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Bringing True Balance to Renewal


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#51 Akin

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:42 PM

You say "nobody has been frustrated enough".

I never said that...

I'm saying that he hurts your chances of keeping this thread "serious" (actually, Heim already ruined it with his post), because he has no concept of the word debate. He just spams his, usually outlandish, opinions and refuses to try to see the issue through any other viewpoint. Just look at his posts in the Renewal Feedback sub-forum. No good discussions came from those.

It's not like I'm calling him names or anything...he's just a bit immature when it comes to discussion.

@topic, maybe it's the guild I'm in, or maybe it's the days I WoE (only Saturdays), but on Ymir, I have yet to see any 1 Sura or Geneticist be of any real threat to any other guild. If you compare their influence on battle, you'll find that the Geneticist is much more effective in causing havoc than the Sura.

Like I said before, all you have to do is give Geneticst fixed cast times (1 second or 0.5 with Sacrament is fine), and prevent Suras from snapping through traps and bingo, you'll have your balance.

If anyone thinks I'm way off base here, I encourage them to speak up and knowledgify me.
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#52 FiskBlack

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:43 PM

PvP is NOT dead. It's killing monsters for fun that is dead. You are actually dead wrong about pvp. There are some things you are correct on, but this is NOT one of them. Your woe/pvp balance fixes are things that everyone knows, and its up to them to apply it, which it obviously needs. kRO gloomy buff would be a mistake here, as it would only hinder a fairly weak RK attack, which is too reducable to be any sort of threat. There are people one shotting without the help of a short lived buff.

I cannot stress this enough to GMs, do not nerf maestro buff or spiral, because it is literally the only attack that only does SOME damage, that does not require item hunts. RKs attacks are all about item hunts, and are half-assed at best. Taking away maestro buff or spirals power, is idiotic, and would only make it that much easier for Genetics/suras/royal guards (DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THEM) to survive in woe and pvp.

Speaking of which, did you know that suras get a skill that DEBUFFS people of ALL maestro song effects that are beneficial? On top of what they already have?


----------------------------------
Sura:
One ranged and one close-up 1 hit KOs? - Check

infinite mobility and teleporting around the map? - Check

100% SP drains? - Check

Player/Maestro buff removals? - Check

self buffs that give +15% more HP? - Check

Self buffs that allow them to dodge a hit and then teleport to the user they are about to g fist at the same time? - Check

I have said enough today about suras. Im sure by now everyone sees my point.

Moving on to royal guard skill spam abuse next. Right now I have to go do something else. Feel free to try and justify any of this without succession.


I pretty much agree everything with you.
The most unbalanced classes are Suras & Genetics, i'm glad to see other players play and know what are the real problems in game.
Safety wall is almost useless that how is it right now, even if it do work suras got plenty more OP skills, i just realized Knuckle arrow can be extremely powerful and spammable, if that wont work they have Tigger Cannon.
The damage of those skills can be absolutely ridiculous even witouth megs/bryn, role playing changed since renewal and some people still dont get that.


Genetics are... all their skills are good, do masively amount of damage and dont have variable cast time, or almost dont have.
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#53 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:43 PM

You really should ease up veteran, you're just too excited/angry about every little thing. You exaggerate the power of genetic a lot, and you want to argue with everyone despite most people agreeing sura is too good. You should relax some, learn a bit more about the mechanics (You wrote a really... combative post where you denied being wrong about Mandragora's cast increment and seemingly ignored my point about stun resist via base lvls. A quick irowiki or google search will show you that you are wrong, btw). Up ahead is a lot of balance changes that really need to hit the table and be tested before we can have too much dialogue about how fair or fun WoE is. So relax and be more open to sharing ideas then ramming yours down the community's throat.


