47 replies to this topic

[cybernetic]

when I said melee ranged, I meant melee distance "range". you're still making yourself look bad.

[BlackPotato]

uhuh. riight. im not the one flip-flopping in the thread i created about increasing the effectiveness of my classes skill. go back to WoW or something

[cybernetic]

I didnt flip flop anything. anyone else looking at this thread knew exactly what both statements meant

[Scuba]

Should just make ME block DB. Really doesn't make sense.

[FiskBlack]

Make ME useful again maybe? Block ES and DB, also fix that bull-_- of Crazy vines ganbantein, genetics are so gay. lmfao

[cybernetic]

Make ME useful again maybe? Block ES and DB, also fix that bull-_- of Crazy vines ganbantein, genetics are so gay. lmfao

Unfortunately they can't just code (maybe they can, this is just an assumption) dragon breath to beable to be blocked by ME. Because of the source of the damage of DB (not magic damage) they would have to change how dragonbreath works. And ME IS STILL useful, it blocks all of the nasty ground targeted disable spells (vacuum, manhole etc). Now, maybe they can hardcode DB so it can be blocked by ME, maybe they can't. Regardless. Buffing neutral barrier is an easy(er) alternative that does not change how any (damaging) skill works, and if you think about it, it complements renewal with a new source of defence, which could evolve how WoE is played out. While crazy vines and ganbantein exist neutral barrier will always have an easily casted counter, (ganbantein having no cooldown but a small aoe, crazy vines having a 5 second cooldown but having a huge aoe). Which is a reason for needing a shorter cooldown, at most a 5~10 second cooldown. If crazy vines did not exist, then I would agree that at least a minute cooldown should stay on neutral barrier, but unfortunately it does, and it is an easily casted (albeit expensive to ues), huge aoe ganbantein with only a 5 second cooldown.

[cybernetic]

bump ^.^

[Inubashiri]

Please don't purposely bump non-buy/sell topics.

[BlackPotato]

Please don't purposely bump non-buy/sell topics.

your asking a child to stop being a child. hes really workin the hardest to get some1 looking at that. basically every thread:

"wow, green ales arent that expensive on valk. know what should happen tho? decrease the cooldown of nb and increase its aoe blah blah...."

[cybernetic]

your asking a child to stop being a child. hes really workin the hardest to get some1 looking at that. basically every thread:

"wow, green ales arent that expensive on valk. know what should happen tho? decrease the cooldown of nb and increase its aoe blah blah...."

I honestly think you should look in a mirror regarding being a child, this is definately a discussion that needs to be brought to attention. You're just blatantly disgregarding any information which has a valid argument with a sweeping statement of your own delusional biased thoughts. You repeatedly state information that is incorrect which is giving the onlookers to this thread the wrong idea.

The facts:

Neutral barrier protects against ALL ranged damage (physical and magical). It does NOT protect against melee distanced damage (for example regarding mvps, if you are standing 1~3 cells distance from an mvp when it casts earthquake you WILL be damaged even if you are standing in neutral barrier, as it is considered a melee attack, stand one cell further away and you will not.)

Currently if you want to counter dragon breath (with pneuma, which mind you is terrible if you actually want to push at a choke trying to position them all correctly), you can't counter ground targeted disable spells.
If you do counter dragon breath (with pneuma) you will be destroyed by the ground targeted disable spells.
There is no feasible counter to jack frost/frost misty currently (except a 3x3 aoe neutral barrier, which obviously is useless).
Now, obviously jRO knew something was wrong otherwise they wouldn't have changed ME to allow it to block dragon breath. And kRO obviously sees the use for neutral barrier because they ARE buffing it come the april 13 skill changes. But because of an oversight with crazy vines it is not being buffed enough. Crazy vines is far too spammable to make neutral barrier have any effective use. I can live with the 5x5 aoe (but it should be increased), sure. But after one crazy vines (that can be casted every five seconds) you can't use neutral barrier for another 2 minutes, making it useless.

If you think everything is fine, you're quite delusional. Buffing neutral barrier would give functional (trying to push a guild of 52 with pnuema is not functional) counters to skills which before didn't, allow whole guilds to function as a group rather then individually and with the previous point allow more intuitive team play, relying again on scholars, and now including mechanics as the base foundation of gvg.

Edited by cybernetic, 11 July 2011 - 07:24 PM.

[Viri]

Jro is the whiniest server around though, they make ridiculous changes based on crying even more than iRO does. I hope we DO NOT follow in their footsteps to be honest.

[Inubashiri]

I don't mind the discussion about such things but what I do expect is this to be the last mention of this particular issue in a thread, its appeared far too often in several other threads almost on a weekly basis and all its doing each time is inviting more flaming from other users which then in turn makes the mods and CMs have to clean up the mess or worse. I will leave the discussion open but I expect it to stay on track and no mudslinging to occur please.

[cybernetic]

I keep seeing thefted vote all my posts down, care to provide your input?

