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#26 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:53 PM

In properly designed MMO, the is not such a large gap between those who grinded and those who did not; and thus there is room for the causual player and the game junky.



I disagree with this statement.

People who spend more time playing should be rewarded more than people who just play casually. That is what a proper MMO is.
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#27 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:14 PM

I disagree with this statement.

People who spend more time playing should be rewarded more than people who just play casually. That is what a proper MMO is.


A proper MMO caters to both casual and hardcore player, having content for either playstyle.
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#28 Tkwan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:23 PM

I think what he means today is that kids today aren't willing to work for something.

What was the last (console) game you guys played that was actually challenging? I sure can't think of any on the modern consoles...



That is because nowadays we can actually save the games. That was the difficult part about most of the old ones.

On topic. The grind is beyond ridiculous. They need to really take a page out of top MMO's books. They didn't get to be top MMO's just by doing what they wanted; they did what they knew that their community, their subscribers, wanted. Grinding is nowhere in any of the top games repertoire's. The ability to grind is always there, but is by no means the most rewarding, or most entertaining way of getting your character that coveted next level. They use a quest system, the quest system is always changing and bringing in new things because people get bored of the old, really, really fast. Grinding NEVER changes. You can change locations, slightly alter tactics, but its always the same thing. Skill Skill Kill Skill Skill Kill Skill Skill Kill. You get the idea. It's not particularly fun.

Whoever it was that said above that if all the people that hated grinding quit that RO would die. You are 100% correct. This is the western world, we aren't masochists (most of us).
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#29 Nombus

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:30 PM

I disagree with this statement.

People who spend more time playing should be rewarded more than people who just play casually. That is what a proper MMO is.


Feel free to disagree but it's commonly found that most people enjoy MMOs where by the end game you are doing difficult tasks to gain new equipment that gives that minor advantages. That is to say, they can generally peak at about a 25% higher damage cap and resistance than others. On the other hand, RO is full of people enjoying their Megs, MvP cards, and other gears that can easily modify their damage to more than double what they could do without it.

You know where those people go that finally get fed up with the end game discrepancy of stacked GTBs, Megs, Bishop shoes and whatnot in MvPing and WoE once they've finished their grind to 150? Somewhere else. There's very little endgame in RO to begin with and Gravity has made it remarkably imbalanced. Not only do most players have to compete with others that grind incessantly, we also have to compete with those that are willing to upgrade their Cash shop KvM weapons to +13. Causual players don't last long in RO.

Edited by Nombus, 15 July 2011 - 04:31 PM.

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#30 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:51 PM

A proper MMO caters to both casual and hardcore player, having content for either playstyle.


I think some people are stuck with some sort of console game mentality in which they think that when they spend certain amount of time in an MMO, they expect to reach the endgame contents like in a typical console game. The author of the article even said, "Now, it's normal to expect the quest to be five to 10 hours long depending on the genre. If you want a long game, get a multiplayer game and go online."

An MMO is a progressing game. The casual players will not hit the endgame ceiling as fast as the hardcore ones; when they do, there will be pretty much a new expansion on the way for the hardcore players to grind again.

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#31 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:29 PM

Feel free to disagree but it's commonly found that most people enjoy MMOs where by the end game you are doing difficult tasks to gain new equipment that gives that minor advantages. That is to say, they can generally peak at about a 25% higher damage cap and resistance than others. On the other hand, RO is full of people enjoying their Megs, MvP cards, and other gears that can easily modify their damage to more than double what they could do without it.

You know where those people go that finally get fed up with the end game discrepancy of stacked GTBs, Megs, Bishop shoes and whatnot in MvPing and WoE once they've finished their grind to 150? Somewhere else. There's very little endgame in RO to begin with and Gravity has made it remarkably imbalanced. Not only do most players have to compete with others that grind incessantly, we also have to compete with those that are willing to upgrade their Cash shop KvM weapons to +13. Causual players don't last long in RO.


I only disagree to the concept that players who spend less time being rewarded just as much as the players who spend more time to grind.

Just to make it clear, I am against the game's imbalance and I pretty much know it since I play a full support Archbishop and I level now just doing god seal quests and events. I also play for about 2-3 hours on weekdays and a bit more on weekends which can be considered casual.
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#32 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:32 PM

I think some people are stuck with some sort of console game mentality in which they think that when they spend certain amount of time in an MMO, they expect to reach the endgame contents like in a typical console game. The author of the article even said, "Now, it's normal to expect the quest to be five to 10 hours long depending on the genre. If you want a long game, get a multiplayer game and go online."