Mandragora howling makes people cast times set at 5 seconds minimum.
You're hallucinating and imagining things if you think I am angry or excited. You don't see me behind my computer. There is no exaggerating of genetic powers, only laid out facts. My original post shows COLD, HARD, facts. There are no ideas to share, as there are only posters like you saying "No youre wrong". You havent posted ideas, and this is yet another post, where you did not post ideas. Instead you complained about FACTS that I posted. If you dont like the already-applied facts that are in this game, then you should join me. But wait, you're a genetic. You would not want to do that. Oops.
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#54 FiskBlack

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:46 PM

Mandragora howling makes people cast times set at 5 seconds minimum.
You're hallucinating and imagining things if you think I am angry or excited. You don't see me behind my computer. There is no exaggerating of genetic powers, only laid out facts. My original post shows COLD, HARD, facts. There are no ideas to share, as there are only posters like you saying "No youre wrong". You havent posted ideas, and this is yet another post, where you did not post ideas. Instead you complained about FACTS that I posted. If you dont like the already-applied facts that are in this game, then you should join me. But wait, you're a genetic. You would not want to do that. Oops.

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#55 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:50 PM

I pretty much agree everything with you.
The most unbalanced classes are Suras & Genetics, i'm glad to see other players play and know what are the real problems in game.
Safety wall is almost useless that how is it right now, even if it do work suras got plenty more OP skills, i just realized Knuckle arrow can be extremely powerful and spammable, if that wont work they have Tigger Cannon.
The damage of those skills can be absolutely ridiculous even witouth megs/bryn, role playing changed since renewal and some people still dont get that.


Genetics are... all their skills are good, do masively amount of damage and dont have variable cast time, or almost dont have.


Knuckle arrow knocks people out of safety wall too. Then, the same people who say "not everyone has god items", tell you "Get a brynhild" when you mention Knuckle arrow knocking you out of safety wall. Which isnt even a skill that all but 2 classes have. really entertaining in a way.
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#56 Akin

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 12:58 PM

Mandragora howling makes people cast times set at 5 seconds minimum.

I had my suspicions, but now I know. 1/10.
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#57 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:10 PM

I had my suspicions, but now I know. 1/10.


Go have one of them cast it on you, and make a video of yourself taking a 5 second casting debuff. 2 seconds is false-talk. Everyone knows its 5 seconds.
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#58 jax5

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:17 PM

It is difficult to simultaneously balance PvP and WoE. In PvP, 1v1 is more common. In WoE, large scale group vs group encounters are more common.

A large part of why people would even group in the first place, is because different members have unique strong points and weaknesses, altogether synergizing into a stronger, more cohesive group unit. If each player is independent, they really don't need, or benefit much from, a group.

Example: Lion Howling to remove gloomy and deep sleep. Sura doesn't do much individual damage contribution, but allows multiple group members to act/survive better.

Example: Mandragora Howling, stringed Lord of Vermillion, and Thorn Wall to nullify a shadow chaser. Genetic could have been hell plant spamming someone, Warlock could have been sniping someone with Tetra Vortex. Instead, their personal damage contributions are lowered, at the cost of protecting certain key classes (i.e. pure-DB RK from being mount stripped) that can output much greater AoE dps.

Example: An AB does oratio and praefation. They could have been doing more damage (i.e. with lex aeterna). Instead, they prevent GX/chaser from sneaking up on a group, and provide a preemptive counter to windmill/moonslasher.

Example: Sorc uses vacuum extreme/fiber lock/dispel/spell breaker/arrulo instead of psychic wave/diamond dust/varetyr spear. This sorc's actual damage contribution is none, but they hold and disable enemies in place, so their higher dps friends can actually and easily deal damage (due to targets locked in place).


I don't think WoE balance is or should be a simple matter of all classes being either given or not given 1 hit KO skills. For PvP to be more interesting, I'd think it could use more "wild card" elements. One example is the presence of PvP teams, each with corresponding, regularly re-spawning, path-patrolling mobs (like buffed guardians or MvPs that don't drop loot).

Edited by jax5, 27 May 2011 - 01:19 PM.

