. I'm sure alot of people would enjoy the game more if player skill counted as much as class selection.

Edited by Bronx, 31 May 2011 - 06:55 PM.

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#255 Aeolus

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:57 PM

I disagree. Suras may appear to be skillful, but it is a matter of perspective. One might see a Sura snap around, CC groups of people, and 1HKO with Gfist and GoH, and due to the class's overwhelming effectiveness, deem this player as "skilled." Another way to look at it, is the same Sura doing the exact same maneuvers, and someone might see it as "cheap." While the Sura's actions were effective, that does not make that person "skilled." It has been the general conclusion that the Sura class is a low risk, high reward type of playstyle. This means that, through knowledge and proper applications of the game's current mechanics, one could dominate the game from a PvP/WoE stand point, without neccessarily outplaying thier competiton. Suras, as they are now, are too good for the game in which they inhabit. Here is why I feel this way:

1) They can easily hawk down any class with thier unparalleled maneuverability. There really is no escape when a Sura sets his eyes on a certain target. Sure, Mechanics and Thief Class get backslides, but those can't really compare to the freedom and ease at which a Sura snaps around. Using snap, a Sura has the ability to escape battles unscathed, or rush into the battle uncontested. They can avoid alot of damage by simply snapping away, a luxury that most simply don't have. Snap has way too much upside, and has no drawbacks at all.

2) Gfist, before Renewal, was countered by high upgraded Valk Manteaus on melees for reflect. You would usually double KO with the Champion with just an Immune Valk Manteau. The problem with Renewal, is that Sura HP is so high compared to before, that they can actually live thier reflected damage on Valk Mant wearing opponents, while also killing thier target with Gfist. The only class that can consistantly kill a Sura through Gfist Reflect is the RG. Before, the Champion had to carefully choose it's targets and properly judge thier max SP when fisting, to avoid double KO'ing, but now in Renewal, they are basically free to fist anything that is not an RG, without the threat of a reflect death. I have even went as far as equiping a high upgraded Valk Manteau, non carded for more damage, Alice Valk Shield for more damage, no CK, no Beret, and a Filir hat for good measure, and the Sura was easily able to live my Reflect damage, while still killing my character with Gfist. My main problem with Gfist is not the damage of the skill, but the fact that thier HP is high enough that Valk Manteau is no threat at all , unless you're playing an RG.

3) Thier HP is too high, considering how good the class actually is. I mean, they already have the unparalleled maneuverabilty we talked about earlier, the ability to instantly stop multiple targets in thier tracks, burst damage for days, Pneuma is the closest thing this game has to a "block" button, but they also had to have some of the highest hp in the game. I believe that in order to properly balance a character, you have to give it varied strengths and weaknesses. Whatever the Sura's weaknesses are, they sure are easily overshadowed by their great Strengths. If you look at the stronger characters in other games, Akuma in the Street Fighter Alpha series, Dark Phoenix in MvC3, they are able to do huge amounts of damage, but as a drawback, take alot of damage as well. I believe that in order to properly balance the Sura, in Ragnarok Online, you must start with nerfing his HP, or else you end up with a game where 3/4 of the cast can easily be replaced by an army of Sura.

4) Putting all of these qualities into 1 character, high damage, great maneuverability, pneuma, buffs/heals, pretty useful supportive buffs, above average hp, instant AoE snare, is what makes the Sura OP. It's not just 1 or 2 two qualities that makes this class OP, it's the combination of everything, on the same character. Sura players don't get the respect from the rest of the community, because they are basically racing Porche 911's against stock Hondas. You get no props for doing what you're doing, because it is just flat out easier to play and succeed as a Sura, giving thier tremendous upside, and almost non exhistant drawbacks.


First things first learn the skills of a sura if you want to come into this argument with valid points please. If you CC a mob of people you can't just Gfist afterwards. If people are moving around when you CC you can't just gfist afterwards unless they are right next to you (which is rare.)


1.) I agree snap is pretty nice for a sura.

2.) So you think that one piece of gear should be able to disable a whole class? Not only is it just a piece of gear its a garment that everyone has their hands on now. Actually I have to fear people more so now than pre-renewal with valk mants, a) because they can easily get a +9, :( everyone else that can wear a valk mant for reflect also has a lot higher health. And a good sura should be able to guess how much sp they need in order to kill the opponent without killing themselves and believe me it comes close...especially with RG's. In fact sometimes there is no other way to kill an RG other than just over doing it.

3.) Are you joking? GoH one of a suras main skills is based off of HP...if they're gonna nerf HP they need to look into the GoH formula. Sura's don't have that high of HP as it is anyways. Other classes just need a buff to their HP.

4.) You're just stating your points over and over again. We get it already you think Suras are op for those reasons.

Sura isn't all about killing, but think about it. What is thier job classification? Killer. Sure they can semi support with buffs and Pneuma, and disable with CC, but walk into any WoE castle on Ymir and you will see these so called "skilled" Suras going, "Oh look, a person, Gfist!" repeating for 2 hours, two days a week. There's really not much strategy or skill involved, just abuse of the OP Sura class. Suras are looked at as cheesey characters because of the sheer ease at which they go about thier business.