An MMO is a progressing game. The casual players will not hit the endgame ceiling as fast as the hardcore ones; when they do, there will be pretty much a new expansion on the way for the hardcore players to grind again.


I understand how MMO's work, but when the entire thing is a grind to endgame (since endgame doesn't exist in RO), how do you justify your statement?
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#33 Shunchan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:50 PM

I understand how MMO's work, but when the entire thing is a grind to endgame (since endgame doesn't exist in RO), how do you justify your statement?


I would like to know your definition of "endgame".
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#34 DarkDan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:36 PM

I agree with the people that say casual players don't last long. I have tried to recruit friends that never get past swordsman lol. That is with me trying to help them the best I can. If they can't stand the grind that early then just wait until they progress to a 3rd class character.

It also seems like the best parts of the game revolve around being good at pvp and woe. If you are going to invest the time to grind you want to get results. Problem is that the game rewards people who have god items and over upgraded kvm weapons so much that without dumping some real cash into the game it is hard to compete. I see a lot of discouraged players that are technically good at playing the game(and make up for their gear with skill) but just don't have the cash to throw down $100 to try to make a +10 kvm weapon.

The god items and mvp cards also cause frustration. Seems like the servers are run by big guilds that have a lot of these items at their disposal. If you start the game with a goal to make a Meg as a example, it almost seems impossible to do with the way the game is now. If you play the game for years you may make the social links necessary to get it done. People I hang with have been on the game a long while and have access to some of these items. Even possess a few. If they play as much as they do and still don't have a Meg than its kind of disheartening to even try. Why waste the time grinding.

That being said I play the game and enjoy it the way it is. I don't mind the grind. I have a 150 RG and I am now starting on making a 150 Sura. I do use x3 bms and love x2 exp events. Who can blame me lol.

Edited by DarkDan, 15 July 2011 - 08:39 PM.

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#35 Tkwan

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 08:57 PM

Wow. So instead of starting a new thread, I'll just post in here since its the same topic. I just got my first char to level 100 after going trans. That, imo, is a heck of a grind. The kind of grind worth of the final levels of a game. So I looked at the experience tables after 100 for the first time. Really? Like, REALLY?! 30m+ a level when the monsters only give 6-11k job (8-16k with vip). REALLY?! Don't you think since many of the mobs have over 100k life that MAYBE their experience should be increased? That isn't even fun. That's just a very sick and twisted joke. Who the hell actually WANTS to grind that much? And what about the death penalty? With VIP if you happen to die at 149, you would lose almost 1m xp per death. At job 49 you would lose 1.2m per death. That's about another hours worth of GRINDING. WHAT THE FACK! You want to know my determination to go out and explore new areas and just mess around in general? Zero. Zip. Zilch. Why would I want to risk messing around and having FUN when a few minutes of joy is going to cost me an hour or more of WORK.

I don't expect my ranting to go noticed, or that any of it will be taken into consideration. If not for the friends I have playing, I swear to God I would have quit as soon as I saw that RIDICULOUS amount of experience.
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#36 conras

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:10 PM

Wow. So instead of starting a new thread, I'll just post in here since its the same topic. I just got my first char to level 100 after going trans. That, imo, is a heck of a grind. The kind of grind worth of the final levels of a game. So I looked at the experience tables after 100 for the first time. Really? Like, REALLY?! 30m+ a level when the monsters only give 6-11k job (8-16k with vip). REALLY?! Don't you think since many of the mobs have over 100k life that MAYBE their experience should be increased? That isn't even fun. That's just a very sick and twisted joke. Who the hell actually WANTS to grind that much? And what about the death penalty? With VIP if you happen to die at 149, you would lose almost 1m xp per death. At job 49 you would lose 1.2m per death. That's about another hours worth of GRINDING. WHAT THE FACK! You want to know my determination to go out and explore new areas and just mess around in general? Zero. Zip. Zilch. Why would I want to risk messing around and having FUN when a few minutes of joy is going to cost me an hour or more of WORK.

I don't expect my ranting to go noticed, or that any of it will be taken into consideration. If not for the friends I have playing, I swear to God I would have quit as soon as I saw that RIDICULOUS amount of experience.


Please keep your posts civil.
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#37 Pingchan222

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM

I don't like grinding either. S'why the only MMO involving grind I play is RO, I just kinda put up with it for RO, I'm used to it and to me it got a lot better since renewal and some previous updates. Games without grind like LoL have me spoiled now, heh.

It's not that I mind working for anything, I'd just rather save "work" type effort for something that's actually real and matters. Saying people who don't like grind have no work ethic is just silly..it's a game. I know people who absolutely hate grinding but still work hard IRL in school towards their future careers and the like.
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#38 Anko

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:45 AM

If you are smart with levelling, all the events, exp hats, bms etc, 145 is not that big a deal. They even divided up the 100-150 levels more evenly now so there is not a ball breaking final few levels.

