46 replies to this topic

[cybernetic]

With neutral barrier though, when the skill balances come in (again, I know, not yet but still in the future), neutral barriers cooldown (im pretty sure, correct me if im wrong) is 1 minute. so you can use it again just after it ends.

[Gantrithor]

Its all revenge for stealing the magic tek gear from final fantasy 6. Square said you can have it but make it crap because ours are better Japanese originals and yours are cheap Korean knock offs. Blame gravity for not buying in on the copyright and having to bow to squares demands once the class and sprite were already made.

Because every 'round' pilotable robot is a rip off of Final Fantasy.


Slug Armor
Metal Slug Series, SNK


Slug Gunner
Metal Slug Series, SNK



Ride Armor
Megaman Series, Capcom

Final Fantasy VI is such a rip off of Tetsujin 28-go (1956) and Mazinger Z (1972) which are both 'rip-offs' of La Maison à vapeur by Jules Verne.
--
On-Topic

Sure, Mechanic can reach 150 better than some other classes, however, once 150, the only purposes for a mechanic is Greed, Weapon Repair, clear Floor 91 in Endless Tower and to look awesome. Everything else is cool but otherwise useless and inefficient.

As for Suicidal Destruction, you have 36 keyboard mappable hotkeys. Get a Smokie Card (1M Zeny) or a Wig (300KP) and devote 3 hotkeys to use 'Hide' (Hide Gear -> Hide -> Default Gear).

If your reaction time is more than 2.5 seconds, you might want seek advice on strokes with your GP.

Reaction Time Test

[Sera]

Pretty much agreed.

A... greed.

Get it?

But yeah.

[Clogon]

One of the things I don't like about Mado is that they completely prevent Mechs from using any skill other than Mech ones. No Hide Clip, no Greed, no Power Maximization. The lose your mado on death is very annoying especially in instances. 14.1 has a major instance that if the mado mech dies and chose to get back again. They will most likely get lost in the labyrinth and never meet up with their party again.

Mado is supposed to be a super form but it can't even compete with a Sura. <.<

Edited by Clogon, 14 June 2011 - 08:46 PM.

[Akin]

They should sell a new misc. item called "spare junk" that weighs 2000 and can be used to with a new job skill "rebuild" that has a 10 second interruptable fixed cast time. The final result is a new mado suit in the field instead back in town. That way, a Mechanic could potentially carry around 4 in his/her cart and maybe a couple on his/her person.

Edited by Akin, 14 June 2011 - 09:07 PM.

[Gantrithor]

To be fair, I did consider Magic Gear to be an alternate form of mechanic rather than a "Super Form". However, all variants of Mechanic are just not good currently. Power Swing, the ultimate axe skill (in the original use of the word 'ultimate') is worse than Mammonite. Magic Gear skills, the most numerous and variant, just do not match what other third classes are able to do. To reach a Mechanics penultimate potential, you only need to be job level 7. 1 skill point into Axe Mastery, 5 skill points on Axe Tornado.

There have been numerous changes on kRO, however, much of the information I have found has been vague like "formula changed", "cooldown reduced" but to what extent, I do not know.
From what I have read, I am liking the change in Vulcan Arm to do splash, force feeding lead into someone and everyone near him/her, it should be different or better than it's prerequisite skill that does not require any catalyst to use.
I do not like the change to Arm Cannon to be target AoE, as opposed to ground AoE, no more spraying Level 1 Arm Cannon at cloaked people.
I find the changes to Neutral Barrier, Stealth Field, Infrared Scan, Axe Boomerang and Power Swing promising, but I do not know the extent of those changes.

I also am liking the changes to hover. Hopefully when the patches reach iRO it will completely fix iRO's bugged up Hover.
--
On the topic of 'creativity',

What about some kind of Magnetic Greed as a (quest) skill. Following the vein of the current Magic Gear skills, it will require a Magnetic Coil and Magic Gear Fuel to use. It will have a long, 5 - 15 second cooldown and it's effect will be a 31x31 AoE Greed.

