83 replies to this topic

[FoxyWoxy]

Yeah I realized that after I hit Add Reply, I just didn't feel like changing it. End game in reality is just that. That Fin/Game Over/End Game screen. However we don't see these in MMO's because it would be completely redundant of the design. The closest definition to end game we can get in an mmo is something to keep us playing once the game "ends". Game's are considered to "end" when you hit max level because that's one of the things to strive for. For RO, and most games, this leaves people currently with basically obtaining gear (considering the current xp tables, they should have all the gear they could need long before this point) and pvp. There really is no end game pvm. Nothing to strive for except the small chance you'll take a castle from one of the big guilds who run this server because, coincidentally, they have monopolized the only fashion of creating the coveted god items. The end game "gear" I refer to needs to not only be pvp accessible. Everyone wants a god item (gear) because they're just that damned good. Not everyone can get one. This games end game is lacking.

Aren't you STILL talking about grinding for gear instead of levels? Anyway sorry to trouble you with all this it's just if it was up to me I would want to try making all parts of the game enjoyable not just after getting all levels or gear on a character.

[Cubical]

But does it take 1,563,324,000 (that's one billion five hundred sixty three million three hundred and twenty four thousand) experience to learn all that?

1 word phrase

high risk leveling, folks who played in Bio3? Yea most parties only invited players who where AMAZING at their class, because if you up you were dead

Edited by Cubical, 16 July 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[Tkwan]

Anyway sorry to trouble you with all this it's just if it was up to me I would want to try making all parts of the game enjoyable not just after getting all levels or gear on a character.

Of course. I never meant just one aspect of the game to be fun. I personally enjoy RO. I think its a game with great potential. I also think that this potential is being tossed down the crapper with the way the game is being run. Nothing against gravity, but they need to step up their game and get on the ball. The updates and events are rolling just fine. But there's so many other important things that need addressing that are getting pushed aside.


Keep in mind I'm a returning player from long ago. Not someones who's been here complaining for a long time. This is the views of someone who's only 3 months old in renewal and has been able to witness, and discern whats going on here. I'm giving my opinion on things completely as a "new" player. Imagine what the actual new people must feel like. I want to see this game become better in all aspects. Trust me. I wouldn't-_- if I didn't care.

Edited by Tkwan, 16 July 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[Puppet]

that guy is my new best friend game have devovled in to easy ass games that cant compare to the good old days of gaming

[Kaillera]

What usually keeps me playing even with lots of grinding, is when there's some equality between players and players, as well as monsters and players.

Mabinogi for instance, I played for three years. I recently stopped because I out-played the contents. I can't do a three week process for more than over seventy times anymore. Gears? They're there to make you look nice and upgrade it the way you want. You're not that much crappy than a person with full gears as long as you possess some skills and knowledge. I'm level 3500 in it, but some level 300 could still kick my ass with the right technique. A super high level dungeon can still level me up as long as I know how to avoid getting damaged.

Ragnarok's sort of is in the right direction, but the grind is just terrible at levels 95-150. Monsters becomes too over powered in health with no decent reward. I kinda liked it when I transcend, because I had to redo a process that was gradually easier. What I hope is the level cap against killing high level monsters are removed, because if we can do it, why not? I never seen console RPG blocking high level contents and rewards completely.

I think it's just that games should let you be anywhere as long as you're skilled, not because some digits says you're going to get mauled over, and you get rewarded nicely just as anywhere else. Which reminds me, why not use a Fixed Death Penalty that isn't based on your EXP Bar? I can't stand to sit around for an hour to make up the exp for some death. Maybe 20000 EXP lost would've been nice enough at 95, but to make me kill back 100-900 with a single target attack character is not fun (Dancer and Gypsy to name a few. We should've gotton some Armegeddon attack by now at the cost of 30%+ SP cost).

Edited by Kaillera, 16 July 2011 - 10:17 PM.

[Mischelle]

There's a few different methods that I've noticed from experience that make games successful(talking MMOs, not consoles).

Based on the quality;

Medium grind -> Medium endgame
Low grind -> High endgame

But Ragnarok in it's current form is...

High grind -> What endgame?

Sure, you're working towards a goal, but after you make it to that goal, what's there to do? Sure you can grind some more to get better gear, or WoE/MvP, but realistically, that's all still a grind.

Edit: for the record, I'm having a blast in this discussion, I'm finding the input extremely interesting.

Wrong so wrong.

The only game in RO is endgame. You need to grind for months in order to play with other people. The only endgame there is in RO is WoE. All boss hunting and gear farming revolves around how effective what you get is in WoE. So tell me that you can legit play WoE before level 130. You can't. High grind -> finally at a level to actually play the game.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

I like grinding. It's what makes RPGs RPGs. if there was no grinding, where would the replay value come from? Grinding is in many cases what makes an rpg fun (dsgaea) it's just that its poorly implimented in RO.

[Puppet]

Wrong so wrong.

The only game in RO is endgame. You need to grind for months in order to play with other people. The only endgame there is in RO is WoE. All boss hunting and gear farming revolves around how effective what you get is in WoE. So tell me that you can legit play WoE before level 130. You can't. High grind -> finally at a level to actually play the game.

Yah so just to particpate in WOE and actaul some what enjoy woe you have to 130+ and you to have ATLEAST Good gear. not decent, not ok gear just to stand a chance and even then its one shot bs fest of broke freaking skills and mechanic that will never be fixed, that not the kind of end game people want.

Atlest gravity learned from there mistake in RO for Requeim and removed all notion if CARDS,GOD ITEMS and made the Ulitmate "pvp" "woe" gear available to everyone and made Restance that works and Def system that work in comparison to ro, but it obviously that will never be fix in RO and I dont see WOE in RO as end game no more I see it as more slap in the face on just how broke and unblance woe and RO in general is now People went on for years on how RENEWAL would fix the game but guess what it broke it more and Pre renewal woe was much more fun then this this BS one SHOT fest people want to call an end game know as woe in renewal

I like grinding. It's what makes RPGs RPGs. if there was no grinding, where would the replay value come from? Grinding is in many cases what makes an rpg fun (dsgaea) it's just that its poorly implimented in RO.

I love grinding but not in MMO'S but in RPG's OLD SCHOOL RPGS, not the new age crap they call RPGS, Where talking nes snes ps1 age of rpgs, Boss battles that beat you ass till you where of sufficient lvl and gear, random battles with orges and harpies, now it days it all about the flashy graphics and cut scenes, and ACTION Baseed combat systems that seem to do the battle for you. or have some gun battle system, that is actual 3rd person shoting passed off as RPG elements as RPG game.

To me RPG will always mean Turn based battles system. with lots grind that reward you with the ability to beat the last boss once you high enough level, and not get your ass one shots, cause of unbalance broke ass in the game

Edited by Puppet, 17 July 2011 - 05:58 AM.

[Zeniachan]

I feel that the problem with MMORPGs that lack at least a moderate grind (specifically games like WoW where everything is based on quests) is that you might spend more time traveling and sightseeing than participating in combat. Ragnarok used to be especially good about this. I like the combat. The sitting for SP when soloing (always on a budget, lol) not so much, but it's manageable. To be honest, I don't mind repetitive gameplay as long as the gameplay itself is fun. If it's fun, keep it coming!

There is, however, a trend in modern gaming (primarily in MMOGs) that I really don't like. Sometimes, developers will dumb things down so much for players, and practically spoil them with an overload of easy stuff. When the majority of in-game tasks lack challenge, and the rewards also end up being mediocre or just downright crappy, you basically feel like it's a complete waste of time. Newbie quests are a great example of this in a lot of modern MMOGs. It might be just me, but I always feel more accomplished as a gamer if I'm adequately challenged, and then rewarded well for surviving that challenge. Otherwise I just get bored, realize it probably won't be worth it to play any further, and quit. I'd say RO's been a bit borderline with this in the past year or two, but there's worse out there.

Also, lol @ people complaining about losing almost 1m exp per death at level 149. At 98 trans pre-renewal, you'd lose almost 3m exp (1%) per death on Premium servers (basically the equivalent of VIP status now) and roughly 8m exp (3%) per death on Valkyrie. Kids these days, lol.