Casual players don't need 150 anyway.
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#39 FoxyWoxy

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:20 AM

In my opinion? Story is the main focus of any RPG, that said I don't believe majority developers target audience who want a high hand-eye cordination demand. Sadly this does limit what you can do in the game. Easy way to rid the "grind" but keep the "characters getting stronger" might be things like mini game oh but wait, that might require too much reflexes. It's all about target audience. Although I do think that developers also use this as an excuse, if there is something more evil than grinding it's random encounters. To close this arguement some games I played do balance their "grinding" in a very niceand interesting way it's just some developers keep even simple RPG gameplay in the dark.

Question what's this "endgame" thing people always talk about? I see it everytime MMOs are brought up. It feels like the "hardcore" player term which to my understanding is a 10 year old playing Call of Duty with aim bot assist.
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#40 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:48 PM

If you are smart with levelling, all the events, exp hats, bms etc, 145 is not that big a deal. They even divided up the 100-150 levels more evenly now so there is not a ball breaking final few levels.

Casual players don't need 150 anyway.



That's a great business motto!



Again I'll reference to top tier games, they make everything accessible to everyone in some fashion (WoW reference - You can go to top end dungeons even if you're inexperienced, you may not be able to take a heroic mode raid, but you will experience it and get good gear. I continually reference WoW because Blizzard has without a doubt set the standard for what to expect with your MMO's). You can argue that this is accessible to everyone currently, but for the casual player who has work/school/family to tend to, it is most certainly not. I personally work full time, and like to do other things outside of RO. I don't want to spend all my free time "working" on a game to get generally nowhere. A game should be a place to relax and have fun (this includes leveling because it is enjoyable.

On another note, if 150'ing were made more accessible then you would most likely see a woe/pvp attendance increase as well. That is what most "casual's" miss out on.
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#41 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:54 PM

In my opinion? Story is the main focus of any RPG, that said I don't believe majority developers target audience who want a high hand-eye cordination demand. Sadly this does limit what you can do in the game. Easy way to rid the "grind" but keep the "characters getting stronger" might be things like mini game oh but wait, that might require too much reflexes. It's all about target audience. Although I do think that developers also use this as an excuse, if there is something more evil than grinding it's random encounters. To close this arguement some games I played do balance their "grinding" in a very niceand interesting way it's just some developers keep even simple RPG gameplay in the dark.

Question what's this "endgame" thing people always talk about? I see it everytime MMOs are brought up. It feels like the "hardcore" player term which to my understanding is a 10 year old playing Call of Duty with aim bot assist.



The end game would be something challenging to strive for that offers great gear. Endless tower is an example. We need more things like that. That offers a significant challenge to high levels.

I'll go off on a tangent here. This game really needs something like endless tower easy mode. A separate tower thats a medium mode, and a hard mode tower that offers gears better than the God items. This would offer some end game on the pvm side. PvP just needs to be fixed up, especially the battlegrounds. The BG's should be a big thing, but they need alot of work on it to make players actually want to use it (a larger medal reward wouldn't hurt). This is just a start. They can continue expanding with new places and maps like scaraba, but most of their end game should really focus on the tower/dungeon aspect.
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#42 Anko

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:57 PM

That's a great business motto!



Again I'll reference to top tier games, they make everything accessible to everyone in some fashion (WoW reference - You can go to top end dungeons even if you're inexperienced, you may not be able to take a heroic mode raid, but you will experience it and get good gear. I continually reference WoW because Blizzard has without a doubt set the standard for what to expect with your MMO's). You can argue that this is accessible to everyone currently, but for the casual player who has work/school/family to tend to, it is most certainly not. I personally work full time, and like to do other things outside of RO. I don't want to spend all my free time "working" on a game to get generally nowhere. A game should be a place to relax and have fun (this includes leveling because it is enjoyable.

On another note, if 150'ing were made more accessible then you would most likely see a woe/pvp attendance increase as well. That is what most "casual's" miss out on.


I think you are creating a false dichotomy whereby you need max level before you can enjoy all the dungeons or woe/pvp/mvp.

What dungeon exactly do you need to be 150 to go to?

You don't need to be 150 to woe or pvp.

What kind of class and how are you levelling? Sounds like you should post in the specific class forum and get some tips on efficient levelling.
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#43 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:28 PM

I think you are creating a false dichotomy whereby you need max level before you can enjoy all the dungeons or woe/pvp/mvp.

