23 replies to this topic

[cybernetic]

(All my suggestions come with the knowledge of the April 13 skill changes/balances and relate to the ideal of GUILD VERSUS GUILD)

1) Change Neutral Barrier (Stealth field should stay at 5x5) to a 7x7 AoE (up from the 5x5 buff from the April 13 skill changes). 5x5 is a nice change but it is still JUST TOO SMALL. If iRO was much more popular, maybe it would be possible to get the ~ 4 150 mechs needed to pull this off, but right now its just not the case. 7x7 would be a perfect size, the same size that all bard/gypsy skills are.
2) Change the cooldown of Neutral Barrier and Stealth field to 0~10 seconds. As both are canceled by Ganban/Crazy Vines if they were canceled then there would be basically a one~two minute wait before you can recast them... 10 seconds is fair and is long enough to do enough damage before they can recast it. In a perfect world though I'd prefer NO cooldown, but if I suggest 10 seconds maybe you'll go along with it. Refer to Jax5's post below for more suggestions.
3) Implement somekind of counter to Cursed Circle and Stasis in WoE, either by reducing their effect duration, making them not affect people ontop of magnetic earth or neutral barrier or disabling them in WoE. There is not way to defend yourself against them. Its a pointless argument if you think its balanced, it is completely not.

Let's recap on counters to skills:

Hell's plant, Manhole, Vacuum (+all ground targeted "magic" skills) countered by Magnetic Earth.
Jack Frost, Chain lighting, Frost Misty (+all magic) countered by Neutral barrier
Dragon Breath, GoH, Knucle Arrow (+all ranged) countered by Neutral barrier (although until a shorter cooldown + bigger aoe its basically useless!)
Deep Sleep, Howling countered by April 13 skill balance with AB buffs
White Imprison countered by ghost magic + status recovery
Neutral barrier/Magnetic earth countered by gamban, crazy vines etc
Reflect damage countered by emptying the rg's sp/white imprison
Asura (fury) countered by dispell spam/sphere absorb
Self destruction countered by being alert and spell breaking and/or disabling spells
Then there are also all the other counter spells such as death bound and crescent elbow to kill melee attackers aslong as their attacks were high enough (with skills such as asura, storm blast, etc)

Now as you can see, only Cursed Circle and Stasis remain as having no direct counters to stop them from destroying a rush.

Thoughts?


tl;dr version:

1) make neutral barrier a 7x7 aoe (or 9x9), with a walking speed reduction (so the mechanic itself walks slower, noone else) (0% and level 1 (3x3 aoe), 20% at level 2 (7x7 aoe), 40% at level 3 (9x9 aoe))
2) make neutral barrier have a short to no cool down
3) do something about cursed circle and stasis

Edited by cybernetic, 28 June 2011 - 12:12 AM.

[JAYRAD]

forewarning: i play a sura therefore am biased; and please note that these are my opinions to be considered, not "copy paste these ideas 'heimdaddy'"~

Stasis: should be resisted by a stat like howling is, yes it is impossible (c/d) to 100% resist howling so in my opinion stasis should work the same way. this is probably the most broken of all the disabling skills just because there is nothing that can be done about it when its happening, especially if its being portal casted. (also useable in pvm but that's another thread.) the only thing that people have against the skill is that there isnt a thing that can be done and this should be addressed. luk should increase your resistance to this effect in the same way that it does for howling. i know it seems like a cop-out but there really is no other way to do it, make it an obscure stat that no one but a re-caller would invest massive amounts of points in.

CC: should work like that floating skill description or like this
level 1: 3x3 aoe, 3 sec duration 100% chance to "catch" enemies
level 2: 3x3 aoe, 4 sec duration 95% chance
level 3 5x5 aoe, 5 sec duration 90% chance
level 4 5x5 aoe, 6 sec duration 85% chance
level 5 7x7 aoe, 7 sec duration 80% chance

i really like the inverse relationship of the skill it is really just about the only way to balance it. it doesnt necessarily have to be 5% per level, i think even 3% will be fine just because there is nothing else to counter it.


i honestly dont know enough about the mechanic skills to say what should be fixed and what needs to be nerfed. they are still right in the middle of being identified as truly supportive or melee. the devs really want there to be the capability of dps kills in woe but the way that people play the game it just isnt possible. a lot of the mado skills are underwhelming save for a handful (lookin at u suicide) and they dont get any better with the woe reductions.

dragon breath is not reduced by demi-human redux, not reduced by noxious card but is reduced by glorious ring/kafra blossom card and alligator cards. very very inconsistent reductions, it should be across the board reduced by ranged reduction, or racial reduction, or elemental reduction.

