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Bring bishops on par to third classes.


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#51 FiskBlack

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:35 AM

Go easy on the image macros brony

okay, got mah orders that should be on a spoiler too :C

Edited by FiskBlack, 01 June 2011 - 10:35 AM.

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#52 PhenixFire

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:36 AM

+50 to this post, I really like my ME AB 'cept for you know it's not that great lol. The real problem that I have and I'm sure it's been said before are:

1)Getting Adoramus 10 means I get sacrament 5 at job 47. My genetic was job 46 when I 150'd and I used medals to get job exp, so in reality I won't have sacrament (the best buff for a caster) 5 when I 150.

2)Niff 1 or 2, NI, aew cool but the highest non MVP Demon monster is 134 and the highest Undead is 133, so based on the current level caps at 149 I would be forced to either level on MvP's, or Incantation's of Morroc until I was 150? I get that I could party, but there is no reason to be a ME priest if I'm forced to be support considering I miss out on all the other support skills.

3)Everyone laughs at me all the time :(

How to fix them:

1)Tweak the requirements for skills like before, how mace mastery was by itself and ME ended at ME, no need to give Duple light to every priest, well at least not 5 points of it.

2)Uhm, for the leveling cap, I could suggest map ideas but TL:DR would be at a maximum.

3)Bring back the AB glory!
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#53 Ularis

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:44 AM

Having an FS AB for partying purposes is hard to lvl without constant partying.
Though I'm having fun with renovatio+heal on high hp undeads. :(

It's fun but slow. FUN!
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#54 Fibrizzo

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:46 AM

I don't understand what this thread is about. AB's have Sacrament (which is THE BEST buff in the game) High heal (with the right gears you can get a 16k+ HEAL -BROKEN-) are pretty much the best tanks in game with the right gears (even with having the lowest base HP barring warlock) the ONLY problem with archbishop is the low base HP, If that was changed with the new skill updates (which should of been here from the start, what kinda game has new statuses and no way to cure them with the actual Healing class) the class would be perfect. I think the design with archbishop was that the most basic skills make the biggest changes, they didn't need fancy new buff skills to be effective at what they do. All they needed was a little help to spread there effectiveness in a party which they pretty much got.


16k heal with 15 seconds cooldown. Highness Heal 5 is retarded. You can heal faster and more just spamming HHeal 1-Heal-Heal-HHeal 1... And even in this way sometimes pots are needed.

And secrament isn't the best buff ingame... It's a good buff, I agree with you, but the best.

ABs currently are the "free buff scrolls". I, as AB, don't care about my HP if I can do a good job that is keeping my party alive and healthy (impossible with that stupid new abnormal status). But we have to play with oblivions, masquerade ignorances or Stasis (wow, Dragon breath still working but pneumas aren't avaliable!!!). We have silentium. And it works with those who don't use green pots/panaceas/royal jellys/have low int...
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#55 Lucentos

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 04:34 PM

Main problem with Bishop is that it won`t present many useful buffs and supportive skills for support AB - he/she basically more large party oriented Priest.
By the way is it possible to make Assumptio WoE and BG useable? It will be not that imbalanced with postrenewal Assumptio.
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#56 Kadnya

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 04:49 AM

Another problem with bishop/priest buffs, is that our everyday skills got nerfed in renewal. I'm not only talking about the obvious direct buffs: safety wall not protecting against strong attacks because it is a glorified KE, Assumptio now giving a much inferior effect and still not being usable in castles, and etcetera.

Because the way stats changed, our buffs are not the same as prerenewal. Someone mentioned that priest class buffs were supposed to be more oriented towards raw stats and thus priests shouldn't have awesome buffs like enchant blade, striking, or the various pressure points. I strongly disagree. Let's see blessing preREnewal, and blessing postRenewal:

+10 str preRE:

+10str pushed a character to the next str bonus. That resulted into an exponential attack increase, and that exponential attack increase would be then multiplied by the weapon and gear % mods, resulting in a nice boost.

