26 replies to this topic

[Roman]

I wanted to get a feel for how the community overall views this topic before putting it in the suggestion thread.
First off, I am not talking about the dmg reduction. This has always bugged me to be quite honest.

The flee reduction in woe.
1. There has always been a way to counter flee anyway, with Archer classes and their 99 dex, Crit builds that bypass flee entirely, Magic ignores it.
2. The second Trans classes came out I think they should have removed the flee reduction. In addition to the original counters, they gave classes skills that would bypass flee as well.
3. Now that third classes came out, im fairly certain that most builds have a minimum of 70 dex (thats just for pvm) and most go to 100. Not to mention even more skills that ignore flee.

Why is flee still reduced in woe? Classes with high flee already have lower health 90% of the time. Damage was reduced to keep battles going longer.

and let the flaming begin =\

Edited by Roman, 08 November 2011 - 11:20 AM.

[JAYRAD]

gx and chasers have the 2nd highest hp mod, i dont wanna hear a single thing about them having less health than everyone else.

[FiskBlack]

It would be better if there is not WoE reduction to magical atacks, since is almost useless now.

WoE reduction is absolutely needed, just cause people can use Green Ales now, they cant see how fast they can drop by many 3rd class dps skills.

Also, flee even in pre-renewal was always penalized, not sure why you are complaining about that, is not like agi classes can do much in WoE... except Crit GX's.

Edited by FiskBlack, 20 July 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[Nitro]

Enough flee to dodge Ifrit 95%, yet I can't remember the last time I dodged something in WoE since Renewal hit. I wonder if it has something to do with players starting with 175 Hit and only 100 flee?

[JAYRAD]

the only class that should be able to flee in woe (gx) already has a skill that can make it to where skills that are hit dependent can miss. so flee is completely balanced in woe.

[Roman]

gx and chasers have the 2nd highest hp mod, i dont wanna hear a single thing about them having less health than everyone else.

Point taken.

It would be better if there is not WoE reduction to magical atacks, since is almost useless now.WoE reduction is absolutely needed, just cause people can use Green Ales now, they cant see how fast they can drop by many 3rd class dps skills.Also, flee even in pre-renewal was always penalized, not sure why you are complaining about that, is not like agi classes can do much in WoE... except Crit GX's.

I agree about magic attacks, but that is off topic. Ales will disappear eventually, but people will just go back to fruit/slims unless a timer is addes, also off topic. As for why I am complaining about it now, like I said it has always bugged me, and renewal changed so much, why not give more options. And finally: oh my! maybe this would increase woe activity? Its not much to go on, but at least it gives agility chars something /swt

the only class that should be able to flee in woe (gx) already has a skill that can make it to where skills that are hit dependent can miss. so flee is completely balanced in woe.

Why is it exactly that they are the only class that should be able to flee? Chasers are also part of the thief branch, which gets improve dodge. Archers can gain high flee as well due to improve concentration, and before you get into the trap vs bow ranger, yes fire/ice traps are brokenly powerful and its the "smart" way to go.

Edited by Roman, 20 July 2011 - 10:38 AM.

[kati3]

Why is it exactly that they are the only class that should be able to flee? Chasers are also part of the thief branch, which gets improve dodge. Archers can gain high flee as well due to improve concentration, and before you get into the trap vs bow ranger, yes fire/ice traps are brokenly powerful and its the "smart" way to go.

I think he's talking about hallucination walk.
And traps really arent all that powerful.

[Neba]

HW in woe sucks.

If there was no cooldown, I would agree with you, unfortunately that is not the case.

[HRdevil]

Crit is overrated, double attack is the way to go.

[Roman]

I think he's talking about hallucination walk.And traps really arent all that powerful.

He is talking about hallucination walk, but I asked why he thought they were the only classes that should flee.
From what I have seen with traps, they are:
decently strong doing ~7k per trap(this is with 60 int), spammable, placed directly underneath target, 10 sp per cast, and cost 152z per cast.

Crit is overrated, double attack is the way to go.

Random and off-topic, but I agree with you here, the change to crit from pre-renewal has made crit not that great, aside from lack of dex.

[Roman]

Saw another thread about the same topic, here just wondering if any one had new opinions because I still support this idea


Roman

[Tofu]

Random and off-topic, but I agree with you here, the change to crit from pre-renewal has made crit not that great, aside from lack of dex.

On the contrary, with proper gear crit damage increasing gear, crits do more than 2x damage, meaning more than double attack in addition to ignoring flee and having over 100% crit, meaning double attack is inferior in every single way. Unless you're talking about emp breaking, but then that's something entirely different.

[Mefistofeles]

Crit is overrated, double attack is the way to go.

in fact, i found double atack dealing more dps and have more aspd(since you need dex to hit)

[kite24]

It would be better if there is not WoE reduction to magical atacks, since is almost useless now.

Ah so the FBH people would rather one shot most people than give them a hard time potting.

[Viri]

He is talking about hallucination walk, but I asked why he thought they were the only classes that should flee.
From what I have seen with traps, they are:
decently strong doing ~7k per trap(this is with 60 int), spammable, placed directly underneath target, 10 sp per cast, and cost 152z per cast.



