68 replies to this topic

[Susan]

My stance is all servers should have equal features, with the only difference being Ymir has the paywall as an attempt to curb bots. The invonvenience of paying one time and getting other value for what you paid (VIP membership) is a VERY minor cost to ensure you have a bot free environment. In fat, I'd pay an extra $7/mo on top of what I already do if Ygg was guaranteed virtually bot free. So either all servers need to have no reset stones for 3rd job, or all need to require it. And I certainly doubt Gravity will remove this form of income/bot reduction measure.

This isn't about ymir. I think Xellie never mentioned other servers herself (himself?) until someone called out for "ymir to be threated the same way as others". I don't think Xellie really cares about other servers anyway, the argument between you guys is a bit pointless.


So,
I say even on other servers jobchange should be free. Theres already plenty of stuff added with VIP so that people are going to pay for it.
Who the hell would not get VIP, jobchange using stones and then level without VIP?
Yea, returning players who try out the game again.

Though:
Which server is more likely to have really old returning players? Valk or Ymir? or ygg?

[Heimdallr]

If the Reset stones were not tradable then this change would be a much larger problem.

If reset stones costs from player vends gets too high I assure you someone will come in and undercut them, because there is a fixed cost on the entry of the Reset Stones their price should be somewhat stable. If they went too high we may actually take steps to have a zeny -> Reset stone exchange put in game just so the price has a ceiling (I don't think it will come to that).

Transing costs over 1M zeny to do, why shouldn't 3rd class have a cost? And that point aside we do want to make the creating of characters on Ymir easier for non-bots, we do intend on having events to help facilitate that (our goal on the char creation was NOT to keep new players out, it was to keep bots out).

The initial, not having the reset stone restriction, was exactly so old returning players could immediately get in game, because at somepoint they did indeed pay to play on that account, but now we have had it open long enough that the rush for them 3rd job changing has passed. VIP is a very good thing to have on an account, this is one more thing that the VIP system is good for (and if you were leveling up the character diligently then VIP on the account wouldn't be a surprise).

I do understand the emotional feel of this from your perspective, and we have done as much as we can to make in-game workarounds to get the reset stone possible.

[Renaldoo]

It is pretty well in the nature of Ragnarok's vend-system (with the aid of Ragial) that price ceilings will not be an issue. Many many people regularly sell Kafra items as their source of in-game income. At 100p/stone, Reset stones are one of the easiest commodities to deal. Naturally, if the KP-Zeny ratio is substantially higher on the reset stones, that will be their sale item of choice. There is no restriction or limitation on reset stones, and no individual can monopolize that market, so it will be very quick to find its balance of "If I go any higher than this, they'll just buy someone else's" and "if I go any lower than this, it'd be better to sell HD ores/neuralizers." If the balance starts shifting towards one side, the complementary monetary gain associated with the other side will pull back. Once it reaches equilibrium it'll just be a matter of more subtle changes, such as time of day, amount of time that has elapsed since popular pay-days for the sellers, and proximity on the calendar to leveling events/spiked interest in activity involving reset stones.


All things being considered, the cost of a reset stone (Either in KP or zeny) is a pretty mild investment compared to what a player spends getting up to that point, and where they'll go beyond it. Until recently it cost just over 1 mil to rebirth-- when transcendent classes first came out, that 1 mil was significantly higher value than the 5~7 mil a reset stone might cost to buy from other players now.

Edited by Renaldoo, 18 July 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[Kamikadze]

"Next Tuesday's maintenance" 19 or 26?

[Xellie]

If the Reset stones were not tradable then this change would be a much larger problem.

If reset stones costs from player vends gets too high I assure you someone will come in and undercut them, because there is a fixed cost on the entry of the Reset Stones their price should be somewhat stable. If they went too high we may actually take steps to have a zeny -> Reset stone exchange put in game just so the price has a ceiling (I don't think it will come to that).

Transing costs over 1M zeny to do, why shouldn't 3rd class have a cost? And that point aside we do want to make the creating of characters on Ymir easier for non-bots, we do intend on having events to help facilitate that (our goal on the char creation was NOT to keep new players out, it was to keep bots out).

The initial, not having the reset stone restriction, was exactly so old returning players could immediately get in game, because at somepoint they did indeed pay to play on that account, but now we have had it open long enough that the rush for them 3rd job changing has passed. VIP is a very good thing to have on an account, this is one more thing that the VIP system is good for (and if you were leveling up the character diligently then VIP on the account wouldn't be a surprise).

I do understand the emotional feel of this from your perspective, and we have done as much as we can to make in-game workarounds to get the reset stone possible.