+10 str postRE:

+10 stat attack and +5% weapon based damage. Other minor benefits (like awesome -0.4 seconds in vacuum and such)


+10dex preRE:

For your average wizard, blessing just halved your cast time, or maybe you now reached instant casting! Several other classes reach fast cast times with blessing too. If you are a bow class, you get an exponential attack bonus like with str. Your aspd is also improved a bit. For bows and instruments, you get an exponential damage increase too!

+10 dex postRE:

Your cast time is reduced... a tiny bit. For your average Highwizard/warlock, blessing is about a ~2% cast reduction or less. Dex barely affects aspd (like +1 aspd every 50+ dex?) so if you see an increase in aspd, it's a miracle. There is no exponential increase in atk for bows and instruments, but a plain +10 stat atk, and +5% weapon attack. Good luck, bows and whips still have low attacks not updated to renewal, so your buff is even worse than with str based charas.


+10 int preRE

You have moved two exponential bonuses of max matk and one and half exponential bonuses of min matk!. Other benefits like status resistances and such.

+10 int postRE

A tiny little bit increase in cast speed.
Exponential matk increase? No way! matk is super-strong already!. Let's give you +15 matk, and be happy.
+Int from blessing can be useful for people who is fighting people around their level without being howled and doesn't have/want to switch to a marc carded armor. That is a new buff, very limited in usability, but can be nice.


......................

Stats don't affect chara as much as they did prerenewal. So, unless bishops have really large status buffs (something crazy like +30 X stat and so); direct buffs like +X atk, +X matk, +X HP, and so on; would be better.

Wouldn't it be nice that now that Oda is playing RO, he could take a week or so into playing an archbishop so we have someone inside who can understand the problems of this class?

Edited by Kadnya, 03 June 2011 - 04:52 AM.

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#57 Kadelia

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:22 AM

Kadnya I am sorry but I have the majorly disagree with you. not because you are wrong about the specific examples you give, but because you are conveniently ignoring the renewal mechanics that debase your claims.

First and foremost, your attack on the flat stat increases. Sure +10 int may only add a flat +15 MATK, but you are completely ignoring how INT affects skill formulas. There is a large % boost to skills like Cart Canon/Acid Bomb when you raise INT and STR. 15 ATK won't add much, but the % modifier literally scales with INT to the tune of ~+10% damage on average with something like cart canon. Similarly DEX from Blessing does the same to skills like Severe Rainstorm. The new kRO patch will make these skills even more impressive.

Secondly you are attacking the problem the wrong way. Priest is no longer a stat buff class like they used to be. The expanded WoE role they have now which built upon their old use is status removal. After the new kRO patch, priest-types will be unmatched when it comes to status removal. Arch Bishops will assure the productivity of your guild as they clear statuses like Deep Sleep and Howl of Mandragora.

Essentially you are very wrong about the usefulness of Arch Bishop, but use minor points you are right about (such as the lesser effectiveness of blessing next to, say, gentle touch - change) which is comparing apples to oranges.

As I see it, post kRO's latest balance change, Arch Bishops are very useful in WoE/PVP. They are useful in parties as well. The problem is parties themselves are not useful.
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#58 Charon

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:35 AM

Aye, Jaye,
though it would still make sense to shorten MEs cast to 7+1 and ask kRO if they can tweak matk slightly (or more important actually, nerf mdef a bit instead)
I agree with you.

For example if I'm not mistaken, Safety Wall is going to block any additional damage of the hit it takes instead of directing it to the player with the kro patches, several AB skills will become essential by affecting the currently too good geneticist Howling of Mandragora etc.

Edited by Charon, 03 June 2011 - 05:36 AM.

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#59 Lucentos

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:59 AM

Secondly you are attacking the problem the wrong way. Priest is no longer a stat buff class like they used to be. The expanded WoE role they have now which built upon their old use is status removal. After the new kRO patch, priest-types will be unmatched when it comes to status removal. Arch Bishops will assure the productivity of your guild as they clear statuses like Deep Sleep and Howl of Mandragora.