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#59 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:22 PM

It is difficult to simultaneously balance PvP and WoE. In PvP, 1v1 is more common. In WoE, large scale group vs group encounters are more common.

A large part of why people would even group in the first place, is because different members have unique strong points and weaknesses, altogether synergizing into a stronger, more cohesive group unit. If each player is independent, they really don't need, or benefit much from, a group.

Example: Lion Howling to remove gloomy and deep sleep. Sura doesn't do much individual damage contribution, but allows multiple group members to act/survive better.

Example: Mandragora Howling, stringed Lord of Vermillion, and Thorn Wall to nullify a shadow chaser. Genetic could have been hell plant spamming someone, Warlock could have been sniping someone with Tetra Vortex. Instead, their personal damage contributions are lowered, at the cost of protecting certain key classes (i.e. pure-DB RK from being mount stripped) that can output much greater AoE dps.

Example: An AB does oratio and praefation. They could have been doing more damage (i.e. with lex aeterna). Instead, they prevent GX/chaser from sneaking up on a group, and provide a preemptive counter to windmill/moonslasher.

Example: Sorc uses vacuum extreme/fiber lock/dispel/spell breaker/arrulo instead of psychic wave/diamond dust/varetyr spear. This sorc's actual damage contribution is none, but they hold and disable enemies in place, so their higher dps friends can actually and easily deal damage (due to targets locked in place).


I don't think WoE balance is or should be a simple matter of all classes being either given or not given 1 hit KO skills. For PvP to be more interesting, I'd think it could use more "wild card" elements. One example is the presence of PvP teams, each with corresponding, regularly re-spawning, path-patrolling mobs (like buffed guardians or MvPs that don't drop loot).


Very good point-outs made here, however, at the moment, many times you are going to be one hit killed without a chance to fight.
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#60 Nilami

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:28 PM

PvP no matter what aspect, is the most important of the game, because its what everyone does when they max out or nearly max out. Everyone eventually maxes out.

Heimdallr if you're out there I trust you understand our frustration. There will be sura tears, but know this. There will be less "QQ" and "Tears" from every other class.

Majority is supposed to rule, especially when the majority wants common sense added.

This is a personal opinion/perspective of the way that you see the game. Yes, everyone maxes out eventually, but not everyone ends up patrolling PvP and lives there every day. The majority of players will start a new character to try something new, or in the case of many of my friends they end up helping others get to max. Yes, I play a monk-class character as my main (I always have, literally, since 2003 when I had a battle-aco).

What I see here is someone acting like they represent the majority when we have much more variety on our servers than you may realize. It doesn't make your opinions any less valid, it just means you should listen to others that may differ from you because they may have important things to say just as much as you do. In that spirit, I read through this entire thread and agree with you on some points because I was willing to learn from other players.

Zen: totally fine as it was and should be reverted back, ONLY if a kvm fist nerf becomes available, or if every single class soon gains more power, or if snap is changed to have a 1 - 1.5 second global cooldown.

I think you have a very valid point in this statement and you understand where the hangup happens in monk-class skills.

Generally, this is a good thread to have around, in a visual spot on the forums, because it encourages open dialogue and learning. Just be willing to do the same when other players bring up their points.
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#61 asayuu

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:30 PM

Mandragora Flowerpot is the item required to cast Howling of Mandragora, not Maneater Blossom.

Maneater Blossom - 90% from Flora
Mandragora Flowerpot - about 1-5% from Muscipular


Hell plant catalyst is pretty hard to farm up.


You said Hell's Plant. It uses just a plant bottle, right?

Flowerpot is also in high amount on Valkyrie, because of the high amount of bots. And it seems to drop by 2%. 1% with drop penalty.
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#62 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:37 PM

This is a personal opinion/perspective of the way that you see the game. Yes, everyone maxes out eventually, but not everyone ends up patrolling PvP and lives there every day. The majority of players will start a new character to try something new, or in the case of many of my friends they end up helping others get to max. Yes, I play a monk-class character as my main (I always have, literally, since 2003 when I had a battle-aco).