Edited by JAYRAD, 27 June 2011 - 10:58 PM.

[Viri]

Reflect damage isn't dispellable.

[Unifan]

you can counter cursed circle by using strom blast.

[cybernetic]

you can counter cursed circle by using strom blast.

barely a counter, but alright. will be more of a counter when the ygg cooldown comes into play!

[Mischelle]

OP fails just as every other post for "fixing" things fails.

The answer is always: Revert to Pre-Comodo.

[cybernetic]

OP fails just as every other post for "fixing" things fails.

The answer is always: Revert to Pre-Comodo.

And of course, they wouldn't do this. Renewal isn't going anywhere.

All i'm suggesting is three things:

Do something about neutral barrier to make it more central to GvG (as ME was pre-re)
Do something about cursed circle
Do something about stasis

End

[Staymadandbad]

Basically, you want to make a skill that already hinders people to a certain extent, hinder them quite farther. The skill is fine at 5x5.

To all of you uneducated people, if it was made to +7, that would allow ALOT more people, (almost a whole guild) to be protected by it. 7x7 and 5x5 might not seem like a big difference, but thats 25 people protected vs. 49.

Gms, do NOT LISTEN to the OP.






No.

[cybernetic]

Basically, you want to make a skill that already hinders people to a certain extent, hinder them quite farther. The skill is fine at 5x5.

To all of you uneducated people, if it was made to +7, that would allow ALOT more people, (almost a whole guild) to be protected by it. 7x7 and 5x5 might not seem like a big difference, but thats 25 people protected vs. 49.

Gms, do NOT LISTEN to the OP.






No.

Laz, do you really think 49 people can walk in it at the same time? You have to be kidding. Don't try to troll please!

Just because the area of a 7x7 aoe is 49 cells doesn't mean 49 people can all be immune to this. If it was like that would be noone would ever die on magnetic earth, and never EVER walk off it. Yet here we are.

The point here is for moving fights, not standing precasts. And of course it hinders people, it hinders them for good reason. Neutral barrier can be canceled just like magnetic earth was canceled, I don't see what the problem is.

Neutral barrier isnt like strings, you can't be in it then walk out and be magically immune for 20 seconds, you have to be in it at all times to get the benefits.

[Staymadandbad]

Laz, do you really think 49 people can walk in it at the same time? You have to be kidding. Don't try to troll please!

Just because the area of a 7x7 aoe is 49 cells doesn't mean 49 people can all be immune to this. If it was like that would be noone would ever die on magnetic earth, and never EVER walk off it. Yet here we are.

The point here is for moving fights, not standing precasts. And of course it hinders people, it hinders them for good reason. Neutral barrier can be canceled just like magnetic earth was canceled, I don't see what the problem is.

Neutral barrier isnt like strings, you can't be in it then walk out and be magically immune for 20 seconds, you have to be in it at all times to get the benefits.

Me trolling? I just explained hard facts with math involved, SIMPLE math. This isn't about trolling, unless you want to call common sense trolling. You sound angry for some reason, let your tension loose and quit trying to play God. Are you trying to say that if a Mechanic was a guild leader, that his neutral barrier (at 7x7 range) would just magically not work on Recall? There are ways to pull off recalls as any class, at all. Even rune knight could be a damn fine recaller with milenium shield and a frilldora card (yeah youd need like 3 maya purples to stop him though) Speed potion + frilldora card and 4 runes circling him. Mechanic could recall and have their whole guild protected with too huge of an advantage.

It's too strong also especially as a defensive manuever. Putting up neutral barrier on 7x7 in emperium room?

[cybernetic]

Me trolling? I just explained hard facts with math involved, SIMPLE math. This isn't about trolling, unless you want to call common sense trolling. You sound angry for some reason, let your tension loose and quit trying to play God. Are you trying to say that if a Mechanic was a guild leader, that his neutral barrier (at 7x7 range) would just magically not work on Recall? There are ways to pull off recalls as any class, at all. Even rune knight could be a damn fine recaller with milenium shield and a frilldora card (yeah youd need like 3 maya purples to stop him though) Speed potion + frilldora card and 4 runes circling him. Mechanic could recall and have their whole guild protected with too huge of an advantage.

It's too strong also especially as a defensive manuever. Putting up neutral barrier on 7x7 in emperium room?