Edited by Gantrithor, 14 June 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[ShrimpGirl]

They should sell a new misc. item called "spare junk" that weighs 2000 and can be used to with a new job skill "rebuild" that has a 10 second interruptable fixed cast time. The final result is a new mado suit in the field instead back in town. That way, a Mechanic could potentially carry around 4 in his/her cart and maybe a couple on his/her person.

Mechanics do need a skill or item or some other way to resummon their mado, but I think this is a bit harsh since we're talking about less WoE and more end game PVM/Instances. Most PVM based MS/mechs I know, like to keep their cart weight full, or carry extra supplies for the party, like pots/metals for repairs.
They should create a skill that you can gain through a quest perhaps, that would allow a mechanic to repair their mado. Give it a fixed cast of perhaps 2-3 seconds, and a skill specific reuse delay or maybe 3-5 minutes. Maybe use steel or even elu/ori as a catalyst perhaps. This way, if you die during an instance, or a turn in event, you don't miss out on tons of action because you have to run back, but since it has a long recast, their is still an element of having to play smart and know when to use certain skills. And if people are worried about something like this in WoE, disable this particular skill on WoE maps.

Really, not being able to regain my mado after death in PVM is probably the my biggest gripe about mado mechs.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

Pretty much agreed.

A... greed.

Get it?

But yeah.

Speaking of Greed, it's by far the best AoE skill the mechanic gets, and it can't even be used in the Mado

(seriously, I made my mechanic solely for the purpose of greeding in magma 2, but I kind of got carried away because this class is kind of fun.)

[Nombus]

Why don't I make threads about GX? I don't have one and know absolutely nothing about it. If you are so filled with the desire to see your class corrected, then make a thread of your own, rather than berating me for not picking up your slack.

I wasn't berating you, it was more of a general point with you as the focus considering this is your second thread for Mechanics and I've never seen you post in another class discussion. GX isn't "my class" (I'm that that much of a masochist) I play it as an alt for fun as I enjoyed them prerenewal. I main a Sorcerer. I make a point of arguing for or against any class that I am reasonably aquainted with, as those opinions are generally more useful than those that have a vested interest in seeing a particular class stay or become more powerful. Personally I'd like to see people actually caring about general ballance rather than rooting for their own class when they make class discussions.

I've never played a Mechanic but I've seen what they're capable of in PvM and WoE. Their AoE DPS is about the same as a Sorcerer whatever mode their in, which may be a bit low compared to other classes, but seems ballanced for the most part (SD being their trump, and quite a trump at that). While in the mado they've got access to decent AoEs and defensive skills that are ideal for a precast. When outside they have access to a decent AoE and extremely good single target skills. Overall I'd say the class is fantastically dynamic in WoE as they have two modes that are separated by a extremely strong attack. In PvM they have the choice to specialize in being Mado or Axes.

What seems to be the issue for most players is that they want access to everything at once. Many think of the mado as their supped up form, when in actuality it primarily exists as a WoE function, just as many other classes have half their skill tree dedicated to WoE. The mado offers a great mix of offensive skills and defensive. Upon the use of Suicidal Destruction they are purely offensive. The class is blessed as all their old skills are still extremely useful, and loosing the mado is in no way a gimp as their single target DPS goes up.

[Andini]

another good thing bout being in a mado is that you can ignore all the requests for people wanting you to repair them

[Sera]

I wasn't berating you, it was more of a general point with you as the focus considering this is your second thread for Mechanics and I've never seen you post in another class discussion. GX isn't "my class" (I'm that that much of a masochist) I play it as an alt for fun as I enjoyed them prerenewal. I main a Sorcerer. I make a point of arguing for or against any class that I am reasonably aquainted with, as those opinions are generally more useful than those that have a vested interest in seeing a particular class stay or become more powerful. Personally I'd like to see people actually caring about general ballance rather than rooting for their own class when they make class discussions.

I've never played a Mechanic but I've seen what they're capable of in PvM and WoE. Their AoE DPS is about the same as a Sorcerer whatever mode their in, which may be a bit low compared to other classes, but seems ballanced for the most part (SD being their trump, and quite a trump at that). While in the mado they've got access to decent AoEs and defensive skills that are ideal for a precast. When outside they have access to a decent AoE and extremely good single target skills. Overall I'd say the class is fantastically dynamic in WoE as they have two modes that are separated by a extremely strong attack. In PvM they have the choice to specialize in being Mado or Axes.