There are two small problems with these wonderful Lauda skills - they have only 50% success chance and nasty 3 second reuse delay. The later one will be solved by future equipment set from Mora - Protection set 1 & 2, which reduce Reuse delays on Lauda skills for 2 for first generation and for full 3 seconds for second generation of this set. There will be also some other pleasant bonuses for this set, but this set will lack of slot for Marc card so you definitely will be needed to armor swap or allied unfrozen AB or Warmer from Sorcerer to be fully functional.
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#60 Kadelia

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:07 AM

Howling of mandragora and Deep Sleep would be useless if they could be removed instantly and rapidly.

Being able to remove them (even at 50%) makes you a prized asset to your guild, though.

Edited by Jaye, 03 June 2011 - 06:11 AM.

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#61 Fibrizzo

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:30 AM

Howling of mandragora and Deep Sleep would be useless if they could be removed instantly and rapidly.

Being able to remove them (even at 50%) makes you a prized asset to your guild, though.


50% at lvl 4...
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#62 Kadnya

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:39 AM

Kadnya I am sorry but I have the majorly disagree with you. not because you are wrong about the specific examples you give, but because you are conveniently ignoring the renewal mechanics that debase your claims.

First and foremost, your attack on the flat stat increases. Sure +10 int may only add a flat +15 MATK, but you are completely ignoring how INT affects skill formulas. There is a large % boost to skills like Cart Canon/Acid Bomb when you raise INT and STR. 15 ATK won't add much, but the % modifier literally scales with INT to the tune of ~+10% damage on average with something like cart canon. Similarly DEX from Blessing does the same to skills like Severe Rainstorm. The new kRO patch will make these skills even more impressive.


The problem is that if blessing/increase agi are really useful, then you can get just about the same benefit by using a kafra scroll. Or a regular acolyte blessing. The increased status from the new AoE buffs come from job levels, where you need a high leveled bishop to begin with. For +2 or +3 status that a bishop could add during leveling over a regular blessing, I don't see genetics partying bishops, for example.

Secondly you are attacking the problem the wrong way. Priest is no longer a stat buff class like they used to be. The expanded WoE role they have now which built upon their old use is status removal. After the new kRO patch, priest-types will be unmatched when it comes to status removal. Arch Bishops will assure the productivity of your guild as they clear statuses like Deep Sleep and Howl of Mandragora.



I agree that bishops become very strong and very weak with the new kRO patches.

Very strong, because really strong status like mandra howling and deep sleep are mass-recovered by a single bishop fast casting skill. But very weak, because they are more party skills, meaning that:

- You can stand there, infront of the person from your ally/guild who needs recovery, but unable to do anything, just like with clearance now.
- They are blind-use moves: is anyone affected? I don't know, I'll just spam the skills.

Party-blind recoveries largely benefit alt-tabbed slaves, while leaving real player bishops unable to target other players who need recovery. And as you said, instead of making a 100% recovery skill for the new status like how statusrecovery was for the old status; we have to give the recoveries a chance to work or not. A single target 100% recovery would keep deep sleep and howling as useful status, and make player-bishops more important than alt-tabbed slave bishops.

Essentially you are very wrong about the usefulness of Arch Bishop, but use minor points you are right about (such as the lesser effectiveness of blessing next to, say, gentle touch - change) which is comparing apples to oranges.

As I see it, post kRO's latest balance change, Arch Bishops are very useful in WoE/PVP. They are useful in parties as well. The problem is parties themselves are not useful.


In woe, I can see bishops being useful, and a bit more important with the next updates. But the pvm problems remain. Until many players feel like "I would be better partying a bishop"(on even share), I don't feel bishops could be considered ok. Unless the new party system gives something unique to bishops, I don't see why would you party a bishop instead of partying another killer, for example.
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#63 Kadelia

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:42 AM

Its just the EXP. Mobbing is significantly cheaper and less annoying when doing with a healer. Problem is the EXP gets out of whack as a result. People would rather chug whites/ales and solo than give a priest half their EXP. This just needs to be corrected and priests wouldn't have trouble in PVM.
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#64 asayuu

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:46 AM

Poor people [like me] still need bishops~ :)

My arrow cost is already high, and I don't have neither zeny nor space to potions~

Even so, Linked Alchemists heal faster and better than Archbishops. When I find a soul linker with Alchy spirit, I will post a print of that.
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#65 Fibrizzo

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:56 AM

Its just the EXP. Mobbing is significantly cheaper and less annoying when doing with a healer. Problem is the EXP gets out of whack as a result. People would rather chug whites/ales and solo than give a priest half their EXP. This just needs to be corrected and priests wouldn't have trouble in PVM.


