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#1 Scuba

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:54 AM

This is not a QQ thread, it is not a rant, it is a much needed (hopefully mature and insightful) thread on reaching a solution collaboratively.

Gravity does not want to air their bot problem all over the first place people look when joining a game. I don't think they are against listening to our ideas for solutions. There needs to be a more 'veteran' forum where we can openly discuss the nasty parts of the game searching for solutions. I say solutions because an unhealthy majority of these threads are flames and rants.

The search for a self-sustaining solution is critical for success. The GMs (to my understanding) are understaffed as it is. Reporting bots through tickets is a waste of time for everyone involved. The GMs know there is a bot problem, and yes there are bots on pretty much EVERY map. They know, stop spamming them. Without bot reports GMs can focus on tickets that matter.

An example of a constructive suggestion would be something like this:
[The idea - be brief]
-For the first global map a character switches to when logging in (field maps / dungeon maps) A chat dialogue appears asking to type the name of the first item in your 'equip' inventory. If you fail to answer correctly then you can't go outside.

[Optional - elaborate on how the system won't hurt real players]
-The system won't harm real players because it would work almost like a captcha system. If a player has no items in their equip window they can just temporarily un-equip some gear. If they aren't wearing gear they shouldn't be entering a field map in the first place. It would take a while for a botter to configure such a complex system with so many variable responses. Botters would only be able to stay on their current field maps for so long before either dying or returning to town.

tl;dr: Bot related threads need to become more constructive. Pointing out bots is redundant and a waste of time after 5 years of the same situation.

I urge the GMs to move this thread to a less mainstream location to avoid bad publicity
*I would be happy to update the original post with strikethrough ideas that have been shot down to avoid redundancy.*

IDEAS
:
*Ideas will not be struckthrough until downed by GMs
GM Patrol on common maps
Item check - captcha
Volunteer Work
Color Coded message / Image Clue
Suspicious Vendors

Edited by Scuba, 26 June 2011 - 07:39 AM.

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#2 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:08 AM

Ymir doesn't have this problem. Valkyrie and Yggdrasil do. (I play in Yggdrasil as well as Ymir) We just need GMs to go to places where bots hang out the most such as Stapos, Magmarings, Petites, Clocktower 2nd, etc.

Also, some bots are set to level endlessly, meaning they don't have to pick up items and can go on forever in a map as long as they are able to sit or have some way to accelerate recovery/regen (Heal/Magnificat), so your last statement is invalid. Furthermore, most bots kill stuff 30-40 levels below them, to the point they can 1 shot them easily and move on to the next.
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#3 GuardianTK

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:12 AM

I think one of the things that pisses me off though, is that player botters who are banned can be given a chance to return as long as they are willing to surrender all of their possessions on that said account...or some variable of that anyways...
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#4 ryu888

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:20 AM

They won't get rid of bots, unless they come up with a clever script, or another way of registering, which won't ever happend.

Bots are created by the thousands every day I reckon.
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#5 Scuba

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:31 AM

I personally disagree with my statement being invalid. I don't want to confuse limitation with elimination. Nobody here is pretending that bots will go away. My example is probably not going to be the solution. Its just an example. Low level bots change maps constantly. A thief can only stay in spores for so long. Eventually they move up.

As far as my example goes, I pondered it further and it has some more aspects that make it appealing. Its easily changeable. Once a bot adapts just change the check to be an item in your 'etc' or your current Max HP. For leveling bots Max HP is always changing every time they level. Making it harder to script.

I'm glad we are getting suggestions, but I would appreciate people either commenting on current suggestions, or suggesting on their own. As stated in OP, posts that are said with defeatist attitudes are not helpful.
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#6 weaselinpants

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:24 AM

Amateur hour.