Maybe if third cost a fixed amount of zeny it'd attack the inflation in a productive kinda way.

[Akin]

Maybe if third cost a fixed amount of zeny it'd attack the inflation in a productive kinda way.

I actually never understood why they removed the zeny cost to Trans, while under VIP status, for this very reason.

Zeny sinks = good for the economy.
Money sinks = good for Gravity LLC.

There has to be a balance in there. Currently, there's way too much Zeny on Ymir considering the population.

[Sera]

Myzery: Hi Sera

Hi.

[Susan]

Making VIP more worth it shouldn't be enforced by nerfing non-VIP stuff in my opinion

Transing costs over 1M zeny to do, why shouldn't 3rd class have a cost?

because it asks for reset stones (cash item) not zeny.
also it's a lot more confusing having to buy a "reset stone" to "jobchange" from a random player or kafra shop than dealing zeny to a NPC who asks for zeny.

[Renaldoo]

because it asks for reset stones (cash item) not zeny.
also it's a lot more confusing having to buy a "reset stone" to "jobchange" from a random player or kafra shop than dealing zeny to a NPC who asks for zeny.

How would you feel if the cost was, say, 5~6 Million zeny-- or the fee could be waived with a reset stone?

Edited by Renaldoo, 18 July 2011 - 02:53 PM.

[Kadelia]

You're an idiot for assuming that it affected me, I never said that it did, just that I think Gravity are being as retarded as you are when you drop $400 on kafra points (OH WAIT THEY LIKE THAT) - I have a bunch of cards that offer 3 days free VIP time (I'll post a picture if you want), I don't even actually play except for slaving people on my ~150~ AB or screwing around on one of my 10 third classers and I fart zeny so see if I PERSONALLY care about that!

Stop assuming every time I point out something as being retarded that I want special treatment or some crap, I don't. I'm looking at the people around me and listening to them.

>> PLAYERS should not dictate the cost of changing job<<


I'm all for them making profit and everything but they initially stated the reset stone requirement was to "prevent bots" .... if not prevent bots, why should it exist on a server with it's bot preventing paywall? Oh right, they want more money. Fair enough, they're a company.... that's pissing off their customers. Does it not concern you that people shouldn't be able to charge what they want for a reset stone, thereby potentially making part of the game inaccessible? Free to play... my ass! It's a retarded idea.

Spare a thought for the old players that are coming back because "RO is free now lets try it" .... what are they gonna think about that? They're .... actually they do think its crap! Wasn't that the point on Ymir? For those old returning players to "try" the new RO? Good luck getting them to try it for free on their 99 trans.... and hitting a paywall.

It actually makes Grav look like they don't really care if their customers are having a good gaming experience, so long as they are getting $$

Well that's not the RO I used to play. Before I didn't care about paying them because they maintained some actually playing in the game.

Maybe if third cost a fixed amount of zeny it'd attack the inflation in a productive kinda way.

:facepalm:

No, Xellie.

It was stated from the very beginning Ymir had the expanded storage and the free 3rd job change so that premium players would have an easier transition and didn't go cold turkey overnight when logging in after the VIP system. This was stated very clearly.

Second, the open servers are Valkyrie/Yggdrasil. New players/returning players who want to start fresh go there, not Ymir. And they will hit a paywall there for 3rd job. It affects all 3 servers now, as intended. We have a lot of bots on Yggdrasil-- but most aren't 3rd job, thankfully. You can buy the stones off players, and it is inflation that dictates their cost, not players. This means the price of the stones scales with the economy, which is better for siphoning money out than a fixed cost from the GMs. Take a chill pill and take economics 101 while you're at it.

Edited by Jaye, 18 July 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[Renaldoo]

This means the price of the stones scales with the economy, which is better for siphoning money out than a fixed cost from the GMs.

That doesn't siphon any money out, it only changes hands. A fixed zeny cost lessens the amount of fluid zeny on the server. A reset stone purchased for zeny and later consumed for the 3rd-class has caused zero net change, the same amount of zeny is still on the server-- a little bit of it has just changed hands.

[Xellie]

words

I think you should take an economics lesson. Zeny changing hands does NOT remove it from the server. that is what is needed. Zeny needs to disappear. Not accumulate on peoples accounts so that simple noob gear costs millions and millions. And then getting into the game is hard because NPC loot never reaches that high. Whilst that might be moot in Ymir, it is very very very true for valkyrie and is the direction that Ygg will head in.
MMO economics 101.
Compare it to America if you like and how worthless the US Dollar is due to the overabundance of them. Same thing but in real life!