[Tkwan]

I feel that the problem with MMORPGs that lack at least a moderate grind (specifically games like WoW where everything is based on quests) is that you might spend more time traveling and sightseeing than participating in combat. Ragnarok used to be especially good about this. I like the combat. The sitting for SP when soloing (always on a budget, lol) not so much, but it's manageable. To be honest, I don't mind repetitive gameplay as long as the gameplay itself is fun. If it's fun, keep it coming!

There is, however, a trend in modern gaming (primarily in MMOGs) that I really don't like. Sometimes, developers will dumb things down so much for players, and practically spoil them with an overload of easy stuff. When the majority of in-game tasks lack challenge, and the rewards also end up being mediocre or just downright crappy, you basically feel like it's a complete waste of time. Newbie quests are a great example of this in a lot of modern MMOGs. It might be just me, but I always feel more accomplished as a gamer if I'm adequately challenged, and then rewarded well for surviving that challenge. Otherwise I just get bored, realize it probably won't be worth it to play any further, and quit. I'd say RO's been a bit borderline with this in the past year or two, but there's worse out there.

Also, lol @ people complaining about losing almost 1m exp per death at level 149. At 98 trans pre-renewal, you'd lose almost 3m exp (1%) per death on Premium servers (basically the equivalent of VIP status now) and roughly 8m exp (3%) per death on Valkyrie. Kids these days, lol.

The point that I think most western gamer's want to get across to the eastern developers, is that we don't like mindless grinds as a whole. We want objective grinding. Quests are objective grinding, and generally tell a story along with it. This makes it actually entertaining to play a game. RO is mostly mindless grinding for FAR too long. The option needs to be there in the western world for people to quest for exp, or grind for it, and be able to achieve the same thing in the same amount of time.

Grinding is by no means difficult or challenging. It's repetitive, tedious, and boring. They wouldn't be dumbing anything down by making us have to grind less.

Also, yeah, you lost more exp back in pre-renewal. Monsters also gave a heck of alot more exp than they do now too.

[Anko]

The point is that alot of people don't feel its really worth the effort to even bother with woe/pvping because they are going to get stomped by the people who are 150. Many of the 150's have max or close to max job levels which will always give them the edge versus other classes. I had said they need to make everything accessible by all players. The dungeon reference was an example. Pvp/woe is accessible, but completely pointless for anyone trying to take a castle without a high 3rd job base/jlvl as they'll get slammed by people owning God items. It isn't right that the best items in the game are limited to the few who own castles for long enough, or who save up for years just to buy out one item. That is why I suggested in the following post a PvM challenge that would beat the god item's. Then everyone has access to it, and woe becomes more balanced, as not only a few have the items to allow them to smash faces. This would balance out woe/pvp and give the pvm people a shot at enjoying this game all at the same time. That is accessibility.

Edit- I'll bite on your last comment; I'm an AB. I know a fix to this classes leveling would be making ME holy damage like someone in some other thread said. Unfortunately, thats still a 2nd class skill out doing a 3rd class skill, wherein lies another problem, but this is for a different discussion. I level mostly with close friends, and occasionally I'll head out on my own. All this is really neither here nor there. Like I said, I'm just biting.

The difference between 145-150 imo is very little for most classes - you just need to learn to prioritise the skills you are getting. Granted some classes certainly do need a high job level to operate efficiently like AB to get secrament and clearance in woe.

The pvm challenge/grind for gears is available - mvping for mvp cards/gears, doing seal quests for kvm badges (for some classes a high upgrade kvm weapon is the equivalent or in fact better than a god item), earning zeny for better gears/god items. Everyone does have access to this stuff - the question is how people approach it and how much work they are willing to put in. The combined effort of a group of individuals is obviously going to be greater than that of an individual.

I do see some individuals that are stacked and i make a choice of how much i am willing to put in to compete with them - sometimes the decision tells me to take the easy route and use a class that just disables them as those type of builds are far easier to gear. Seriously i don't need to be number 1 to enjoy a game - usually that involves a sh1tload of work i am not prepared to put in.

PVP is great on the one hand to help you improve your pvp/woe skills. It's just that it is filled with little kids stacked with gear who like to trash talk.

Since you are AB i will concede that levelling them is certainly harder than some other classes. I gave up on mine and just levelled something else and return to it during a good turn in event or with seal 2.