The EXP could be secondary if when partying with priest's (even with party shared) the killing way was faster. But it isn't because our job partying is useless.

Heal? pots are better. But we have ales, who cares about pots xD
Buffs? Kafra shop solves your problems.
Lex Aeterna? Useless when spamming AoE skills and killing mobs.

I remember partying on euRO with hunters on GH chivalry (without spamming skills *_*) or killing seals with lex+ soul destroyer, or partying with wizards... I really miss those times when the full game was fun and not only have to log in for WoEing...

Now if I wanna have fun I just play Starcraft 2, LoL or turn on the Wii to play Mario Kart online because RO it's not fun anymore (unless the turn in events, I have to admit they are so damn fun because the teamplay...)

The problem of the game it's not even the game. It's the people who play it and their mind... Really sad >_<

Edited by Fibrizzo, 03 June 2011 - 06:57 AM.

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#66 Kadelia

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:56 AM

Poor people [like me] still need bishops~ :)

My arrow cost is already high, and I don't have neither zeny nor space to potions~

Even so, Linked Alchemists heal faster and better than Archbishops. When I find a soul linker with Alchy spirit, I will post a print of that.


Not sure how the link is relevant, but no, they don't, the heal amount is about the same (or less) unless it is a peco rider. Arch Bishops with Glorious Heal Wand and Glortious Rings and Diabolous Robe/Dress Hat heal for about 3.4k or more, and High Heal for over 10k (you can do high heal-> heal, heal, -> high heal, etc, to average about 5.6k heal/sec, whereas pots are maybe 3-5k/sec and cost a lot of money over a length of time).

People who say heal is weak in renewal have poorly built characters with crummy gear. A well built AB can restore even a 150 Rune Knight to full HP in about 5 seconds. This is more balanced in comparison to other RPGs, unlike RO's "full HP instantly!" mentality.

Edited by Jaye, 03 June 2011 - 07:00 AM.

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#67 asayuu

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 07:05 AM

You spend more in the gear than in the potions. And if you say a lv150 AB with 130+ INT, you might be right.

My AB friend [level 108, 110 INT] heals 2.6k with all the gear listed. And 1.8k with a white potion [After linking, it goes to 3.6k, without the glorious gear]. Not sure about higher levels... I'm not in the mood to calculate.
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#68 Xellie

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 07:37 AM

Oh hi Arch bishop buff topic.

Before I say anything more I wanna just clarify my stance on priests in general, I've played a priest since Beta (yeah, 9 years ago) and it has always been my favourite class and main.

I think for the most part ABs are fine. Mine's 150 it partied most of the way there. I solo'd Nameless when I couldn't party yadda yadda.... the point is the problems I faced were little different to the problems that priests faced pre-anubis and pre-biolabs.

I've never been too keen on the new heal formula. Previously I could pot whilst in danger and heal 2 partymates, my heal was close to 2.8k~3k depending on my gear. I felt that heal was ok when taking into the consideration pre-renewal max HP for other classes.

Now, my 3k ish heal doesn't cut it in comparison to the HP of the classes I party. I'm 150! Oh yes, I have high heal, a skill I reserve for a HP booster if my partymate is losing HP faster than I can heal, but the cooldown is so long I cannot effectively support more than one person. The parties I'm speaking of are high risk / high reward parties. There's little to no point to bring a priest / AB otherwise.

If I was to put forward suggestions to improve ABs, I'd suggest the following.

1/ reduce High heal cool down to 0.75 sec*skill level. OR seperate High heal cooldowns based on level. e.g: Level 1 HH has a seperate cooldown to HH level 5.
2/ Have the ABs level of High heal passively increase the heal amount of sanctuary.
3/ increase the duration of Bless/Agi/Magnificat for ABs so that it is longer than the kafra shop items.
4/ Remove Expiatio from the prereqs for sacrament and replace it with the pre-reqs for silentium. Why go up the battle skill tree for a support skill?!