What happens on Ymir should not concern you anyway, you HATE the server with a passion (the feeling is mutual, the server hates you too), therefore it is logical to deduce that any posts you make regarding the future of Ymir are biased.

What heim said makes sense... mostly. There are still players returning though and a paywall to experience the new part of RO does put them off. We are not talking about people who start fresh. I'm talking about quitted level 99s who log in and can't do anything "new".
The storage expansion / VIP change in storage was abandoned for that reason.....because it would hurt people coming back to experience the game. I assume you didn't pay much attention because it didn't affect you.
People involved in the community like myself know for a fact that many players are coming back - Players are the ones that are asked most about the changes, what to do etc. I've been asked a lot in the past week. So yes, I find the change concerning.

As for players not manipulating the price, they will. It's very very easy to raise the price on any item. All you need is a couple of venders and some friends. Jack the price up, people look on ragial, see the high price and go "ooooh awesome profit". I could demonstrate this, I've done it with a few items, but doing it with reset stones would be immoral.

[Kadelia]

Xellie you write an awful lot without ever saying anything. You posture a bunch, say insulting things, and you don't even have a new point to make. Your only point you have made so far, with nothing new introduce above, is you don't like the paywall on 3rd jobs, and you're bitching and whining about it. Heimdallr and his crew have a reasoning for it, and its not going to change. Its not even that unreasonable. Find something more constructive to do than repeating yourself infinitely and attacking people.

[Xellie]

brb repping myself on an alt account and taking things personally on the forums. Kaddy, the things you just said have nothing to do with this discussion at all. You turn everything into a fight X_X no wonder the wikimods want to ban you only to tirades. I think that it's disgusting that you're attempting to abuse the forums to make your points seem popular when it's infact only you abusing the reputation system. For what? character assassination? If you had real friends you wouldn't need alt accounts. (yeah guess what the joke is on our vent atm.... hint... ITS YOU!)

You just got refuted to hell and resorted to an insult. Maybe if you could just accept that I don't like it without having to fight all the time, perhaps then I wouldn't feel the need to clarify my reasoning further. Many people are agreeing with me though (as per usual) - and so I put forth suggestions on how to improve the game that we all love, because we've seen that community feedback is an evil necessity.

It takes all types to make a community and not everyone is going to agree with everyone.

HOWEVER ON TOPIC!

So for me personally, who may be affected by this change in the future (although in a laughable way) and for my friends who are returning to RO, I have put forward the reasoning why it's disliked and have opened conversation into alternatives... I have no issue paying zeny for a job change if the zeny is removed from the server and is a fixed price, not determined by the players current rate of zeny-KP exchange. I would even do that as VIP too.

Infact I would welcome that as a change if it was an alternative to buying a reset stone with kp or from a player. I have concerns about the path iRO is taking, I don't want to see it becoming a whoever throws most cash at it being the strongest. We already have that through illegal RMT and if you don't think it's a big deal, I can name single players that have spent over $10,000 in illegal mvp and god item RMT this year.

So encouraging more use of USD -> zeny really is probably more damaging than people think, you can't even begin to fathom how much cash people are willing to throw at this game. Somewhere in there, there has to be a happy medium between gameplay and profit.

Edited by Xellie, 19 July 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[Kadelia]

^ case in point

[Anko]

Correct, but there isstill an essential difference between the servers.

I don't see why we should have to pay to get on to the server and then pay to access a normal-non optional part of the game (third class) - if you really want people to buy the reset stones to make money, do it so Ymir can merely skip the quest with them.

Wow i'd totally buy the stone just to skip some of the longer job change quests i'm so lazy.

This change doesn't affect me really and i understand the need for gravity to make profit. However, i think it might ultimately be shortsighted. Players that come back cos it is f2p might not want to make that investment. If they change class and get sucked in again - in the long run they will probably end up spending more than the initial $1 for a reset stone.

I'd say keep job change still free but allow ppl to bypass the quest with a stone. I know quite a few ppl who would buy them out of laziness or cos they can't get past the job change.

Edited by Anko, 19 July 2011 - 06:48 AM.

[Renaldoo]

Infact I would welcome that as a change if it was an alternative to buying a reset stone with kp or from a player. I have concerns about the path iRO is taking, I don't want to see it becoming a whoever throws most cash at it being the strongest. We already have that through illegal RMT and if you don't think it's a big deal, I can name single players that have spent over $10,000 in illegal mvp and god item RMT this year.

Wow. I won't venture to ask who they are... but rather, what the hell did they buy?

[Hrishi]

Multiple god item/mvp cards?

[Xellie]

Wow. I won't venture to ask who they are... but rather, what the hell did they buy?

This isn't the place for that D: