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Upgrading and how to encourage it


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#1 Codface

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:29 AM

I will open my case with the following stat

+10 on a lvl 4 weapon/armor is around 34% chance per 1000 HD ores used.

Now I think thats rather high and lets face it everyone knows someone who spend 1000s of HD ores and got nothing but ended with a +7 weapon/armor at the end and basically gave up playing because of it.

I think a reward scheme needs to be introduced. So the game doesnt lose these players who get annoyed and leave when they spend $200 dollars of rl money to get nothing while there lucky friend some how does it inside a $10.

My idea is that every time you attempt a HD ore upgrade you get a bind on account 'upgrade coin', these can be traded in at an npc for something like

50 coins (safe to 5)
50 coins (safe attempt to 6)
50 coins (safe attempt to 7)
500 coins (safe 8 to 9)
750 coints (safe 9 to 10)
1250 coins (safe 13 to 14)
1250 coins (safe 14 to 15)

This would really be nice and stop that awful ':dunno: this game' feeling people get when they have spend all their zeny and hundreds of dollars with absolutly nothing to show for it except in most cases a downgraded item. It would be like a mini reward scheme. It would also sell more ores since people will think well I'm on 600 coins so might as well buy another 150 then I'll get my +10 the hard way and encourage people to try for 13 since most leave stuff at 12 now (thus more sales).

Feel free to post to give your opinions guys.
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#2 SoroTrestal

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:45 AM

I want to upgrade my +8 Glorious Cure Wand but don't feel like spending 200$ on it. (or if i'm lucky 10$ what prob. will never happen)

Nice Idea, and the coins should be Midgard Coins ;-)

Edited by SoroTrestal, 30 June 2011 - 01:46 AM.

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#3 Codface

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:22 AM

I dont think its an unreasonable suggestion. I can see it selling more Ore and I can see it keeping players who'd otherwise be really annoyed happy. It might even encourage those who thing its pointless trying because I'll end up with nothing having a go.
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#4 Xerloris

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:05 AM

It's a nice idea in theory but the fact is, anything above +9 on a kvm weapon is extremely powerful. To the point of game breaking. It was a mistake to allow this in the first place, they need not make them even easier to get.

I had a thought about this earlier tonight. What they need to do is make a KVM item for every slot. Head/shield is what I am referring to. There needs to be an end all be all for pvp gear that gives high demi reduction and a much larger HP pool to lower HP classes. Priests surely need a higher HP pool.

Edited by Xerloris, 30 June 2011 - 04:07 AM.

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#5 Myzery

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:40 AM

You know the risk before you do it though. I think that they should list the % chance of it upgrading.
My biggest gripe is it costing 20k per attempt and it being able to go below +4. I'm sure everyone has been on a streak of a weapon going +3 +4 +3 +4 and so on.

I wanted to test my luck a while back and tried to +10 my KvM jur, but failed.
Then yesterday, I buy 500 ore and use 420 with no luck on getting it to +9. I go and buy 500 more, then +9 both my jamadhar and bloodyroar in around 15 ore.
Pretty annoying, but it's my fault being stuck with over 500 ore.

I also bought the kafra points from another player, so I can't really complain, but I do feel for someone who spends hundreds and gets nothing.
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#6 Kadelia

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:41 AM

I want to upgrade my +8 Glorious Cure Wand but don't feel like spending 200$ on it. (or if i'm lucky 10$ what prob. will never happen)

Nice Idea, and the coins should be Midgard Coins ;-)

I spent like $200 getting one to +7 cause I broke 5 before the 6th went +7, but then only spent like $40 +10'ing it. if yours is +8 you could very well get it done inside of $50 if you're having a good day.

It's a nice idea in theory but the fact is, anything above +9 on a kvm weapon is extremely powerful. To the point of game breaking.

its not.. most of them have only +2% damage vs demi human per upgrade as their effects beyond +9. A few, like cure wand, have an effect at +10, but then are just +2% after that, still.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2011 - 04:43 AM.

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#7 Codface

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:44 AM

You know the risk before you do it though. I think that they should list the % chance of it upgrading.
My biggest gripe is it costing 20k per attempt and it being able to go below +4. I'm sure everyone has been on a streak of a weapon going +3 +4 +3 +4 and so on.


True and I have no problems with the risks involved since its gambling.

However ask any casino and the best way to keep people coming back for more is freebies. Anyone who been to Vegas knows they give free drinks. Even if ppl lose they go away thinking at least I got some free drinks out of it and it was fun. In the case of high rollers in Vegas casinos give them all sorts of things ranging from Cars to free hotel suites. We all know deep down these things arent free at all but it gives the illusion that the casino cares a bit and isnt purely in it to make the money from gambling.