On attack skills... nah. they're support chars, their support needs to be bought in line to work with other third classes... their attack does not.

You speak of reducing variable cast time.... suff? ;p
HP mod? It's ok. I have 31k HP on my AB at 150. I'm not a tank class or a melee, I don't need more. I can tank every mvp in ET (yes including naght seiger) there's just simply no reason to need more HP.

Every other problem with ABs is a result of the party system that needs fixing. Not much buffing ABs is gonna do about that.
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#69 Ularis

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 07:49 AM

Heim mentioned that the skill tree is what it is.

"And that we should be proud of our accomplishments" via live stream yesterday.

Only options we have is the buffing of skills and the decrease on fixed cast times on skills that have become borderline usless in other game scenarios as stated on previous post.
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#70 Fibrizzo

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:17 AM

Heim mentioned that the skill tree is what it is.

"And that we should be proud of our accomplishments" via live stream yesterday.

Only options we have is the buffing of skills and the decrease on fixed cast times on skills that have become borderline usless in other game scenarios as stated on previous post.


Yes, we should feel proud for being job 32 (minimum) when getting maxed Secrament. And Rune Knight could be job 16 when getting maxed Dragon Breath (with dragon mastery 5), a painfull skill because ignore whatever reduction but ranged (and we must be thankfull). Royal guards can be job level 6 to level till 150 without any problems. Geneticists can be job 11 to deal the higher damage with Cart Cannon (16 if they want cart boost maxed).

Yes, Warlocks and ABs should feel proud for getting their "awesome skills".

I wanna know what understand Heim for proud...

Edited by Fibrizzo, 03 June 2011 - 09:17 AM.

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#71 Chiisu

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 11:39 AM

Hmm, I jumped ship about 6 months ago when my AB was 13X. Re-hashed, uninspired, trash class, in a game where trying to support a party member will just cost them more zenny and exp than playing solo. Makes perfect sense. Just decided to pop back in, and see if anything has changed. Not a damn thing; Haha.
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#72 Akin

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 12:33 PM

Now... Moonlight Serenade/Song of Sinking does not affect Heal, even saying VERY. CLEAR. it raises magic attack. Heal is affected by Magic Attack, but not by Moonlight. I tried to act as a [decent] FS Wanderer helping some exorcist HP/ABs. Okay, their damage output was pretty decent [4k each one of the ME damage hits] but... Unmatched to Severe Rainstorm's output. And 20 silver arrows are cheaper than one Blue Gemstone.

Just one small detail... About the KRO changes... Song of Sinking will not increase heal power... But decrease it instead.

It's clearly a bug in their game logic. I reported it when renewal first came out, but to no avail. Equipment MATK does affect Heal, but any %MATK skill does not (it's funny because Myst Amp is calculated differently and therefore affects heal about). When I was first testing Moonlight, I found that my ABs Holy Light damage increased, but his heal, sanctuary, etc. did not.

Fixing this could make Wanderers a huge buff to ABs. That is if the recent change to Moonlight on kRO isn't a nerf. Time will tell I guess.

As for the change to Sinking Melody, it could become a nice debuff for all Performers so I'm not too upset with the change yet. If only we had some testers over there on kRO...
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#73 naseefc

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 12:34 PM

+1 this

I used to play HP before renewal. Now I see no reason to play that class, no new skills, only party versions of old ones = boring
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#74 Charon

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 01:05 PM

Heim mentioned that the skill tree is what it is.


When he was asked whether there will be better skills added for them...

Which is not the same as requesting tweaks to what skills are prereqs for other skills.

Support skill Sacrament requires battle skills Expiatio and Duple Light
Batlle skill Eucharistica requires support skill Epiclesis.

Elaboration
A fix that would make ABs waste less on skills they don't want to get:
-Eucharistica, remove Epiclesis1 requirement (leaves Expatio1)
-Sacrament, remove Expiatio1 requirement (leaves Epiclesis1)

Edited by Charon, 03 June 2011 - 05:37 PM.

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#75 Ardi

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:28 PM

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