What dungeon exactly do you need to be 150 to go to?

You don't need to be 150 to woe or pvp.

What kind of class and how are you levelling? Sounds like you should post in the specific class forum and get some tips on efficient levelling.



The point is that alot of people don't feel its really worth the effort to even bother with woe/pvping because they are going to get stomped by the people who are 150. Many of the 150's have max or close to max job levels which will always give them the edge versus other classes. I had said they need to make everything accessible by all players. The dungeon reference was an example. Pvp/woe is accessible, but completely pointless for anyone trying to take a castle without a high 3rd job base/jlvl as they'll get slammed by people owning God items. It isn't right that the best items in the game are limited to the few who own castles for long enough, or who save up for years just to buy out one item. That is why I suggested in the following post a PvM challenge that would beat the god item's. Then everyone has access to it, and woe becomes more balanced, as not only a few have the items to allow them to smash faces. This would balance out woe/pvp and give the pvm people a shot at enjoying this game all at the same time. That is accessibility.

Edit- I'll bite on your last comment; I'm an AB. I know a fix to this classes leveling would be making ME holy damage like someone in some other thread said. Unfortunately, thats still a 2nd class skill out doing a 3rd class skill, wherein lies another problem, but this is for a different discussion. I level mostly with close friends, and occasionally I'll head out on my own. All this is really neither here nor there. Like I said, I'm just biting.

Edited by Tkwan, 16 July 2011 - 01:31 PM.

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#44 Charisma

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:58 PM

The grind has never been that bad. Depressing at times 'cos I'm grinding by myself, but when I'm doing it with others, hours manage to magically disappear. But there's times I actually do want to grind. If I'm stressed out, I'll put on my music and grind and it relaxes me. Sometimes I see progress, sometimes I don't. Regardless, I wasted however much time of my life doing something that makes me happy.

Sometimes I just wanna get it over with when I don't have much time. Sometimes I don't play at all and just sit and chat.

But honestly, I don't mind the grind 'cos RO's not the only thing in my life :thumb:
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#45 FoxyWoxy

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:15 PM

The end game would be something challenging to strive for that offers great gear.

So instead of grinding for levels you're grinding for gear? I'm more confused than ever on the subject.
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#46 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:30 PM

So instead of grinding for levels you're grinding for gear? I'm more confused than ever on the subject.



Yeah I realized that after I hit Add Reply, I just didn't feel like changing it. End game in reality is just that. That Fin/Game Over/End Game screen. However we don't see these in MMO's because it would be completely redundant of the design. The closest definition to end game we can get in an mmo is something to keep us playing once the game "ends". Game's are considered to "end" when you hit max level because that's one of the things to strive for. For RO, and most games, this leaves people currently with basically obtaining gear (considering the current xp tables, they should have all the gear they could need long before this point) and pvp. There really is no end game pvm. Nothing to strive for except the small chance you'll take a castle from one of the big guilds who run this server because, coincidentally, they have monopolized the only fashion of creating the coveted god items. The end game "gear" I refer to needs to not only be pvp accessible. Everyone wants a god item (gear) because they're just that damned good. Not everyone can get one. This games end game is lacking.
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#47 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:38 PM

On that note, one other form of end game is what I've seen suggested before as well. Turning it into a "life" within the game. Housing, pets, families, all that stuff to manage is another ingredient for the cauldron we call end game.
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#48 Cubical

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:39 PM

Grinding is arguably the best way to 'practice' your class. Sure you could go to pvp/woe and play it player vs player. But i believe alot of experimentation and actually learning to play the class comes from grinding. You have to take care not to die, you have to care for other people in the party. And obviously its the best way to make your character stronger for pvp/woe/mvp. Though pvp and woe also have their place among trying out new strategies against real players.

Edited by Cubical, 16 July 2011 - 03:41 PM.

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#49 Tkwan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:41 PM

Grinding is arguably the best way to 'practice' your class. Sure you could go to pvp/woe and play it player vs player. But i believe alot of experimentation and actually learning to play the class comes from grinding. You have to take care not to die, you have to care for other people in the party. And obviously its the best way to make your character stronger for pvp/woe/mvp. Though pvp and woe also have their place among trying out new strategies against real players.


But does it take 1,563,324,000 (that's one billion five hundred sixty three million three hundred and twenty four thousand) experience to learn all that?
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#50 Shunchan

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 05:33 PM

But does it take 1,563,324,000 (that's one billion five hundred sixty three million three hundred and twenty four thousand) experience to learn all that?



Maybe you should stop number crunching and try to find more enjoyable ways to level.

Some players just get discouraged leveling after looking at the big numbers on an EXP table.
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