What seems to be the issue for most players is that they want access to everything at once. Many think of the mado as their supped up form, when in actuality it primarily exists as a WoE function, just as many other classes have half their skill tree dedicated to WoE. The mado offers a great mix of offensive skills and defensive. Upon the use of Suicidal Destruction they are purely offensive. The class is blessed as all their old skills are still extremely useful, and loosing the mado is in no way a gimp as their single target DPS goes up.

I've tried to comment on Warlock before, but that just makes Haseo start talking, and I hate that. I comment on Mechanic because I have experience with it. I mention things like Sura and RK and AB from time to time, because I've watched them play. I don't even have a SinX though, and I've never partied a GX and I don't WoE to fight them.

If you think there is such a thing as an Axe Mechanic, you don't really understand the class. 1 Axe Mastery and 5 Axe Tornado, all other skill points in axe skills are wasted, and as for the mastersmith skills, what else are you going to get, the -_-ty forging/upgrading? An Axe Mech is just a Mado Mech who isn't 150 yet.

And as for your last comment, the main point of this entire thread is that the devs only considered WoE and grinding PVM when they designed mechanics. They did not consider instanced dungeons AT ALL. I'm not asking to be able to do everything, the class levels and WoEs acceptably imo and has strengths and weaknesses in each, but I truly believe that instanced dungeons were not even considered when designing the function of the mechanic. In my view, it's more that the class is not functioning properly in that aspect of gameplay, rather than simply being underpowered.

[Viri]

Give them an item that lets them resummon it and then has a 10 minute cooldown.

[Gantrithor]

"Decent AoE", "Decent DPS", No way!

I believe there should be two different modes, hence orignally, being in the magic gear made you unable to use axe skills and the recent updates which buff the axe skills. Even so, both "modes" are terrible at everything.

Let's have a look in terms of WoE.
Offense
Axe, Single Target
High Speed Cart Ram
Firstly everyone is immune to stun. Secondly, even if some say it's the highest DPS in the game, which is only half-right, in WoE situations it's easily out-pottable, it's literally just throwing away zeny.

Magic Gear, Single Target
What? Knuckle Booster? Serious?

Axe, AoE
Hammerfall, everyone is immune to stun.
Axe Tornado, you're kidding, right?
Cart Revolution, I guess you can give statuses but really, the statuses that you can spread are easily shrugged off.

Magic Gear, AoE
Arm Cannon, big AoE and weak or small AoE and not so weak, not strong either. Best use is probably level 1 for spreading statuses. See Cart Revolution.

Support
Axe
Weapon Repair, saves a trip to the repair Kafra outside. Note that any Blacksmith can do this.

Magic Gear
Neutral Barrier
Walking Pnumea, all skills of user miss except for Arm Cannon 60 second duration, 120 second cooldown. That's pretty decent, Mechanics get to spend a couple of weeks getting to 150 just to be able to give the pnumea effect half the time.

Ice Launcher
AoE Freezing effect, doesn't work while in Neutral Barrier.

But of course, WoE is a team effort, surely you'll have strings and whatnot!
Well, let's consider a team situation now.

Single Target, Axe
HSCR, Pathetic waste of zeny, what do you contribute to the team? Nothing, because 1) you won't be killing anyone that knows what they're doing and 2) you're guild probably has gloomy stringed CS or RS, which will do higher burst AND DPS than HSCR and they aren't reflected or have to be right next to the enemy to do it, i.e. they can hide out safely in their precast, not that beefy classes like RKs and RGs need to. (Yes, I know an RG may do so for sac)

Single Target, Magic Gear
Oh Look, now you have strings for your knuckle boost! So what? Same as above.

AoE, Axe
Serious?

AoE, Magic Gear
Arm Cannon... in strings! I'm assuming this is the "decent AoE", well considering you're in a "team", there are better people to put on the cell of strings that you are occupying like stringed OB RG and stringed DB RK, DB RK has more damage, at the cost of being forced fire. But of course RKs also have their gloomy CS, Ice Endow CS WILL kill anyone wearing fire armour.

