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#1 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:16 AM

What's your opinion on grinding? (Please keep the post civil)

Taken from Cracked;

"Grinding," if you've never heard the term, is the "work" part of a game. You reach some boss you're clearly not strong enough to beat, or you don't have the right weapons. Then you figure out that to get strong enough or to earn the weapons, you need to go repeat earlier levels (or in an RPG, wander around and kill a bunch of random animals).

For somebody like me who got into RPGs with the '90s era Final Fantasy console games, you knew what you were in for: 1) doing a lot of reading, 2) adding a midi soundtrack to your nightmares and 3) grinding your ass off to out-level a bull-_- random monster that was harder than the mother-_-ing end-boss.

No one "enjoyed" it, I don't think. On some level, we knew we were putting the storyline on hold in favor of making our characters powerful enough to see the next cut scene ("What's that? We need this amulet to destroy the dragon that is about to wipe out the kingdom? OK, wait while I kill 300 armadillos."). But it was what the game told us to do, so we did it. You didn't question that :).
When my kids encounter a boss that requires grinding, they think the game is broken, or that they're just missing something. I've seen them spend up to two hours trying to kill a Deathclaw in Fallout: New Vegas because they don't consider the idea that they should come back when they're more powerful. It's there, so we should be able to kill it. What's the problem?

Why Do They Do It?

It's all they know. Once more, most games have come around to their way of doing it. Boss encounters in most games are designed to be beaten after about three tries. In some games, the enemies' level is adjusted to the players' level. In newer Nintendo games and in L.A. Noire, they give you the option to just skip a level if you fail too many times.
What Does it Mean?

I'm starting to think it means that the very idea of grinding was a bull-_- trick to begin with in order to pad a game. When I was a kid, games were set up to make you grind the same tasks over and over because it would stretch out the play time. With the right amount of grinding spots at just the right intervals, a developer could easily -- and often did -- turn a 20-hour game into a 40-hour game. And that was a huge selling point to say, "Final Fantasy III has 40 hours of gameplay!"

Now, it's normal to expect the quest to be five to 10 hours long depending on the genre. If you want a long game, get a multiplayer game and go online. Congratulations, you have a game that never ends. Or, you get a sandbox game and spend the next six months in GTA trying to jump out of a helicopter and land in a swimming pool.
But it comes down to the fact that my kids can do what I never could at their age -- they recognize when a game is full of :). They can do that because they have a lot of other titles to compare it to. And if what they're currently playing is trying to bull-_- them, they simply put down the controller and go play outside ... and that means when Kill, Loot, Repeat 2 hits the shelves, they're going to say, ";) that" and buy $60 worth of ice cream instead.


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#2 Ralis

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:22 AM

I don't mind it. Gives a good feeling of accomplishment when you beat some hardass boss.

You want serious grinding? Play Dragon Warrior 7. That game had some SUPER-HARD BOSSES. Gracos, for instance. Only way for me to beat him was to grind for like five more levels. @@ Not to mention the job system in that game, but ohgod...

Shouldn't be able to fly through a game, IMO. As long as the battles are interesting, I'm all for the grind.
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#3 ikeren

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:22 AM

If you don't like grinding don't play RO.
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#4 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:24 AM

I love grinding.
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#5 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:34 AM

If you don't like grinding don't play RO.


If everyone who didn't like grinding didn't play RO, the game would die.
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#6 ikeren

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:40 AM

If everyone who didn't like grinding didn't play RO, the game would die.

I would love to see how many people who've played RO for more than a year rage about how much they hate grinding and refuse to play games that revolve around it.
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#7 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:42 AM

I would love to see how many people who've played RO for more than a year rage about how much they hate grinding and refuse to play games that revolve around it.


I've been playing the game on and off since beta, so there's one. It's not necessarily that people refuse to play it, it's that it doesn't hold the interest of the gamer as long as other games do. This means frequent breaks in subscriptions.
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#8 Renaldoo

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:44 AM

I think what he means today is that kids today aren't willing to work for something.

What was the last (console) game you guys played that was actually challenging? I sure can't think of any on the modern consoles...
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#9 jax5

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:46 AM

I think some amount of grinding (or other actions that are tolerable but not directly fun) is needed, simply to make achievement of objectives more comparatively meaningful.