My point is that it shouldnt be a few win big and the rest go away with nothing at all. The system needs a free drinks type idea so that the majority dont go away feeling robbed and insted with the mentally ah well next time.

Edited by Codface, 30 June 2011 - 05:48 AM.

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#8 Kitten

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:57 AM

The Midgard Coins are the free drinks.

We wanted a way to get rid of old Lucky Box items that let them still retain some value. We got it.

We wanted a way to upgrade to +7 safely again. We got it.
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#9 Codface

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:30 AM

The Midgard Coins are the free drinks.


I'd totally be happy with getting something like 5 midgard coins free per upgrade attempt. That way if I used say 120 HD ores worst case I'd have 600 coins to spend on making an item safe to 7 etc.
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#10 ItalianChild

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:45 AM

meh i think maybe just a thing that lets you get a SAFE ATTMEPT to +10 and thats it. maybe like a once a month thing? You get a free chance at upgrading a +9 gear to +10 without chance of breaking. Keeps the spamming rate from doing it low, along with that it gives players a decent chance at getting something they want upgraded to +10 without being weary.

I do also have to add, the availability to make something +7 readily available with ease, well its GREAT for us, but then its great for others and for being competitive. Well.. yea it makes it a bit hard for when people with the larger wallets rape those with little to no money at all.

ON ANOTHER NOTE!!! it just makes things such as the skull cap and its use of +10 gears. well it makes it a bit of a peeve because then your like, well crap i wish i could have a +10 thorny.. but blaaahhhhh... Whereas if you got that 10% shot each month at getting it +10 id be pleased and patient^^

Edited by ItalianChild, 30 June 2011 - 06:49 AM.

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#11 Trini

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:46 AM

+1 on the idea about this system.
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#12 DarkDan

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:48 AM

I think the hat recycler was a brilliant idea. As long as they throw out something like that from time to time i'll be happy. They don't need to make it easier to +10 stuff. I personally don't have anything +10 yet because I know how much its likely going to cost. I spend around $30 to +9 stuff on average and can live with the cost. If you +10 something you are basically getting +11 because its not going to fall below +10 when you upgrade. Anything +11 or higher is going to be really strong. I have heard having a +12 kvm katar is almost the same as having a Meg equiped. Do we really want a lot of people running around with items like that.

Give me a chance to +7 things without breaking from time to time is all I need. People should be happy with that really. The Hat Recycler allows people to do safe upgrade without throwing down real money. Its a way to even the playing field so to speak for kids that don't spend real cash on the game. People can't really complain because its a win/win for everybody. It makes the hats more valuable so people can make zeny off the useless hats and allows people to upgrade valuable items(kvm gear) without fear of breaking and without spending real cash.
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#13 Kadelia

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:05 AM

Here was something I had PMed to Heim long before the midgard coins that he didn't agree with:

Hello Heim,

I thought I'd share an idea with you I was having, in case you cared to listen (who knows, after you adopted the idea that led to Takius Blinder). I've not been too happy with the slotted mids being in the boxes, as have a lot of people I've spoken to. Main point being it's too much of a good thing. Regardless of the S-class rate you're dispensing them, dozens appear on the server, which causes a supply>demand situation with their only practical use (MVP cards). Market is flooded with them, they're devalued, and this once epic item is kind of lackluster now. Moreover, its made the account-bound mids (which were actually fair) pretty silly.

At any rate, I feel that consumable items would make more popular additions to the lucky boxes if they are done right. Much like Prize Medals were popular lucky box draws before Renewal weakened their value substantially, you can have a temporary sink that goes away with other types of consumables. The one I had in mind is thus: a voucher for a safe, +1 upgrade to any item. This would ONLY work if it was equally rare to the Glasses[1] from the last event. Too many of these and people will complain how easy it is to make +9~+20 weapons. Few enough of them, and people will cherish them to get their +9 Glorious Cure Wand to +10 (etc). I don't really see a balance issue if someone pays $1,000 to get like 8 of these and makes a +20 weapon or armor. It'd be unrealistic for them to do their entire set of gear with the S-class rarity of the vouchers. Upgrades aren't so powerful as they were pre-renewal, either.

More events like the boxter lady doing the safe +5, maybe another event that works from +5 to +6, and safe +1 vouchers (VERY RARE), and you'd open up a path to people making +20 items that isn't easy or very repeatable, and won't devalue any game items (+9 gear wouldn't be devalued as anyone can push something to +11 without losing the base item atm, with HD ore). The safe upgrade NPC could also charge like 5m or something.