Ice Launcher
I put this in the AoE offensive section for team effort because of all the people who default fire armour to survive DB and never armour switch. Yeah, in strings, this could probably kill those guys, 1 RK spamming DB and 1 Magic Gear Mech spamming, Ice Launcher. That in theory sounds like a really good thing to add to a precast. I wonder why I've never seen it being done?

Support
Neutral Barrier, same as way above somewhere.

Ice Launcher, same as way above somewhere.

So from that you can gather that in WoE, there are 2 things a Mechanic can do.
Neutral Barrier and Ice Launcher. Now let's look into those two.

Firstly Neutral Barrier.
What is it? Range reduction.
What else provides Range reduction? Defender + Sac (Crusader skill), Pneuma (Acolyte skill)

Of course every class has their "specialty" right?
Let's look at these classes.

Royal Guard, Defender + Sac, 80% reduction, in WoE situations this may as well be immunity. Sura and Arch Bishop have Pnumea, it's like Neutral Barrier, except you can still use your skills and you don't have to just stand around like a douche. What does a mechanic specialize in that sets it apart from the Royal Guard and Sura or Arch Bishop?

Ranged Reduction
Mechanic: 100%, half the time
Royal Guard: 80%, all the time
Sura: 100%, 100%, all the time, multiple, (10 second duration, no delay, (animation delay, cancellable)
Arch Bishop: Same as Sura

Let's see, Single Target DPS
Mechanic: None, especial while neutral barrier.
Royal Guard: Still able to use Vanishing Point and Rapid Smiting
Sura: Doesn't have to be in Pneuma, has freedom to snap around and do it's usual thing, GFist, GoH, KA
Arch Bishop: None.

AoE Damage:
Mechanic: Arm Cannon (No!), Ice Launcher (In strings, Yes!)
Royal Guard: Genesis Ray (Forced Holy, against non holy, greater than Mechanic), Overbrand (endowable, greater than Mechanic)
Sura: None useful in WoE
Arch Bishop: None

Support:
Mechanic: None can be used while Neutral Barrier is in effect. Stealth Field, low duration, long cooldown, does it work on Emperiums? Magnetic Field, low duration, easy to escape, very long cooldown.
Royal Guard: Shield Reflect, Sacrifice, Battle Chant (doesn't stack with others)
Sura: Heal, Blessing, AGI UP, Decrease AGI, Cure, Gentle Touches, Cursed Circle.
Arch Bishop: Heal, Blessing, AGI UP, Decrease AGI, Cure, Imposito Manus, Suffragium, B.S.S, Aspersio, Kyrie Eleison, Safety Wall, Gloria, Lex Aeterna, Lex Divina (most people immune), Sanctuary, Status Recovery, Cantocandidus, Clementia, Praefation, Coluseo Heal, Highness Heal (It's High Heal, but I like the sound of Highness Heal), Clearance, Expiatio, Oratio, Renovatio, Sacrament, Silentium (Most people immune)

Now let's look at Ice Launcher, causes freezing. Who else can cause freezing? Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock.
And what makes them different?

Singe Target DPS:
Mechanic: None
Ranger: None
Sorcerer: None
Warlock: Some

AoE:
Mechanic: None
Ranger: None that I know of
Sorcerer: Quite a few
Warlock: Quite a few
(Just cause I could be bothererd listing all the Arch Bishop skills doesn't mean I can be bothered listing all the sorc/warlock ones)

Support:
Mechanic: See above
Ranger: A few nifty traps
Sorcerer: Extreme Vaccuum, Dispel, Magnetic Earth, Soul Exhcange (Yes I know it's nerfed) Soul Burn, Mind Breaker, Warmer, Striking, some others
Warlock: White Imprison, Ganbantein, Quagmire, maybe some others

==
So there you have it in a long tired and tiring, incoherent post.