It would be too strong if there was no counters to neutral barrier laz, which there are... one crazy vines (or ganban, or that rg skill) and neutral barrier is gone.

Think of neutral barrier + magnetic earth as the new ME battles of renewal. 7x7 is the size of strings, it is the perfect size for it.

And how is it too strong in an emperium room when the attacking force can still have that aswell? I don't see your point.

[jax5]

+1 to the change suggestions.

I actually think neutral barrier should be 9x9 at max level, with short re-use (considering the ease of its counter), but come with penalty of self movement reduction (more reduction per higher level, 0% and 3x3 at lv1). Mechanics do not excel at dps (outside of SD); more powerful buffs/debuffs (neutral barrier, cloak field, magnetic field, etc.) would give them a unique and meaningful power, while retaining the ability to add assist damage.

Stasis is sort of balanced in it's inability to effect certain physical attacks and very long re-use delay. IMO, it's sort of necessary to have some type of universal pre-cast break skill (so that more fighting actually occurs). I think the problems with the skill are the frustrations caused by: portal casting, no debuff icon, magic killer/support classes being unable to do most anything, and no real stat/skill counters.

I agree that Cursed Circle could use some better type of counters. 1x storm blast, even with good gear, shouldn't be able to kill a sura who's matching rune cost in pots (like ales). I would suggest cursed circle be changed to a point-blank ground target effect, counterable by ME, maelstrom, ganbantein, crazy vines, earth drive, etc.

Thoughts on current counters, my opinions in bold:

Let's recap on counters to skills:

Hell's plant, Manhole, Vacuum (+all ground targeted "magic" skills) countered by Magnetic Earth, Maelstrom, ganbantein, and crazy vines
Jack Frost, Chain lighting, Frost Misty (+all magic) countered by Neutral barrier. Freezing/Frozen effects from FM/JF partially countered by warmer (it has a long re-use delay).
Dragon Breath, GoH, Knucle Arrow (+all ranged) countered by Neutral barrier (although until a shorter cooldown + bigger aoe its basically useless!), pneuma, defending aura sacrifice, and lv3 fire expansion.
Deep Sleep, Howling countered by April 13 skill balance with AB buffs
White Imprison countered by ghost magic + status recovery + dispel + very high str, and for tanks: nosiege rune, inspiration
Neutral barrier/Magnetic earth countered by gamban, crazy vines etc
Reflect damage countered by emptying the rg's sp /white imprison / masquerade weakness. SP removal via soul siphon, tiger cannon (sort of ), metallic sound (if it got a needed buff), and Dark Priest carded weapons (if the proc rate actually did stated 5% instead of .5%).
Asura (fury) countered by dispell spam/sphere absorb
Self destruction countered by being alert and spell breaking and/or disabling spells. It's both difficult for a mech to get in a key position and to counter secramented SD. I don't know if these factors alone would be a popular balance.
Then there are also all the other counter spells such as death bound and crescent elbow to kill melee attackers aslong as their attacks were high enough (with skills such as asura, storm blast, etc)

Now as you can see, only Cursed Circle and Stasis remain as having no direct counters to stop them from destroying a rush.

Thoughts?

[jax5]

Basically, you want to make a skill that already hinders people to a certain extent, hinder them quite farther. The skill is fine at 5x5.

To all of you uneducated people, if it was made to +7, that would allow ALOT more people, (almost a whole guild) to be protected by it. 7x7 and 5x5 might not seem like a big difference, but thats 25 people protected vs. 49.

Gms, do NOT LISTEN to the OP.






No.

Insta cast crazy vines removing neutral barrier from range?

Neutral barrier is already a double-edged sword? (can protect enemy tanks)

Edited by jax5, 27 June 2011 - 09:08 PM.

[Staymadandbad]

It would be too strong if there was no counters to neutral barrier laz, which there are... one crazy vines (or ganban, or that rg skill) and neutral barrier is gone.

Think of neutral barrier + magnetic earth as the new ME battles of renewal. 7x7 is the size of strings, it is the perfect size for it.

And how is it too strong in an emperium room when the attacking force can still have that aswell? I don't see your point.

Well look at it this way, what they need to do is fool with the counters to the skill and bring them slightly down so that its equal with neutral barrier, not fool with the area of effect on Neutral barrier. Increasing it to 7x7 is way too powerful. 5x5 was pushing it. There are other reasons that I don't want to type here that I came up with in my head that would make neutral barrier exploitable to more than 3-4 different important WoE skills if placed in 7x7 size change.