[Cubical]

I dont bother with PVP and sometimes woe because of others being more organized/stacked. The use of items in these maps kinda brings the game into he who can mash his pots harder wins. For the better pvp experiance i prefer playing console fighting games centered around balance. Thats just my personal preference though, since i feel games centered around fighting offer a better competitive atmosphere.

Edited by Cubical, 17 July 2011 - 08:27 AM.

[Shunchan]

The point that I think most western gamer's want to get across to the eastern developers, is that we don't like mindless grinds as a whole. We want objective grinding. Quests are objective grinding, and generally tell a story along with it. This makes it actually entertaining to play a game. RO is mostly mindless grinding for FAR too long. The option needs to be there in the western world for people to quest for exp, or grind for it, and be able to achieve the same thing in the same amount of time.

MMOs do not revolve around western gamers. Eastern developers do not have to bend their will to westerners to be successful. MMOs have been successful even before WoW came out. I have played EQ1, EQ2, FFXI, and RO in its alpha version, naming a few. WoW's only success is its easiness made it appealing to the casual gamers. I know several people who quit the games I mentioned who went to WoW because they could not handle the competition and also people from WoW who left the game because it was too easy and they were looking for more challenge.

There is also "objective grinding" in this game by doing quests, but people still complain that they are too long complete and the reward not worth it. Let me ask you this: have you done each and every quest to find out the lore in this game without reading the guides?

Since you are AB i will concede that levelling them is certainly harder than some other classes. I gave up on mine and just levelled something else and return to it during a good turn in event or with seal 2.

I am not sure where you find out that he is an AB because he did not mention it in any post in this thread.

I dont bother with PVP and sometimes woe because of others being more organized/stacked. The use of items in these maps kinda brings the game into he who can mash his pots harder wins. For the better pvp experiance i prefer playing console fighting games centered around balance. Thats just my personal preference though, since i feel games centered around fighting offer a better competitive atmosphere.

Bottom line is players do not like competition especially when losing against other players. I have known people who hated PvP and contested zones. Any NPC mobs can be defeated by mostly learning the AI but other player characters can change their strategy and use their resources to their advantage.

EDIT: some typos

Edited by Shunchan, 17 July 2011 - 09:26 AM.

[Kamen]

The only time I ever enjoyed grinding in RO was during the ID3/AL3 turn-in events (pre-renewal)

Lots of people to party with. It still took hours to get levels, but the progress was VISIBLE enough to keep people playing for 8+ hours straight.

The turn-in events suck now because the rewards are terrible. I like how they tried to promote party play by giving everyone 20% bonus exp, but then they had to remove exp completely from TI monsters. Back-pedaling of the highest degree.

[Tkwan]

MMOs do not revolve around western gamers. Eastern developers do not have to bend their will to westerners to be successful. MMOs have been successful even before WoW came out. I have played EQ1, EQ2, FFXI, and RO in its alpha version, naming a few. WoW's only success is its easiness made it appealing to the casual gamers. I know several people who quit the games I mentioned who went to WoW because they could not handle the competition and also people from WoW who left the game because it was too easy and they were looking for more challenge.

There is also "objective grinding" in this game by doing quests, but people still complain that they are too long complete and the reward not worth it. Let me ask you this: have you done each and every quest to find out the lore in this game without reading the guides?

WoW, regardless of yours or anyone elses argument, is a successful MMORPG. There is no question, and no denying that. To have success, you need to cater to casuals, and hardcore alike. Most of the people that leave WoW are leaving because they are tired of it(not because of any level of difficulty or lack of). Coincidentally, Blizzard is also making a new MMO because they know their community is gradually growing tired of WoW.

Let me ask you this: What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

I am not sure where you find out that he is an AB because he did not mention it in any post in this thread.

Yes I did.

[Shunchan]

WoW, regardless of yours or anyone elses argument, is a successful MMORPG. There is no question, and no denying that. To have success, you need to cater to casuals, and hardcore alike. Most of the people that leave WoW are leaving because they are tired of it(not because of any level of difficulty or lack of). Coincidentally, Blizzard is also making a new MMO because they know their community is gradually growing tired of WoW.

Let me ask you this: What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Bad come back.