Also with this mechanic in the game, you could also satisfy the anti-cash shop people with an in-game quest (with high material cost) that allows you to make this voucher in-game, but it would be a 1-time quest per character. With a high enough time investment/material cost, people wouldn't be able to farm them.

Also if you make the voucher tradable you'll probably make more money off the box event as people who don't need it will gamble to get it just so they can resell it. Also anti-cash shop people will have an avenue to attain it, which will quiet them some.


Heim's disagreement was mostly along the lines of whether or not this would actually be profitable in a lucky box and how the community would react to it.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2011 - 07:09 AM.

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#14 PhenixFire

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:49 AM

True and I have no problems with the risks involved since its gambling.

However ask any casino and the best way to keep people coming back for more is freebies. Anyone who been to Vegas knows they give free drinks. Even if ppl lose they go away thinking at least I got some free drinks out of it and it was fun. In the case of high rollers in Vegas casinos give them all sorts of things ranging from Cars to free hotel suites. We all know deep down these things arent free at all but it gives the illusion that the casino cares a bit and isnt purely in it to make the money from gambling.

My point is that it shouldnt be a few win big and the rest go away with nothing at all. The system needs a free drinks type idea so that the majority dont go away feeling robbed and insted with the mentally ah well next time.


My state has 3 large casino's here, and i've spent a lot of time with the hotel managers and casino floor managers and I can tell you casino's don't actually care about giving you anything,they give you free drinks because drinking lowers your inhibitions and you'll gamble more, (drinks are normally free only if you're gambling.) This follows suit with why they pump oxygen into casino's and have women with low cut clothing serving you those drinks, any reason to get your gambling more. People who gamble all the time don't look at the players club perks as free, they look at it as an additional add on them gambling. They believe "well the money is going to be spent, at least I can get a room night, or some free play or something." They clearly understand they don't accumulate the perks without putting the cash down to gamble first.

I believe encouraging people to upgrade comes with the rewards of upgrading and not the chances. As you can see, people are already willing to blow lots of cash just to get a +9 KVM weapon because it is the be all end all. Most people automatically think upgrading = kvm weapons, and that's kinda sad. Unless they literally put a upgrade = better use of the armor/wep only perfectionists will take anything past 4-7. If you make the chances better for people, eventually they will get what they desire and stop. I think as a business you'd never want to give your players a reason to stop gambling, or stop pumping cash into the machine.

In short, I do like the idea of a "reward system" but I'd rather see the rewards be in the effects of getting a high upgraded item vs the chances to get a high upgraded item. It's like everyone and their mom has a +9kvm weapon, when in reality the chance should be small that it gives the average person a chance to have a godly item.
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#15 Charon

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:23 AM

It would be fun if such a system was implemented for upgrading in general, not just HD ores...

I've been thinking about this in the past.
Well actually about everything that involves low chances. There is a point when something is so unlikely that it gets unreasonable.

Basically the solution would be making a limit after which there is a sure success.

For example, the limit for failing to upgrade a lv3 weapon could be a random number between 10 and 20.
So if it ever happened that someone broke 10 lv3 weapons in a row, they could only fail 9 more times with the worst luck. Of course everytime there is a successful upgrade, the counter resets to 0.

This way you would be assured that you will eventually succeed.
Because of the varying limit, you could not aim to break crap in order to ensure a safe upgrade on a desired equip. Well, unless you would have the worst luck possible, failing 19 times in a row, giving you a sure upgrade to whatever you want.


That would be for upgrades. Not sure how a limit on monsters not dropping rares even after killing 20k could be made to work.
Would be cool though. Imagine you want to hunt for a particular rare drop.
Currently, its likely you won't find one fast and in most cases are better off looking for something else or sell stuff you get by surprise, buying the other one from someone who found it.
But what if you would know that if you keep looking for very long you will surely get it eventually.
I'd love to see it work in a way, where the drop chance for each item would rise with every death that didn't result in a drop yet.

Like after every 2k Siromas, which none of dropped a Siroma Card, your chance to get it would be doubled.
Not getting one in 8-10k would be very unlikely, since the chance would already be 0,16%.
And with the worst possible luck you would get the card after 28k Siromas.

Would be hard to implement probably, unlike the upgrade one which is just 5 numbers to keep track off for each character (lv1,lv2,lv3,lv4,armor;10-20).

Edited by Charon, 30 June 2011 - 08:47 AM.

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#16 Kadelia

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:27 AM

Problem would be someone breaking 19 red flame whip and then using their free pass on a hurricane fury. etc?

Although I guess failing 19 flame whips in a row would be rather unlikely...
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#17 Charon

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:48 AM

Exactly. I think it would actually be pretty nice and far far from unfair to get a safe upgrade from failing 19 times in a row.