The means to take down bots exists:

http://mll.csie.ntu....s/bot_ident.pdf

Implementing the system will cost money, taking bots out will cost money because they spend money to. Gravity does not have money:

http://postimage.org/image/2rz3d79t0/

http://www.google.co...e?q=NASDAQ:GRVY


And while I'm posting, people need to stop giving Heimdall so much :o, that poor guy is doing his best and all I ever see people do is complain. He is the middle man, it's like watching a bunch of old people at the movies yelling at the guy at the ticket counter cause the movie sucked. (Yes this last bit is off topic for this post atm)
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#7 WaterBaron

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:43 AM

I don't think there can be any automated/script solution to bots because that's exactly what a computer is good at. There should just be more surveillance of troubled maps by GM's or by volunteers. Surely there are a few community members who can be trusted enough to spend a few hours a week checking commonly botted maps. They could be given " volunteer" accounts with limited GM powers, or otherwise have some way to temporarily "freeze" an account until it was reviewed by a GM.

Just to be clear I'm not talking about hunting down "player" bots. That should always be a GM responsibility. Volunteers would target obvious gold selling bot farms (assuming this is the majority of the problem) and stay away from anything that might be questionable. Again, the purpose of the volunteers isn't to ban real players for botting (that's the GM's job), but instead to go after the very visible bot farms.

Anyway, I'm on Ymir where this isn't much of a problem. I'm just assuming this might be helpful for the non-VIP (Ygg and Valk) servers.

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#8 Anchors

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:48 AM

I personally disagree with my statement being invalid. I don't want to confuse limitation with elimination. Nobody here is pretending that bots will go away. My example is probably not going to be the solution. Its just an example. Low level bots change maps constantly. A thief can only stay in spores for so long. Eventually they move up.

As far as my example goes, I pondered it further and it has some more aspects that make it appealing. Its easily changeable. Once a bot adapts just change the check to be an item in your 'etc' or your current Max HP. For leveling bots Max HP is always changing every time they level. Making it harder to script.

I'm glad we are getting suggestions, but I would appreciate people either commenting on current suggestions, or suggesting on their own. As stated in OP, posts that are said with defeatist attitudes are not helpful.


Actually, given that homunc AI is able to read percentage of HP of itself and of its owner (I'm certain about the former and about 90% sure of the latter), I'm sure bots would be able to do the same if not more. Similarly, I think there was a point in early homunculus development where it was possible to activate auto potion toss into your AI and also to detect whether the owner was out of pots, meaning that a homunc AI was also able, to some degree, to read player inventory.

That said, an anti-bot system would probably not succeed if the only check is for a character-related parameter like HP or an item in one's inventory.

One thing I've seen... elsewhere *cough* that seemed pretty effective is a color-coded NPC message like the following:
Please type the letter you see below:
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@
(and then the NPC dialogue prompts the player for data entry)

Of course, it wouldn't have to be exactly the same. A player could be given multi-colored dialogue and be prompted for the color of a certain word in that dialogue. In addition to that, I'm not sure whether a bot can "read" NPC dialogue, so it might do to make all the dialogue the same except for color, but switch up which words are what color or something.

Something like that might be of help (although I don't know how many colorblind players we have, so not 100% sure if this exact type of solution will work :x )?
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#9 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:17 PM

Here's my suggestion:

Report Bot NPC that prompts:
Type the name of the suspected bot user here:
Reason:

You cannot report people who are in town. The suspected bot receives a message to type and if he/she does not enter the message correctly within 1 minute, that bot is sent to a "jail" where it will be there unable to use skills/items for 12 hours.
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#10 Scuba

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:38 PM

I like that idea too. But the same character should not be testable more than once per day. Seems like it could kill people trying to level legitimately too by those who are less honest.
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#11 Anchors

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:50 PM

Here's my suggestion:

Report Bot NPC that prompts:
Type the name of the suspected bot user here:
Reason:

You cannot report people who are in town. The suspected bot receives a message to type and if he/she does not enter the message correctly within 1 minute, that bot is sent to a "jail" where it will be there unable to use skills/items for 12 hours.


Sounds super abusable. x.x For instance, whos checking their PMs during WoE? Or for those merchants who vend at, say, Orc Village or south of Prontera, if you want to get rid of sales competition just go report them o.o And that's not even thinking about the players who are either really awful at at typing, those who just cannot understand English well, or those who have /exall on by default, etc.
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#12 Ralis

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:58 PM

Changing up the Save / Storage worked pretty well, but for some reason the GMs didn't really ban the bots caught by that... They just let them sit until the owners fixed them.