Random and off-topic, but I agree with you here, the change to crit from pre-renewal has made crit not that great, aside from lack of dex.

So like 3.5k in woe... if you die to that you're probably not doing something right D; They get nerfed even further anyway. Won't even be worth casting it on players in WoE soon enough

[Inubashiri]

I do agree magic needs to be reconsidered in those calculations (I agree with FishBlack about taking out the reduction all together for magic but that is overkill like killing a flee with a shotgun).

[Viri]

They just need to make most of the phsyical attacks not have portions that ignore reduction. The reason magic damage looks extra -_-ty is because its whole damage is reduced by reduction. Most physical skills that hurt, that is not the case

[Wizard]

They just need to make most of the phsyical attacks not have portions that ignore reduction. The reason magic damage looks extra -_-ty is because its whole damage is reduced by reduction. Most physical skills that hurt, that is not the case

If I still remember correctly, Magic is reduced by Element, MDEF, WoE reduction and Demi-Human Reduction in WoE right? MDEF is not as much reduction since it has to be equipment MDEF (quite rare nowdays), Element can't be because spells have their own element and that's what magic is all about... bypassing demi-human could it be, but having magic deal as much as your matk can get is too much OP for people with +9 and more KvM SoD.

Heim state long ago that he can make some spells bypass the WoE reduction and he was asking for a list of spells... but no one followed so I guess it got lost with other more important things to fix.

Any ideas?

[Braska]

, yes fire/ice traps are brokenly powerful and its the "smart" way to go.

They are?

[Mefistofeles]

If I still remember correctly, Magic is reduced by Element, MDEF, WoE reduction and Demi-Human Reduction in WoE right? MDEF is not as much reduction since it has to be equipment MDEF (quite rare nowdays), Element can't be because spells have their own element and that's what magic is all about... bypassing demi-human could it be, but having magic deal as much as your matk can get is too much OP for people with +9 and more KvM SoD.

Heim state long ago that he can make some spells bypass the WoE reduction and he was asking for a list of spells... but no one followed so I guess it got lost with other more important things to fix.

Any ideas?

varetyr spear, earth grave should ignore the woe reduction, those skills are just pathetic, even diamond dust its weak but i have the coold mode debuff at least, in case of pw i think that should be reduced in woe by 30% at least >-<. Fire walk and electric walk and spell fist are the most pathetic magical spells ever XS, they need to ignore racial reductions no doubt

In case of magic IN PVM i think that it must deals 200% damage and for PVP/WOE the normal 100% like the acid bomb does!

Its just my idea....

[Roman]

I was so looking forward to reading all the new posts when I got home from school, only to be disappointed that they are all off-topic


Roman

[Viri]

Removing WoE reduction(doubling a skills damage in WoE) is not the way to go imo.(read EXCEED BREAK) There has to be a better way to handle it.

[Inubashiri]

They just need to make most of the phsyical attacks not have portions that ignore reduction. The reason magic damage looks extra -_-ty is because its whole damage is reduced by reduction. Most physical skills that hurt, that is not the case

I think we could marry our two ideas and find a balance. Something like for example, raise magical damage to like 75% and do something like all WoE MDEF is half. Not sure how to handle the elemental parts of that to be fair so I won't even comment but just move the discussion along. Haseo's idea of certain spells for better or worse take so much to either cast or prepare its stupidly unfair to not be able to use the more cavalier like. Certainly the cast times could be tweaked a bit but not so much to make them OP. My thoughts

/end

[Wizard]

I think we could marry our two ideas and find a balance. Something like for example, raise magical damage to like 75% and do something like all WoE MDEF is half. Not sure how to handle the elemental parts of that to be fair so I won't even comment but just move the discussion along. Haseo's idea of certain spells for better or worse take so much to either cast or prepare its stupidly unfair to not be able to use the more cavalier like. Certainly the cast times could be tweaked a bit but not so much to make them OP. My thoughts

/end

MDEF shouldn't be a problem since the MDEF that counts is from equipment and your normal set up doesn't stack that much... that 75% is not that bad... kinda like having WoE reduction for certain spells to be reduced 25% instead of 50%?

Cast times for magic are good as they are now... stats and DEX matters at the end... plus with the new Staff coming out, spells are going to be hella fast, instant cast can be reached almost same way Ventus work for Sorcerers... Btw, the idea of making a list to increase/reduce damage for some spells wasn't my idea... that came from Heim since he said before that changing WoE reduction for just magic is not possible, but modifying damage for certain spells was more viable...

[Mefistofeles]

MDEF shouldn't be a problem since the MDEF that counts is from equipment and your normal set up doesn't stack that much... that 75% is not that bad... kinda like having WoE reduction for certain spells to be reduced 25% instead of 50%?

Cast times for magic are good as they are now... stats and DEX matters at the end... plus with the new Staff coming out, spells are going to be hella fast, instant cast can be reached almost same way Ventus work for Sorcerers... Btw, the idea of making a list to increase/reduce damage for some spells wasn't my idea... that came from Heim since he said before that changing WoE reduction for just magic is not possible, but modifying damage for certain spells was more viable...

have you used a storm gust? jupitel thunder? meteor storm? etc....