"Go back to WoW."

[Tkwan]

Bad come back.

"Go back to WoW."

Creative. I totally didn't see that one coming.

You didn't add anything to advance this topic with that post. Stop trolling.

WoW has been used as a reference by me and many other players because they set the standard in modern day gaming. If you're not at par, you're above or below it. This game doesn't fall on the above line by a long shot. Maybe gravity needs more staff. Maybe they need more money. Maybe maybe maybe. All we know is what they tell us, and what they tell us is very little. All we really have to run off of are their actions. Their actions say "This is our game, we're doing it our way. You might pay for this game, but what we want is what matters. Not what you want."

[Shunchan]

Creative. I totally didn't see that one coming.

You didn't add anything to advance this topic with that post. Stop trolling.

WoW has been used as a reference by me and many other players because they set the standard in modern day gaming. If you're not at par, you're above or below it. This game doesn't fall on the above line by a long shot. Maybe gravity needs more staff. Maybe they need more money. Maybe maybe maybe. All we know is what they tell us, and what they tell us is very little. All we really have to run off of are their actions. Their actions say "This is our game, we're doing it our way. You might pay for this game, but what we want is what matters. Not what you want."

The line never gets old and it works very well.

Also, you are the one who trolled by deflecting a simple yes-or-no question...

Let me ask you this: have you done each and every quest to find out the lore in this game without reading the guides?

with this stupidity...

Let me ask you this: What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Nobody was forcing you to answer my question but trying to post a dumb comeback will not get you anywhere.

[valarauko]

Grinding for me requires a 12 pack and a lot of streaming music.

[Tkwan]

Grinding for me requires a 12 pack and a lot of streaming music.

Think of your liver! It's crying right now. Like this one. http://profile.ak.fb...4_6185133_n.jpg

[Tkwan]

The line never gets old and it works very well.

Also, you are the one who trolled by deflecting a simple yes-or-no question...



with this stupidity...



Nobody was forcing you to answer my question but trying to post a dumb comeback will not get you anywhere.

I suppose I will explain this to you. It is not a "comeback", I like to think I'm more mature than that which is why I ignored you at first and didn't want to continue. However I do believe you didn't even understand what I had meant, so I will make it easier to understand. The price of tea in china has nothing to do with anything. It's an expression. What did your question have to do with anything? I answered your nonsense with that nonsense because there was no reason to answer your question rationally.

Congratulations, you've made me divert off the topic to play this game with you. I hope you're happy.

[FoxyWoxy]

Yes WoW is popular, so is lady gaga and justin bieber, it does NOT make it right.

[Shunchan]

I suppose I will explain this to you. It is not a "comeback", I like to think I'm more mature than that which is why I ignored you at first and didn't want to continue. However I do believe you didn't even understand what I had meant, so I will make it easier to understand. The price of tea in china has nothing to do with anything. It's an expression. What did your question have to do with anything? I answered your nonsense with that nonsense because there was no reason to answer your question rationally.

Congratulations, you've made me divert off the topic to play this game with you. I hope you're happy.

We want objective grinding. Quests are objective grinding, and generally tell a story along with it.

There is also "objective grinding" in this game by doing quests, but people still complain that they are too long complete and the reward not worth it. Let me ask you this: have you done each and every quest to find out the lore in this game without reading the guides?

Amusing.

[Tkwan]

Yes WoW is popular, so is lady gaga and justin bieber, it does NOT make it right.

Right or not, they have the popular formula's. And if businesses/merchants want to make money, that have to go with what sells. If they go their way, there's no guarantee that they will succeed. This game is currently going into a pitfall because its following the route they want to. Gravity's formula is not working. If it were then the complaints would be much much fewer in number and about trivial things.

Shun, the objective grinding we have is not worth it. Story and reward for completing the tasks need to go hand in hand. It's simply not worth even putting for the effort for if you only have story. No one wants to do the work they require on those quests for the paltry amount of xp they give. The only exceptions to the questing is the access quests, which people do for access to new areas, not for the xp.

Edited by Tkwan, 17 July 2011 - 11:20 PM.

[lightmike]

Grinding for me requires a 12 pack and a lot of streaming music.

i replace your 12 pack with something home grown, but definitely so.