This can also be done to things like shops; Change the order of items in shops like the Prontera Item Store so the bots get stuck trying to buy orange / yellow / white potions that are no longer there. Just need to actually ban them when they all get grouped up. @@
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#13 weaselinpants

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:13 PM

Jeezus Christ you people blew right over what I said as if it wasn't real. Youre in denial, that anti-botting measures exist they simply won't be implemented because its not economically sound to ban accounts which are giving a struggling company money, to appease the whines of the community. I've been in this game since beta. Even in Gravitys glory days they didn't get rid of all the bots, all of your suggestions have been brought up before, stop wasting your time and go do something productive because bots aren't going to be solved everrrr. Its a money issue. The solution is right in the link it's a professional computer science study on BOTS in RAGNAROK and it shows exactly how to tell who are bots based on minimal packet transmissions. But it hasn't been implemented despite publishing 5 years ago! Give up, they don't care to wipe bots off the face of ragnarok plain and simple, and if you don't like that join the rest of the community that got bitter about it and got over it or left. Your ragnarok does not exist, ragnarok is not a fair game, those with money and thus kafra points, or those who bot, win, plane and simple. All you can hope to do is hope to enjoy the game for yourself. And when you start to feel you can't enjoy it because of bots, you better get to movin on because in all the years this game has been around, despite all the solutions, none have or will be implemented.

For educations sake:

Any of your ideas that are not data form based like in the document I linked to are fail. Data transmission is key to identifying bots all other measures become client side and are circumventable.
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#14 GuardianTK

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:18 PM

Here's my suggestion:

Report Bot NPC that prompts:
Type the name of the suspected bot user here:
Reason:

You cannot report people who are in town. The suspected bot receives a message to type and if he/she does not enter the message correctly within 1 minute, that bot is sent to a "jail" where it will be there unable to use skills/items for 12 hours.

So people who AFK are -_-ed, huh?
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#15 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:36 PM

So people who AFK are -_-ed, huh?


Hey it's a start of a suggestion. Any recommendations how we can improve it? >_<
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#16 Anpanman

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:15 PM

Amateur hour.

The means to take down bots exists:

http://mll.csie.ntu....s/bot_ident.pdf

Implementing the system will cost money, taking bots out will cost money because they spend money to. Gravity does not have money:

http://postimage.org/image/2rz3d79t0/

http://www.google.co...e?q=NASDAQ:GRVY


And while I'm posting, people need to stop giving Heimdall so much :o, that poor guy is doing his best and all I ever see people do is complain. He is the middle man, it's like watching a bunch of old people at the movies yelling at the guy at the ticket counter cause the movie sucked. (Yes this last bit is off topic for this post atm)


I agree that this is a good way to take down bots. I question their robustness analysis at the end, but it seems to make sense. Bots can respond to avoid detection, but only at the cost of becoming only as effective as... humans. They will, as purported by the authors, not affect the market as significantly. Sure, okay, coupled with a "okay this guy has been active for a week straight with no breaks, he's probably a bot" procedure, yes. This method can be effective. But by no means is it the only effective way - and as I'm not familiar with the cost of developing software, I can't comment directly on that.

Nonetheless, if your conclusive statement that Gravity is a failing company and cannot afford to implement anti-bot procedures is true, then we're all SOL, right? It's bailing water now, and just milking us for whatever we are willing to shell out.

I don't believe that's the case. (And even if it is, then all our discussion is moot, we'll just enjoy it for what it is until the end.) When Gravity shifted P2P to F2P and a micro transaction model, I think the goal was to shift from a "we have something great, pay and find out" model, to "come play what we have, it's great! and you can enhance your experience by purchasing in-game stuff". The argument we're making is that, in order for this model to succeed - it would be beneficial to offer a better baseline experience by eliminating/limiting the egregiousness of bots and their effect on the community and economy.

The bots currently taint the game experience - it's fun, but lackluster for their presence. "I enjoy the game, but man, those bots. Am I gonna pay money and still have to deal with them?" It's kind of a damper on things. It produces a stop and think moment about bots and the quality of experience I'm currently getting, when really it should just be "Do I wanna buy this item? How good is it? How much more fun am I going to have?"