Now, excluding pvm, what are the negative aspects you all see that would be apparant from buffing neutral barrier? You're all quick to say no, so what are your reasons for this?

Grouping up too tight is always bad in renewal now. You gotta stick together but if you stand in 7x7 you're just gonna get curse circled or thorn walled or something

As far as I know thorn wall wouldn't work on magnetic earth (which should be used in conjuntion with neutral barrier, if it was actually buffed).

RE: Being cursed circled from sticking together, well isn't that just a plausible counter to this setup (outside of ganbantein + crazy vines)? There would still be considerable risks, but aslong as there are enough stormblasters (or people up the back, outside of cc range) to ensure the sura's can die fast enough, then there isn't really that much of a problem.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current neutral barrier:
3x3 aoe
2 minute cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2.5 second cast time (all variable)

April 13 neutral barrier:
5x5 aoe
1 minute cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2.5 second cast time (all variable)

Proposed changes to neutral barrier:
7x7 aoe
0~10 second cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2 second cast time (all fixed, no variable)

Edited by cybernetic, 11 July 2011 - 08:51 PM.

[Viri]

It's worth a try maybe but am I the only one that found old ME push battles to be boring and repetitive? I like the random flow/chaos of fights now.

[LordVader]

The facts:

Neutral barrier protects against ALL ranged damage (physical and magical). It does NOT protect against melee distanced damage (for example regarding mvps, if you are standing 1~3 cells distance from an mvp when it casts earthquake you WILL be damaged even if you are standing in neutral barrier, as it is considered a melee attack, stand one cell further away and you will not.)

Honestly, this skill protects against too much. I understand melee damage is not blocked but it is a 100%(?) block of all ranged and magic damage? So basically walking GTB/Pneuma and ontop of ME no less. Bring in AB's spamming Praefation in a rotation and noone get's killed. I can't say how this would function in a realistic battle but sounds OP but the complexity of having everyone move in unison under such a small AoE is borderline impossible to pull off successfully amongst the fast moving OHKO classes that we have now.

Currently if you want to counter dragon breath (with pneuma, which mind you is terrible if you actually want to push at a choke trying to position them all correctly), you can't counter ground targeted disable spells.
If you do counter dragon breath (with pneuma) you will be destroyed by the ground targeted disable spells.
There is no feasible counter to jack frost/frost misty currently (except a 3x3 aoe neutral barrier, which obviously is useless).

Get to base level 130+ and buy a fire armor to armor switch in woe when DB is a threat. DB really isn't that strong when the fire armor goes on. Not strong enough to warrant buffing NB on it's own merit. JF/FM can be troublesome to deal with but Freezing status is negated by speed potion. Speed pot over to the warlock and pop him like a pimple. There are plenty of ways to stop a warlocks cast, even if sacced. Shouldn't be that hard to deal with.

Now, obviously jRO knew something was wrong otherwise they wouldn't have changed ME to allow it to block dragon breath. And kRO obviously sees the use for neutral barrier because they ARE buffing it come the april 13 skill changes. But because of an oversight with crazy vines it is not being buffed enough. Crazy vines is far too spammable to make neutral barrier have any effective use. I can live with the 5x5 aoe (but it should be increased), sure. But after one crazy vines (that can be casted every five seconds) you can't use neutral barrier for another 2 minutes, making it useless.

Yea, I think this is a bad argument. Crazy vines has a hella expensive catalyst to use. Somewhere to the tune of 100k+ per cast whereas neutral barrier only cosumes 1 magic gear fuel. You could feasibly cripple a guilds woe budget just by making them have to cancel your NB over and over again. It's like you use 1 red pot to make them use 1 ygg berry. Crazy vines is just fine the way it is. Considering iRO is the slow kid on the block when it comes to actually changing Beholder spawns like other official RO's to compensate for the terrible spawn. This is the main reason I quit my genetic, it was either buy bulk thorny seed supplies or use the z to buy a god equip.

If you think everything is fine, you're quite delusional. Buffing neutral barrier would give functional (trying to push a guild of 52 with pnuema is not functional) counters to skills which before didn't, allow whole guilds to function as a group rather then individually and with the previous point allow more intuitive team play, relying again on scholars, and now including mechanics as the base foundation of gvg.

This reminds me of the old ways wars were fought, everyone lined their troops into large square formations and marched over to the other and died in blocks. But battle tactics progressed. The battle formations have changed, tactics are still used, but are much more free flowing. Not the conventional block shaped battles of pre-renewal.

Current neutral barrier:
3x3 aoe
2 minute cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2.5 second cast time (all variable)
This NB was bad.

April 13 neutral barrier:
5x5 aoe
1 minute cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2.5 second cast time (all variable)
This NB is better but AOE is too small, I agree with the 7x7.