Summary
There only 3 things a Mechanic can do in WoE.
1) Ice Launcher to spread freezing, DPS only in strings and with a RK next to you (Because if there's noone spamming DB and someone is spamming Ice Launcher, why would you in your right mind be wearing fire armour)
2) Be the Pneuma (half the time), while some classes cast Pnumea, Mechanic actually gets to be Pneuma.
3) Repair stuff

That's it. The only thing it actually "specializes" in is 3). The other two, other classes do it better and can do other things while the mechanic can only do that thing and nothing else.

[Sera]

You forgot to mention Vulcan Arm

I think a fix that would be pretty fair is to make the summonable turrets more like WoW Shaman totems.

Edited by Sera, 16 June 2011 - 10:32 AM.

[jax5]

Mechanics, in their current implementation, can be one of the most frustrating classes to play:

-job 70 mastersmith weapon upgrade > job 50 mechanic weapon upgrade (skill regression)
-All active merchant/blacksmith/mastersmith skills are unusable in mado form. What's the point of all those skill points?
-Heat counters have no visible icon or counter display and the cooldown skill still does not cure overheat status, and possibly only partially reduces overheat counter (instead of resetting it).
-Ammunition and gear requirements for MADO skills are excessive (high weight acessories and 3 weight magic gear fuel).
-They have some of the most useless 3rd skills in game (vulcan arm, power swing).
-axe mechanic skill-tree line does not change gameplay at all compared to mastersmith (uncreative design).


To make this class more fun/useful, I think some of the following changes would benefit:

1) All 1st/2nd/trans skills directly usable in mado form
2) All mechanic-only accessories/fuel weight to be changed to 1/10 of current (e.g. magic gear fuel weighs .3 instead of 3)
3) left and right slide skills added
4) Mado form is not lost on death, but susceptible to masquerade groomy
5) Remodel mainframe to be replaced with passive +HP/+% HP bonus and partial resistance to masquerades
6) Heat/overheat completely removed from game.
7) Vulcan arm replaced by some type of high cast time, high damage-per-hit skill (that benefits greatly from magic strings)
8) Power swing to be replaced with some buff that adds chance to proc random divest on attack (and dex dependent)
9) Increase AoE range and/or reduce re-use time on AoE buff skills (cloaking/neutral barrier)
10) Fire launcher changed to work similarly to genetic spore explosion, but with decreased activation count-down timer

Edited by jax5, 17 June 2011 - 02:02 AM.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

Having those blacksmith buffs useable in mado form would be amazing. Oh, and let us use Greed too. thanks. <3

[Cylon]

Before anyone says anything, no I won't post it there. No one reads those threads anyway. This class seriously needs a lot more attention beyond just "Nerf Suicidal Destruction"

Your right, no one reads the feedback threads, especially gravity

Edited by Cylon, 18 June 2011 - 07:53 AM.

[asayuu]

Singe Target DPS:
Mechanic: None
Ranger: None
Sorcerer: None
Warlock: Some

Actually...

Single Target DPS:
Mechanic: The ability to reach very high ASPD [180+] with one two-handed axe or Mace [+ Adrenaline Rush] and speed potion [Berserk Potion] can make it work very well. Their best spammable skills [Mammonite, HSCR] have ASPD-delay, so if you have money, you can "buy" levels [Hehe~]
Ranger: Of the classes listed here, the one able to reach the highest ASPD, has a high amount of self-buffs with bow, and True Sight + Fear Breeze boosts drastically the DPS. But few rangers really go Warg Strike + Fear Breeze.
Sorcerer: Hindsight. One soul-linked Hindsight, added with high ASPD and Double Bolt, can make 1-STR sorcerers "onehit" most monsters. The ability to boost their own attack with Striking is also very nice.
Warlock: What? Does Warlocks really have DPS? They KS people with their 29x29 AOE skills to level. ^_^

Oh, and about Ice Launcher...

Ice Launcher
I put this in the AoE offensive section for team effort because of all the people who default fire armour to survive DB and never armour switch. Yeah, in strings, this could probably kill those guys, 1 RK spamming DB and 1 Magic Gear Mech spamming, Ice Launcher. That in theory sounds like a really good thing to add to a precast. I wonder why I've never seen it being done?