So, yeah, even if not explicitly stated, I think we operate under the understanding that improving the experience by reducing bots will help with the current F2P business model and RO's economic viability.
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#17 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:30 PM

I agree that this is a good way to take down bots. I question their robustness analysis at the end, but it seems to make sense. Bots can respond to avoid detection, but only at the cost of becoming only as effective as... humans. They will, as purported by the authors, not affect the market as significantly. Sure, okay, coupled with a "okay this guy has been active for a week straight with no breaks, he's probably a bot" procedure, yes. This method can be effective. But by no means is it the only effective way - and as I'm not familiar with the cost of developing software, I can't comment directly on that.

Nonetheless, if your conclusive statement that Gravity is a failing company and cannot afford to implement anti-bot procedures is true, then we're all SOL, right? It's bailing water now, and just milking us for whatever we are willing to shell out.

I don't believe that's the case. (And even if it is, then all our discussion is moot, we'll just enjoy it for what it is until the end.) When Gravity shifted P2P to F2P and a micro transaction model, I think the goal was to shift from a "we have something great, pay and find out" model, to "come play what we have, it's great! and you can enhance your experience by purchasing in-game stuff". The argument we're making is that, in order for this model to succeed - it would be beneficial to offer a better baseline experience by eliminating/limiting the egregiousness of bots and their effect on the community and economy.

The bots currently taint the game experience - it's fun, but lackluster for their presence. "I enjoy the game, but man, those bots. Am I gonna pay money and still have to deal with them?" It's kind of a damper on things. It produces a stop and think moment about bots and the quality of experience I'm currently getting, when really it should just be "Do I wanna buy this item? How good is it? How much more fun am I going to have?"

So, yeah, even if not explicitly stated, I think we operate under the understanding that improving the experience by reducing bots will help with the current F2P business model and RO's economic viability.



tl;dr but I agree.
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#18 Pyrasia

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:44 PM

What they need is a group of Volunteers to help.

One thing they can do is randomly pick day and time and announce ingame they they will 'Bring Down THIS MAP and everyone has to leave within 3 minutes'. Keep spamming that for 3 minutes. Then BAN/or report directly to someone who can ban everyone "who is moving" in that map. Done. Move on to next map.

Edited by Pyrasia, 22 June 2011 - 03:45 PM.

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#19 renouille

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:37 PM

Hey it's a start of a suggestion. Any recommendations how we can improve it? >_<

No, not really. This idea, and minor variants, have been proposed countless times, and they've been shot down each time.

Jeezus Christ you people blew right over what I said as if it wasn't real. Youre in denial, that anti-botting measures exist they simply won't be implemented because its not economically sound to ban accounts which are giving a struggling company money, to appease the whines of the community. I've been in this game since beta. Even in Gravitys glory days they didn't get rid of all the bots, all of your suggestions have been brought up before, stop wasting your time and go do something productive because bots aren't going to be solved everrrr. Its a money issue. The solution is right in the link it's a professional computer science study on BOTS in RAGNAROK and it shows exactly how to tell who are bots based on minimal packet transmissions. But it hasn't been implemented despite publishing 5 years ago! Give up, they don't care to wipe bots off the face of ragnarok plain and simple, and if you don't like that join the rest of the community that got bitter about it and got over it or left. Your ragnarok does not exist, ragnarok is not a fair game, those with money and thus kafra points, or those who bot, win, plane and simple. All you can hope to do is hope to enjoy the game for yourself. And when you start to feel you can't enjoy it because of bots, you better get to movin on because in all the years this game has been around, despite all the solutions, none have or will be implemented. For educations sake: Any of your ideas that are not data form based like in the document I linked to are fail. Data transmission is key to identifying bots all other measures become client side and are circumventable.

Since you say this is "real", I suppose you can name some games where this system is deployed?

Five years? The version of the paper I have (which is longer) was accepted for publication in 2008. The short version you linked has references dated 2007. Did you even read the paper? If so, did you notice the glaring instances of hasty generalization and handwaving, or were you hoping we wouldn't notice?