It's like the "grind" of saving for a car/house. Or, perhaps like the "grind" of continual compromise/conflict resolution with a significant other and being able to recognize both a relationship that's healthy/maintained and how far they've gone together. To be able to skip directly to "happily ever after"... I don't know if I'd want that.

Edited by jax5, 15 July 2011 - 09:47 AM.

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#10 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:48 AM

While I do agree that some grinding is necessary, the overall issue with it is that (as Cracked said) it's used to fluff up a game with a lack of content. Most (moderately) successful MMO's don't rely so much on the journey, as the challenges at the end of the road. End-game content is what most games revolve around nowadays.
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#11 Brindizer

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:49 AM

Spoiler


Kids these days.

Edited by Brindizer, 15 July 2011 - 09:50 AM.

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#12 Ralis

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:51 AM

I think what he means today is that kids today aren't willing to work for something.

What was the last (console) game you guys played that was actually challenging? I sure can't think of any on the modern consoles...


Final Fantasy XII.

You had access to all these high-level monsters and dungeons every so often, but the things inside would KILL you. There were also like 15 hidden Espers / Bosses that you could find early on that would beat the snot out of you unless you were way overleveled.
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#13 ikeren

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:59 AM

I've been playing the game on and off since beta, so there's one. It's not necessarily that people refuse to play it, it's that it doesn't hold the interest of the gamer as long as other games do. This means frequent breaks in subscriptions.

There's a niche for people who like these dated korean-MMO's. (grinding) I'm pretty sure most people would never change the time spent grinding 40 hours straight for an easy mode.
Different strokes.
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#14 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:02 AM

There's a niche for people who like these dated korean-MMO's. (grinding) I'm pretty sure most people would never change the time spent grinding 40 hours straight for an easy mode.
Different strokes.


I wasn't aware that grinding meant a direct difficulty increase. There's other ways to amp up difficulty without having to spend hundreds of hours to achieve one goal.
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#15 Renaldoo

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:03 AM

Final Fantasy XII.

You had access to all these high-level monsters and dungeons every so often, but the things inside would KILL you. There were also like 15 hidden Espers / Bosses that you could find early on that would beat the snot out of you unless you were way overleveled.


Haha, I remember I started that game and walked outside and I'm like "Oh :)! A T-rex!" he wasn't aggressive so I walked up to it, and tried to mug it. Then he chomped on me and I died and never saved it..

But I mean this-generation of games. On the 360 or PS-Triple or Wii. The only moderately challenging ones I can think of are Lost Planet and SH: Homecoming (both on Hard setting) and those are from Japan. Western games tend to be kinda' wimpy when it comes to bosses/challenging gameplay.
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#16 Kadelia

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:04 AM

The comment about turning a 20 hr game into a 40 hr one and the box saying 40 hr playtime is not correct. I often found myself following the story, grinding about 2 hours, repeat about 20 times (40 extra hrs wasted lol @ me) then my running time was ~80 hrs at the end, and when I checked the box it started 40 hours of playtime.

Basically I think this is false, the gametime listed is generally the direct playthrough, without grinding.


I am positive RO is padded this way on purpose, to set certain lengths of time to accomplish goals.
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#17 Renaldoo

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:10 AM

I wasn't aware that grinding meant a direct difficulty increase. There's other ways to amp up difficulty without having to spend hundreds of hours to achieve one goal.


It's not prevalent in all RPG's, but for many of them there is a depth to the grind-- that leveling up and "prepping" Your characters is more personalized, that you get to prepare them in a certain way such as to execute certain strategy, instead of just brute-force and leveling up more and more to have more bruteness to your force. RO works pretty well towards this goal, and I think if Ragnarok didn't have the customization of character builds that it does, it would have never lasted as long as it did. I just wish we could go back in time a little bit and take out stat/skill resets, so the grind was meaningful. If I want to make a pure support/BattleChant Paladin, it'd be a pretty rough grind, but it would be all the more meaningful for it. Now, I can just pump STR/INT and holy cross my way to 99 in about a day, reset to the desired stats. I think it would help the party-problem we currently experience if people still had to rely on parties for their build.
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#18 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:18 AM

It's not prevalent in all RPG's, but for many of them there is a depth to the grind-- that leveling up and "prepping" Your characters is more personalized, that you get to prepare them in a certain way such as to execute certain strategy, instead of just brute-force and leveling up more and more to have more bruteness to your force. RO works pretty well towards this goal, and I think if Ragnarok didn't have the customization of character builds that it does, it would have never lasted as long as it did. I just wish we could go back in time a little bit and take out stat/skill resets, so the grind was meaningful. If I want to make a pure support/BattleChant Paladin, it'd be a pretty rough grind, but it would be all the more meaningful for it. Now, I can just pump STR/INT and holy cross my way to 99 in about a day, reset to the desired stats. I think it would help the party-problem we currently experience if people still had to rely on parties for their build.