Proposed changes to neutral barrier:
7x7 aoe
0~10 second cooldown
Lasts for 1 minute
2 second cast time (all fixed, no variable)
This NB is OP. Cooldown is much too low. Countering someone should not just be a matter of them turning the skill back on before any difference can be noticed. It's just like two people standing at one light switch flicking it off and on all night instantly behind each other. A counter is supposed to put you at a disadvantage, not become an unnoticeable spam off. 35~45 sec cooldown seems more in line with how the skill should be used.

For some reason this makes me want some Porridge.

Replies inserted above in bold.

[cybernetic]

Well, with your argument about cost differences. I suppose - but for "high tier" guilds, cost isn't a problem. They will pay whatever it takes to be-able to use crazy vines.

And honestly I think rather then focusing on the cooldown being too short, that the cast time can be adjusted (while keeping a small cooldown), fair trade-off?. That's why I suggested to change it to a fully fixed 2 second cast time instead of 2.5 seconds all variable.

If it takes longer to cast, its either more time to be interrupted (via long range attacks from a ranger, warlock.. etc) or spell broken. Meaning if they don't act smart (sacrifice, casting from the back moving to the front, etc) then they won't be-able to activate neutral barrier.

Edited by cybernetic, 11 July 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[BlackPotato]

I don't mind the discussion about such things but what I do expect is this to be the last mention of this particular issue in a thread, its appeared far too often in several other threads almost on a weekly basis and all its doing each time is inviting more flaming from other users which then in turn makes the mods and CMs have to clean up the mess or worse. I will leave the discussion open but I expect it to stay on track and no mudslinging to occur please.

Op is obviously the only one who cares, you could close the thread but it would just force this tirade into other threads, as previously posted.

[Inubashiri]

Op is obviously the only one who cares, you could close the thread but it would just force this tirade into other threads, as previously posted.

Thats why its staying here, I would rather it be discussed in one place rather than X other topics that have nothing to do with it.

[asayuu]

My version of Neutral Barrier would be something near to Hermode's Rod (That crappy Gypsy skill that needs a fix):

7x7 Area~
60 seconds duration;
80 seconds cooldown; (More than 1 minute, less than 2. Just to don't make it permanent like OP wants.)
Only protect against ranged melee strikes.
Affected targets can't use skills in the zone. [This because Hermode also have this]

So Hermode would be the immunity to magic and Neutral Barrier the immunity to ranged-melee.

Second [insane] version:

5x5 Area~

60 seconds duration;
90 seconds cooldown;
Protect against anything (Close-range, long-range, magic) from the neutral element (Got it? Neutral Barrier)
No effect against elemental attacks.

Edited by asayuu, 12 July 2011 - 07:03 AM.

[cybernetic]

Op is obviously the only one who cares, you could close the thread but it would just force this tirade into other threads, as previously posted.

Unfortunately you're just bitter and not open to any form of discussion, maybe if you stop replying to this thread things would get better!

Asayuu, i'm sorry but you need to stop looking at hermode's rode. It was a trans skill that was made for pre-renewal, it won't be updated for renewal. You can't put that against neutral barrier and say that neutral barrier is op compared to it, when they're made in completely different times under different circumstances.

Times have changes.

[asayuu]

Why are you SO sure of that? Some trans skills were/are being reviewed on KRO.

Clashing Spiral is already nerfed. Asura / Acid Bomb are losing damage too. The problem is the lack of a tester. If our troubles won't go to KRO, it will never have feedback here.

I will agree with you, only if you agree with me. I said to make the barrier the physical counterpart of Hermode, and why are you complaining? I don't get it. I did not said about "you just can use Neutral Barrier near to a portal"

Urgent Edit, for all Dragon Breathers: Yes, the main problem of Dragon Breath is being a melee skill instead of magic. I don't know which melee AOE skills are blocked by Magnetic Earth [Noob sage does not have blue gems to test]

Edited by asayuu, 12 July 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[BlackPotato]

Unfortunately you're just bitter and not open to any form of discussion, maybe if you stop replying to this thread things would get better!

Asayuu, i'm sorry but you need to stop looking at hermode's rode. It was a trans skill that was made for pre-renewal, it won't be updated for renewal. You can't put that against neutral barrier and say that neutral barrier is op compared to it, when they're made in completely different times under different circumstances.

Times have changes.

if the cm's delete this thread and stop your useless tirade for a skill that wont be changed, wont be used, and isnt gonna be any different, then no im not being bitter, just a realist.

[cybernetic]

Why are you SO sure of that? Some trans skills were/are being reviewed on KRO.

Clashing Spiral is already nerfed. Asura / Acid Bomb are losing damage too. The problem is the lack of a tester. If our troubles won't go to KRO, it will never have feedback here.

I will agree with you, only if you agree with me. I said to make the barrier the physical counterpart of Hermode, and why are you complaining? I don't get it. I did not said about "you just can use Neutral Barrier near to a portal"

Mechanics already have a skill that acts like that anyway (..sort of). Stealth field makes it so the people inside the aoe (currently a 3x3 aoe aswell) can't be affected by single target skills (asura, tetra, clashing, etc). But the caster CAN still be targeted by single target skills.