It would be close to impossible to fail 19 times anyways. Someone do the math please Dx
Well depends on what point the variable limit would be decided at.

I herd u liek upgarde rates, so I put upgrade rates in yo upgrade rates, so you can upgrade while you fail.

Imagine the rates being

NrOfFails-RateForSuccessfulUpgrade
11-5%
12-13%
13-20%
14-26%
15-31%
16-35%
17-38%
18-40%
19-41%
20-100%

It would be virtually impossible to fail 19 times, which would be the only case for a safe upgrade.
So you would just end up upgrading crappy equips successfully before reaching 19 fails if you tried to abuse it, to a point where it would have been much more likely to get a desired eq to +10 with one try.
It would be something like once in a server lifetime event for someone to fail 19 times in a row with that system. A nice reward for worst luck ever xD
Could even have the server announce it globally that someone managed to fail 19 times for fun. But that message would never be seen lol.

Edited by Charon, 30 June 2011 - 09:16 AM.

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#18 jax5

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:25 AM

I think a way to encourage upgrading is to boost upgrade effects on armor. Example: armor upgrades giving +% HP (and/or +% race reduction) and +% healing to self based on refine level.
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#19 Codface

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:39 AM

Can't see a item memo on upgrading to increase % working because game doesnt remember numbers well.

There isnt even a way to sort a turn in that just accepts however many you've killed.
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#20 TrueMaster

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:46 AM

so the new +9 becomes the new +15/+16/+... you would eventually hit that wall where you would have to pay out the ass again. I don't really see this as a solution to much as this would also change the game mechanics as a lot more resourceful people would have even more powerful equips.
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#21 jax5

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:47 AM

I think the greater problem is a difference in tolerance of prospective upgraders:

-those who are ok with a gambling method of progression
-those who prefer some means of constant (even if slow) progression

The current HD upgrading system is anything but constant progression (so unlike EXP system for progression). It's if the upgrader (or whoever directly bought the ores) pays for enough gambles, then a desired outcome would most likely and eventually occur.
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#22 DarkDan

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:14 AM

I think the greater problem is a difference in tolerance of prospective upgraders:

-those who are ok with a gambling method of progression
-those who prefer some means of constant (even if slow) progression

The current HD upgrading system is anything but constant progression (so unlike EXP system for progression). It's if the upgrader (or whoever directly bought the ores) pays for enough gambles, then a desired outcome would most likely and eventually occur.


The Hat Recycler is pretty much a constant progression method. You dump enough hats in the mailbox eventually you will get a +7. That method is safer but can still be pretty expensive. Getting two of my KVM weapons to +7 cost me almost 200mil zeny. Zeny is fake money but its also harder to get than real cash lol.

The gambling method as of right now pretty much is a strait up pay to play method. You know if you have a +7 and get 300 HD ores you will likely get it to +9. You could get lucky and get it to +9 in 2 HD's but its unlikely. Gravity still makes money because your forced to buy a lot of HD's before you even start because of the chance the item downgrades below +7.

I don't ever see Gravity going with a constant progression method. They may do a safe upgrade to +7 but they want the cash people pay to upgrade items to +9 or +10.

I personally like that they every now and then give us a chance to +7 a item without the risk of it breaking. The Hat Recycler was a success. It stimulates the game economy. People who want to upgrade get the chance. People that need zeny can sell their hats. People that don't have real money can use zeny to upgrade a item to +7. People who complain so much about people paying real cash to get a advantage can't complain because the Hat Recycler doesn't require real cash. Its something anybody can do regardless of how much real money they have. A++++ job on that GM's.

I also like the gambling method set up for +7 and higher equips. Spending $25 - $30 to get a item to +9 is reasonable. Even young people with no jobs can save up and do that. If you want to +10 something just get $40 - $50 worth and give it a shot. If it doesn't happen oh well. Just make sure you keep the item above +7 and try again later when you get some more cash. Gravity has to have a way to make some money since they don't charge a monthly fee to play.

Edited by DarkDan, 30 June 2011 - 11:48 AM.

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#23 Ciler

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:27 AM

I miss the days when upgrading was about how lucky you were not about how rich you were...
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#24 HRdevil

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:33 AM

Upgrading to +10 is simply ridiculous.
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#25 jax5

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:34 AM

I disagree with hat recycler being constant progression, except for safe +5 upgrade. It's a sort of hybrid.

To compare upgrading progression with character level progression:

HD system: Kill a monster. There is a chance to gain exp. There is also a chance to lose exp. Regression is possible.
Hat Recylcer: Kill a monster. There is a chance to gain exp. There is also a chance for no change. Regression is not possible.

Edited by jax5, 30 June 2011 - 10:35 AM.

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