There's a few different methods that I've noticed from experience that make games successful(talking MMOs, not consoles).

Based on the quality;

Medium grind -> Medium endgame
Low grind -> High endgame

But Ragnarok in it's current form is...

High grind -> What endgame?

Sure, you're working towards a goal, but after you make it to that goal, what's there to do? Sure you can grind some more to get better gear, or WoE/MvP, but realistically, that's all still a grind.

Edit: for the record, I'm having a blast in this discussion, I'm finding the input extremely interesting.

Edited by conras, 15 July 2011 - 10:20 AM.

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#19 Renaldoo

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:26 AM

Medium grind -> Medium endgame
Low grind -> High endgame

But Ragnarok in it's current form is...

High grind -> What endgame?


Mm, I would think a high grind should accompany a high endgame. I think in those MMO's with a high endgame/metagame, they did have a high grind in the past, and it's a process of evolution that, as those things change, the grind changes too-- Specifically, I think the grind is still there, it's just not where you think it is. It's gotten a little easier to make it TO the endgame, but once you're there, there's a bit of a grind of acclimating yourself to the endgame and all its subtleties and complexity.

I wouldn't say ragnarok's too high of a grind right now.. but it's definitely lacking in endgame.
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#20 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:27 AM

There's a few different methods that I've noticed from experience that make games successful(talking MMOs, not consoles).

Based on the quality;

Medium grind -> Medium endgame
Low grind -> High endgame

But Ragnarok in it's current form is...

High grind -> What endgame?

Sure, you're working towards a goal, but after you make it to that goal, what's there to do? Sure you can grind some more to get better gear, or WoE/MvP, but realistically, that's all still a grind.

Edit: for the record, I'm having a blast in this discussion, I'm finding the input extremely interesting.



Endgames in MMOs are mostly just grinding/farming for better gears so players can break their record on how fast the last uber boss was killed.
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#21 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:28 AM

Mm, I would think a high grind should accompany a high endgame. I think in those MMO's with a high endgame/metagame, they did have a high grind in the past, and it's a process of evolution that, as those things change, the grind changes too-- Specifically, I think the grind is still there, it's just not where you think it is. It's gotten a little easier to make it TO the endgame, but once you're there, there's a bit of a grind of acclimating yourself to the endgame and all its subtleties and complexity.

I wouldn't say ragnarok's too high of a grind right now.. but it's definitely lacking in endgame.


Oh no, definitely not. If Ragnarok had a high quality endgame, the grind would be even less painful as you know there's something down the road that makes everything worthwhile.
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#22 Tribe

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:25 AM

RO would suck if everything was just given to you at the start...
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#23 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:44 AM

RO would suck if everything was just given to you at the start...


Nobody ever said they wanted everything given to them at the start.
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#24 bitbucket

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:57 AM

Nobody ever said they wanted everything given to them at the start.


Most people do. The work ethic of our parents' generation is dead.

But those people play on pirate servers.
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#25 Nombus

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:45 PM

In properly designed MMO, the is not such a large gap between those who grinded and those who did not; and thus there is room for the causual player and the game junky. RO is very different as input into the game through gears and levels take a extreme amount of time (i.e. 5,000 kills for a card, 10,000 for a level) and the difference in gear is so dramatic, one is at a huge disadvantage to the person who grinds.

Most people I know have a love&hate relationship with RO. They love the mechanics and feel of the game, yet they hate the amount of time it takes to accomplish anything, or to be on a reasonable ground to compete with others. Double Xp events are loved and battlemanuals are bought in copious quantities for a reason. People want to reduce the amount of time they have to play this game in those ways.

Edited by Nombus, 15 July 2011 - 12:49 PM.

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