What I see here is someone acting like they represent the majority when we have much more variety on our servers than you may realize. It doesn't make your opinions any less valid, it just means you should listen to others that may differ from you because they may have important things to say just as much as you do. In that spirit, I read through this entire thread and agree with you on some points because I was willing to learn from other players.


I think you have a very valid point in this statement and you understand where the hangup happens in monk-class skills.

Generally, this is a good thread to have around, in a visual spot on the forums, because it encourages open dialogue and learning. Just be willing to do the same when other players bring up their points.


Well most people agree with me. The ones who dont are suras and genetics. For obvious reasons. I would not be here wasting my time at all if any of what I said was not true. Why would I waste my time by making things up? The facts are the facts. But thank you for talking to me about it. I understand how you feel.
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#63 Ralis

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:39 PM

Here, best post ever made on this subject.

This is true, and it applies to many classes, especially the 3-2s. RGs should have gotten less offensive and more defensive skills. Sorcs should have gotten even better ways of SP manipulation than their predecessor the Sage...but instead morphed into the wizard-line, but with higher HP/survivability. Suras should have evolved more efficient single target killing via high-damage and huge-drawbacks. I would say this was accomplished with Rising Dragon and Hell Gate, but they also got an AoE disables, buffs/debuffs (some greater than even an Arch Bishop can do), AoE damage, better ranged damage than Rangers...and on top of that they still retain the most powerful movement skill Snap which is still hasn't been disabled in WoE yet (even though other movement skills have).

This list goes on...but what it all comes down to is that 3-1 classes have skill trees that are very specialized towards just 1 job (they got skills that complimented their 1st and 2nd class skills). 3-2 classes became eff-uped hybrids who can do a little of everything (they got skills that were polar-opposites of their 1st class and 2nd class aims).

This would be fine of left to balance like this example. Scale goes Horrible - Poor - Fair - Decent - Good - Excellent - Unmatched

A well-balanced specialized class would be:
Unmatched at damage
Horrible at support
Horrible at defense/tanking


A well-balanced hybrid class would be:
Decent at damage
Fair at support
Decent at defense/tanking


Current RO hybrid classes are more like:
Excellent at damage
Good at support
Unmatched at defense/tanking


While current RO specialized classes are like:
Unmatched at damage
Poor at support
Poor at defense/tanking


The goal here is that, if your class can do a little bit of everything, it should never exceed in ANY one of those areas. A specialized class should go unrivaled in its specific focus when compared to a hybrid-like class trying to match that same focus (and a hybrid should never even come close). Current RO hasn't achieved that goal. The solution here is to either:
A ) increase all 3-1 (specialized) classes skills to create a focus that no other class can come close to matching.
B ) nerf the hell out of 3-2 (hybrid) classes so that they can aid in a specific focus, but can never out-perform a specialized class in that focus.
C ) get back into the pre-renewal mindframe and change 3-2 classes around to have their own specialized build without the ability to tap into other focus areas.
D ) change 3-1 class skills and stats to allow them for hybridization.

Any one of these options should help bring balance back into this game.


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#64 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:58 PM

I never said that...

I'm saying that he hurts your chances of keeping this thread "serious" (actually, Heim already ruined it with his post), because he has no concept of the word debate. He just spams his, usually outlandish, opinions and refuses to try to see the issue through any other viewpoint. Just look at his posts in the Renewal Feedback sub-forum. No good discussions came from those.

It's not like I'm calling him names or anything...he's just a bit immature when it comes to discussion.

@topic, maybe it's the guild I'm in, or maybe it's the days I WoE (only Saturdays), but on Ymir, I have yet to see any 1 Sura or Geneticist be of any real threat to any other guild. If you compare their influence on battle, you'll find that the Geneticist is much more effective in causing havoc than the Sura.

Like I said before, all you have to do is give Geneticst fixed cast times (1 second or 0.5 with Sacrament is fine), and prevent Suras from snapping through traps and bingo, you'll have your balance.