You don't have to agree with me. It is not my intention to sway others from thier view points. I am merely stating my opinion about the class. I also play Sura, so I can't really be biased. I like my Sura, but I can't argue the fact that they are OP'd. The class needs some nerfs to bring it back down to earth, because as it stands now, fighting against a group of Sura is like fighting a gang of Super Heros. A little bit of class balancing wouldn't hurt the game. I'm sure alot of people would enjoy the game more if player skill counted as much as class selection.


This is why your alliance always loses...you guys don't get your classes to do the right roles. You have your suras going off to just 1 man the stone which is not possible. Why not instead get them to CC groups of people? Do you know how much effort it takes to actually get a CC line going with all of our suras? We have to guess just about when you guys are going to pop out of CC and judge that correctly. If we don't you'll just spread out (which should have been what you were doing to begin with.) I don't know how you think the class is so easy...


Look even though some of what you're saying has some truth there ARE other classes that have OP tendencies as well. As far as Sura's having no drawbacks...I want to see you output the rest of the people you didn't CC...I want to see you try to CC people that are moving around constantly. I want to see you try to get close enough to gfist someone that is skilled and not have them hide...I want to see you fumble with all of your gear just to get a fist off. I want to see you actually 1 shot anyone but an AB or Warlock even with Megs and bryn with GoH.(You may die because you don't have the right gear for it...not my fault.) The list goes on...

Edited by Aeolus, 31 May 2011 - 07:01 PM.

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#256 veteran2003

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:57 PM

Anyone with 6-7 missing fingers in a war accident and a Medula Oblongata can play a Sura. I have one and I would know. Sura is a champion with more spheres, and it's actually harder to play a champion than a sura, because of the lack of skills a champion has compared to sura.
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#257 Viri

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 08:04 PM

Anyone with 6-7 missing fingers in a war accident and a Medula Oblongata can play a Sura. I have one and I would know. Sura is a champion with more spheres, and it's actually harder to play a champion than a sura, because of the lack of skills a champion has compared to sura.


Someone give me a sura on valk, I bet I kill you 100/100 fights. I won't even wear gear aside from a weapon.
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#258 ybfga102

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 08:25 PM

Isn't it funny that sura supposed to be so OP that no other class can stand against it? And then vet provide lots of SS about him killing people. So sura isn't all that almighty and a monkey can play it by pressing 3 buttons as he claims. Isn't sura supposed to be the only class with a super OP 1HKO skill that NO OTHER class have? And of course he repeatly claims he 1 shot those sura. You are so full crap and contradict yourself every other post.
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#259 HayrohsLegacy

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 01:58 AM

Suras are not the only class that can 1 shot ppl, since Renewal most of the classes now can do 1 shot ppl in mobs.

G Fist isnt scary if you know how to play against it or use good strategy, and its only "1 target" and needs Zen/spheres+Fury to cast. I played almost all classes and "there are" AOEs worse than G Fist, either its meant to kill ppl or disable em in groups. I dont say these AOEs are "OP" because the player knows well how to improve the skill's damage and makes em effective "AOE killers" deadlier than Suras...

And even Pre-Renewal, Champion class already has G Fist, Id rather focus on "3rd class skills" improvement/balancing and let the trans and lower jobs skills as it is...

Edited by HayrohsLegacy, 01 June 2011 - 02:01 AM.

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#260 Lilp

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:08 PM

Sura isn't all about killing, but think about it. What is thier job classification? Killer. Sure they can semi support with buffs and Pneuma, and disable with CC, but walk into any WoE castle on Ymir and you will see these so called "skilled" Suras going, "Oh look, a person, Gfist!" repeating for 2 hours, two days a week. There's really not much strategy or skill involved, just abuse of the OP Sura class. Suras are looked at as cheesey characters because of the sheer ease at which they go about thier business.

You don't have to agree with me. It is not my intention to sway others from thier view points. I am merely stating my opinion about the class. I also play Sura, so I can't really be biased. I like my Sura, but I can't argue the fact that they are OP'd. The class needs some nerfs to bring it back down to earth, because as it stands now, fighting against a group of Sura is like fighting a gang of Super Heros. A little bit of class balancing wouldn't hurt the game. I'm sure alot of people would enjoy the game more if player skill counted as much as class selection.


Imo, you should WoE w/ us 1 time and watch those suras from your guild/alliance how bad OP they are.



P.S. Suras are damn OP if a person knows how to play the class right.
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#261 Viri

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:28 PM

The suras in delusion make sura look difficult and not OP. That's for sure.
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#262 veteran2003

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:36 PM

Imo, you should WoE w/ us 1 time and watch those suras from your guild/alliance how bad OP they are.



P.S. Suras are damn OP if a person knows how to play the class right.


Anyone who has a sura and doesnt know how to play it, needs to get a brain implant.
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