Here, let's say I've come up with automated methods to distinguish Roombas from humans by tracing their movement across the floor. Let's also call two of these humans "pros" because they've been vacuuming casually for more than a year and own slightly more sophisticated than average vacuum cleaners. Never mind that the Roombas were designed solely to clean floors (in a rather dumb way, too), and not to emulate human behavior--my methods are able to tell them apart 90% of the time! I've thought of some inefficient ways the Roombas could try to defeat them, but they would make them inefficient, and I don't think they would work anyway.

Do you think this research would be publishable?

Mathematicians in other disciplines have derided theoretical computer science for focusing on quantity over quality and publishing massive numbers of papers, many of which are of low quality. After reading this one, I could see where they were coming from.


By the way, I don't deny that automated methods are useful, and I still think that the most promising way to combat bots is to adapt such methods to more efficiently direct human effort. I'm just saying that the paper features questionable methodology and very sloppy research and really shouldn't be offered as the ultimate solution, period.
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#20 valgissn

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

The solution to combat the bots is obviously to make the game PvP. That way we can kill each other and also the bots
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#21 Scuba

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:34 AM

ingame pvp. I like your style.

PS Ren is my favorite.
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#22 kati3

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 04:53 AM

Amateur hour.

The means to take down bots exists:

http://mll.csie.ntu....s/bot_ident.pdf

Implementing the system will cost money, taking bots out will cost money because they spend money to. Gravity does not have money:

http://postimage.org/image/2rz3d79t0/

http://www.google.co...e?q=NASDAQ:GRVY


And while I'm posting, people need to stop giving Heimdall so much :), that poor guy is doing his best and all I ever see people do is complain. He is the middle man, it's like watching a bunch of old people at the movies yelling at the guy at the ticket counter cause the movie sucked. (Yes this last bit is off topic for this post atm)


WTF is a sorcery ritual?
That paper seems to be written by someone who knows nothing about the game.

Edited by kati3, 24 June 2011 - 04:58 AM.

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#23 Anpanman

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 05:53 PM

Also, to the people dismissing things as QQ'ing, or non-constructive criticism: it's important to give feedback and complain about things you don't like, even if you don't have the solution. By telling the developers what is really bothering you and ticking you off about your experience, you give them great information on how to improve the experience and get our $$!

And re: the bots? I'm going to go out on a limb here - I'd say on ANY given map, there are more bots than players. It feels like it's out of control, and has gotten worse in the last few weeks.

I think anyone who thinks it is a major problem should voice their concern over the increasing bot numbers. Not in a shouting way, but like a general petition. Suggestions for improvement, great. If not, just voice your concern. Hopefully we can impress someone with how detrimental bots are to the RO gameplay.
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#24 Scuba

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 08:25 PM

One thing I was confused about was what kind of botting people find the most offensive. Using bots to level, hunting items with bots, running battlegrounds with bots, spam bots, or some other kind of bot? I personally don't care about people who are leveling their characters by botting, considering I can level 100x more efficiently in person and probably outperform them in pvp.
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#25 Anpanman

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:21 AM

Is it possible to report things that are not necessarily "illegitimate", but strongly suggestive of botting? For instance:

http://ragial.com/sh...alkyrie/4052307

It's basically a merchant, HampasLupa, selling the following:

Flora Card 32x
Dead Branch 351x
Elder Branch 9x
Green Ale 465x
Savage Meat 17x
Snake Card 235x
Spore Card 67x
Rough Elunium 136x
Wormtail Card 58x
Alligator Card 127x

True, it could be a conglomeration of the efforts of many newbs, or the savvy trading of a merchant. But... maybe not? So what are the odds that this could be handled? And if we cut suspicious activites at the marketplace... can that stem the tide of bots? At least those of the zeny farming/item farming sort?

Yeah, we don't want to get too close to the line - I myself have come across a number of cards; I don't want to be accused of botting after saving them up for years and then selling them at once. But the instance above - probably pretty far from the line, if you ask me. Maybe the GM's can put together some resources and be able to track where people are getting their items - yes, basically a backlog to investigate when players draw their attention to suspicious merchant activity. Overall, this may end up netting more bots than going after the bots individually, no?
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