Does GTB "ignore" Ice Launcher? Anyways, depending of the "cost", or the "need" of the mechanic in other places [Guess what, guess what: REPAIRING] they prefer to "Endow Tsunami", or give converters to, or crystal arrows to one Wanderer [Because the work of the Maestro is giving Strings, Wanderer is a stray... Swan] to rainstorm in the precast. It costs arrows, but it's a physical strike, therefore can ignore GTB and do the same work as you intended to make with Ice Launcher.

I really don't know anything much about Mechanics, but after seeing the price of the items on teh "Black Market", I even got scared. Clarify me everything I had mistaken ^_^

Also, the fuels are really expensive and heavy.

I would like also to have one ticket able to summon the MadoGear again. For whoever needs it. It does exist Kafra Card to summon teh storage, so it could have something like that. Maybe costing 100k, or more zeny, to buy, and not discountable...

[Sera]

HSCR does not work with SP recovery gear and is only a single-target skill, making it horrifically inefficient to use for leveling. It also requires you to not be in quag/agi down and stand at most 1 cell from the target.

[cybernetic]

Also: Ice launcher is abysmal to use in WoE, mainly because, unlike arm cannon, ice launcher is affected by demi human reducs. Try use it in pvp - everyone takes <4k damage from it on a 100+xx mech with 2 megs and a mjolnir. .

[Gantrithor]

Was tired when I posted that and just copy/pasted above parts.

Ranger, Mechanic and Sorcerer can all reach 193 ASPD, 193 ASPD =/= High DPS, especially for rangers in WoE as ranged attacks suffer WoE penalties.

As for Ice Launcher sucking, that means Mechanic is just the walking Pnumea or the 150 Blacksmith.

1) All 1st/2nd/trans skills directly usable in mado form
2) All mechanic-only accessories/fuel weight to be changed to 1/10 of current (e.g. magic gear fuel weighs .3 instead of 3)
3) left and right slide skills added
4) Mado form is not lost on death, but susceptible to masquerade groomy
5) Remodel mainframe to be replaced with passive +HP/+% HP bonus and partial resistance to masquerades
6) Heat/overheat completely removed from game.
7) Vulcan arm replaced by some type of high cast time, high damage-per-hit skill (that benefits greatly from magic strings)
8) Power swing to be replaced with some buff that adds chance to proc random divest on attack (and dex dependent)
9) Increase AoE range and/or reduce re-use time on AoE buff skills (cloaking/neutral barrier)
10) Fire launcher changed to work similarly to genetic spore explosion, but with decreased activation count-down timer

1) I kinda feel their should be a difference between Magic Gear and non-Magic Gear. Although 193 ASPD with Neutral Barrier for Emp breaking would be cool.
3)Play Magic Gear with WASD?
4)What's the point in this sprite?
5) Remodel Mainframe will add 20 + 20*SkillLevel Defense in an upcoming patch.
6) Atleast give an indicator such as a "heatbar". Overheat limit will be increased and the amount reduced by Emergency Cool is changed in an upcoming patch.
7) In an upcoming patch, Vulcan Arm will have a changed cooldown and damage formula. It's damage will be increased by Base Level. It will do 3x3 splash damage, like bursting a M61 Vulcan at someone. (bursting at someone, not spraying at an incoming charge, i.e. it's still a Single Target Skill)
8) Power Swing's damage is going to be increased aswell as its chance to activate Axe Boomerang. Axe Boomerang's Cooldown will be reduced and its range will be increased. Its damage formula will also be changed.
9) They are both being increased from 3x3 to 5x5. Unfortunately, Magnetic Field will also be changed to 5x5 on all levels.
10) Spore Explosion is more like planting C4 on someone, Flame Launcher is... a Flamethrower. It is getting a changed cast time formula. It does still need some reworking though, as it is a freaking Flamethrower.

Why not just let Mechanics call down tactical airstrikes and tactical nukes, that'll balance things out well. Or is that something they're going to give the Gunslinger's second class?

[asayuu]

Make madogear attacks come from the "Formless" race. [Like Juperos' robots]

It's not one human directly hitting you with one axe or magic. It's one damn huge robot. I think this would fix most stuff.