If anyone thinks I'm way off base here, I encourage them to speak up and knowledgify me.


Now youre getting mad at Heimdallr? All because he is reading this thread? He calls for balance, and you say he is OUTLANDISH and OPINIONATED? There is a REASON that the balance issue came up from the GMs, and I am helping them by addressing KEY issues that suras genetics and royal guards dont want to hear because they will actually have to TRY at anything, once the balance is played on the field.

Edited by veteran2003, 27 May 2011 - 02:01 PM.

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#65 Charon

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:04 PM

I see people complain about howling so often... am I mistaken about it getting a huge nerf in mid-june? Was pretty sure its success chance got lowered to hell some time ago on kRO o.O
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#66 Ralis

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:05 PM

Howling will be fine come the balancing patch. Easier resistance, and Arch Bishops can cure it.
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#67 Unifan

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:07 PM

this thread had become a TL DR
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#68 Kadelia

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:15 PM

You said Hell's Plant. It uses just a plant bottle, right?

Flowerpot is also in high amount on Valkyrie, because of the high amount of bots. And it seems to drop by 2%. 1% with drop penalty.

Hell's Plant uses Thorn Seed, which requires 10 Prickly Fruit to make.
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#69 Ralis

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:18 PM

Hell's Plant uses Thorn Seed, which requires 10 Prickly Fruit to make.


...Pretty sure you make 8-10 Thorn Seeds from one Prickly Fruit.

Also, Hell's Plant = Plant Bottles. /facepalm

Edited by Ralis, 27 May 2011 - 02:21 PM.

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#70 Nilami

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:19 PM

Well most people agree with me. The ones who dont are suras and genetics. For obvious reasons. I would not be here wasting my time at all if any of what I said was not true. Why would I waste my time by making things up? The facts are the facts. But thank you for talking to me about it. I understand how you feel.

My character is a Sura, by the way. I may have my moments/initial reactions that can be misinterpreted, but I generally try to look at things objectively. There are many other players like this, no matter what class they play. It is one of the reasons this forum hasn't completely degraded.
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#71 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:19 PM

Hell's Plant uses Thorn Seed, which requires 10 Prickly Fruit to make.


No.
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#72 Andini

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:21 PM

gx and mechanic are two of the most verstaile classes you can play atm, extremely good if you have a good player playing it with decent gears. the reality might be that 80% of gx/mech/etc players dont know how to use their classes to even half their potential

Edited by Andini, 27 May 2011 - 02:22 PM.

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#73 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:21 PM

Does anyone want to ignore the fact that Geneticists have an AoE acid bomb that nobody likes to talk about, and covers up, as they sit in strings, using howling, and then this skill?

http://i53.tinypic.com/2j6z55.jpg

Edited by veteran2003, 27 May 2011 - 02:23 PM.

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#74 Angelini

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:53 PM

valid points though i think that RGs need to be closely looked at, in pvp it says i take 12k damage and 3k dmg from their attack and i die even though i have 30k hp... where is this hidden dmg coming from that doesnt show up?
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#75 veteran2003

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 03:00 PM

valid points though i think that RGs need to be closely looked at, in pvp it says i take 12k damage and 3k dmg from their attack and i die even though i have 30k hp... where is this hidden dmg coming from that doesnt show up?


The in-game description and the actual power is actually bugged. It needs fixed. Otherwise Rune Knights skill called Sonic Wave, that has the same atk power as the Royal Guards Pinpoint, would be doing the same exact amount of damage, when it only does about 1/4th the damage of pinpoint.

GMs this is a bug and needs fixed. Taking 30% more damage in WoE from a broken shield on top of this bugged damage? I dare you to go into WoE without a shield. I Dare you. Dont come up with the Full Chemical Protection excuse, because supplies are Finite. They do not last forever, and you cant use it before every single precast or pvp situation. having FCP casted on you is quite rare in woe now for some stinking reason.
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