[arsn89]

(All my suggestions come with the knowledge of the April 13 skill changes/balances and relate to the ideal of GUILD VERSUS GUILD)

1) Change Neutral Barrier (Stealth field should stay at 5x5) to a 7x7 AoE (up from the 5x5 buff from the April 13 skill changes). 5x5 is a nice change but it is still JUST TOO SMALL. If iRO was much more popular, maybe it would be possible to get the ~ 4 150 mechs needed to pull this off, but right now its just not the case. 7x7 would be a perfect size, the same size that all bard/gypsy skills are.
2) Change the cooldown of Neutral Barrier and Stealth field to 10 seconds. As both are canceled by Ganban/Crazy Vines if they were canceled then there would be basically a one~two minute wait before you can recast them... 10 seconds is fair and is long enough to do enough damage before they can recast it. In a perfect world though I'd prefer NO cooldown, but if I suggest 10 seconds maybe you'll go along with it.
3) Implement somekind of counter to Cursed Circle and Stasis in WoE, either by reducing their effect duration, making them not affect people ontop of magnetic earth or neutral barrier or disabling them in WoE. There is not way to defend yourself against them. Its a pointless argument if you think its balanced, it is completely not.

Let's recap on counters to skills:

Hell's plant, Manhole, Vacuum (+all ground targeted "magic" skills) countered by Magnetic Earth.
Jack Frost, Chain lighting, Frost Misty (+all magic) countered by Neutral barrier
Dragon Breath, GoH, Knucle Arrow (+all ranged) countered by Neutral barrier (although until a shorter cooldown + bigger aoe its basically useless!)
Deep Sleep, Howling countered by April 13 skill balance with AB buffs
White Imprison countered by ghost magic + status recovery
Neutral barrier/Magnetic earth countered by gamban, crazy vines etc
Reflect damage countered by emptying the rg's sp/white imprison
Asura (fury) countered by dispell spam/sphere absorb
Self destruction countered by being alert and spell breaking and/or disabling spells
Then there are also all the other counter spells such as death bound and crescent elbow to kill melee attackers aslong as their attacks were high enough (with skills such as asura, storm blast, etc)

Now as you can see, only Cursed Circle and Stasis remain as having no direct counters to stop them from destroying a rush.

Thoughts?

lol TL

Edited by arsn89, 27 June 2011 - 10:31 PM.

[cybernetic]

just for you bro

[Unifan]

barely a counter, but alright. will be more of a counter when the ygg cooldown comes into play!

uh no, storm blast -_-in rapes, when a guild recall and got cursed circle, there should be more than 3RK spaming storm blast to disable that sura. it doesn't even take 3RK to disable it, a double meged RK on ymir can kill sura in seconds, other than that, dnt blame suras that you guys dnt have the characters for woe to counter it.

[cybernetic]

:333 o u unifan

[Heimdallr]

I cannot make any changes to how skills work until after the build with the updated skill balances is installed. This is scheduled for Late July or early August. Let's revisit this subject then with what further needs to change.

I would rather do minimal sweeping changes so that we don't have to "unchange" things later, doing 3 passes of changes on a skill all at once may over power/nerf it.

[Akin]

I cannot make any changes to how skills work until after the build with the updated skill balances is installed. This is scheduled for Late July or early August. Let's revisit this subject then with what further needs to change.

I would rather do minimal sweeping changes so that we don't have to "unchange" things later, doing 3 passes of changes on a skill all at once may over power/nerf it.

Yes, please don't change anything until we get those kRO changes.

Also, are the skill updates being delayed because we're going to be getting all the recent kRO changes? Or are we still only getting the changes from April?

[cybernetic]

I cannot make any changes to how skills work until after the build with the updated skill balances is installed. This is scheduled for Late July or early August. Let's revisit this subject then with what further needs to change.

I would rather do minimal sweeping changes so that we don't have to "unchange" things later, doing 3 passes of changes on a skill all at once may over power/nerf it.

Well, how about just changing neutral barrier? Just to test how it would go? Then we can report back to kRO how it went.

It's just a thought heim, but its something which will dramatically improve gvg the woe scene!

Edited by cybernetic, 29 June 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Dantemss]

Wanna know the smallest change that would make the biggest difference?

Make blue pots the first item on the normal potion book list.

Hell, just give us spiritual potion creation for blues. Let it replace the fat white one.

And the effect this would have would be simple: (hopefully) less guild leaders quitting. I am entirely serious about this.

Edited by Dantemss, 28 June 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[cybernetic]

bump.

[cybernetic]

!!