309 replies to this topic

[Kazra]

Could be something like:
Regain Balance Lv. 1 (Active)

Max level: 1
Level Restriction : 40
Required SP :30
Used MP : 1 (could be increased)
Casting Time : 0s
Cool Down Time : 1-2s (or whatever)

Restores your footing, nullifying stun, preventing knockdown, and prevents being launched.
Cannot be used while tranformed into a ninja. Triggers an 8 second cooldown on Ninja frenzy. (To avoid them from being used back-to-back)

lol

[iKnowMyABCs]

I don't think that removing the need to use that would cause any huge impact on skill needed to play. I'd be perfectly fine with Ninjas getting a new active skill that couldn't be used while in ninja forme that would accomplish the same thing. Using Ninja Frenzy for that purpose however, jumping in and then out of the ninja transformation in order to avoid a stun/lock/whatever, seems pretty hackish.

Could be something like:
Regain Balance Lv. 1 (Active)

Max level: 1
Level Restriction : 40
Required SP :30
Used MP : 1 (could be increased)
Casting Time : 0s
Cool Down Time : 1-2s (or whatever)

Restores your footing, nullifying stun, preventing knockdown, and prevents being launched.
Cannot be used while tranformed into a ninja. Triggers an 8 second cooldown on Ninja frenzy. (To avoid them from being used back-to-back)

Edit: actually I forgot that it applies only when you toggle Ninja Frenzy off, not when you turn it on. so Ninja Frenzy could also trigger a cooldown on Regain Balance, and Regain Balance would trigger a cooldown on Ninja Frenzy.

lolwut? That skill doesn't follow any of the ninja game play. (high risk - high reward) It's just EZ MODE.

Edited by iKnowMyABCs, 19 September 2011 - 11:06 PM.

[Jiroxys]

lolwut? That skill doesn't follow any of the ninja game play. (high risk - high reward) It's just EZ MODE.

Well I wasn't sure on what cooldown would be equivalant to the transformation, and my intention was to make it similar enough that it would warrant ninja frenzy builds to go with it instead. (I forgot that it did not affect stuns, but I left it in just as a perk)

Plus, I'll admit that I haven't used ninja frenzy since back in THQ, but I could guess that even though it's instant, it probably locks you in place for a moment as some of the other instant spells on DS do. If it helps, it could do just that (lock you in place) when used, and would only affect stuns, knockdowns, and launches that occur very shortly between being used and after it's use. Like a couple frames. At the very least you guys could try and improve/balance this idea instead of just shoot it down.

Also, no one's really commented on my make-somersault-kick-not-worse-than-air-combo-launch-in-almost-every-way suggestion.

Edited by Jiroxys, 20 September 2011 - 06:12 AM.

[StormHaven]

Why improve something that is fine the way it is? Ninjas are one of the more "balanced" out classes. No need to change or add skills to them
Also some skills are meant to be more skilled based. Not all skills are meant to be "hit this skill and it'll hit 100% always". Just get more practice with it, skills have very interesting tricks about them.

Edited by StormHaven, 20 September 2011 - 07:17 AM.

[Jiroxys]

Why improve something that is fine the way it is? Ninjas are one of the more "balanced" out classes. No need to change or add skills to them
Also some skills are meant to be more skilled based. Not all skills are meant to be "hit this skill and it'll hit 100% always". Just get more practice with it, skills have very interesting tricks about them.

You don't think that abusing the animation cancel on Ninja Frenzy seems hackish?

And my basis on Somersault Kick is that hardly anyone, if anyone even uses it. Not even at lower levels. It's just a waste of very tempting space. But then once you get it, you realize that it's hitbox is about the size of your character's head as well as the "can hit mid-air opponents" line might as well not even be there, and now you have to wait for/buy a skill reset scroll to undo that mistake.

Every class will always need changes eventually. I'm not asking Somersault Kick to be a game breaker, just not a complete waste of skill points. Something usable that you can invest in.

Edited by Jiroxys, 20 September 2011 - 07:45 AM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Every class has a few skill(s) that are practically useless.

[Jiroxys]

Every class has a few skill(s) that are practically useless.

Why not either buff them or just remove them? Especially the ones that aren't prerequisites for anything.

[Reviren]

Why not either buff them or just remove them? Especially the ones that aren't prerequisites for anything.

We'd have to spend more SP! D:

Edited by Reviren, 20 September 2011 - 12:03 PM.

[Jumpluffspore]

The alternative no-knock down thing for ninja form is dumb because if you play "no-ninja form" kind of build, you deserve to lose out on the no knock-down properties of it. Plain and simple. The kick doesn't need to be buffed. Please stop joking. You want another aerial skill with buffed ambush and fly? Hilarious. Don't get me started on what that could be like for HQ's either. We don't need this buff.

[Jiroxys]

The alternative no-knock down thing for ninja form is dumb because if you play "no-ninja form" kind of build, you deserve to lose out on the no knock-down properties of it. Plain and simple. The kick doesn't need to be buffed. Please stop joking. You want another aerial skill with buffed ambush and fly? Hilarious. Don't get me started on what that could be like for HQ's either. We don't need this buff.

First off, you don't need to be so aggressive. This is a discussion about skills in a game. I'm just stating my opinion on them. It's nothing to burn me at the stake for. It's not like if I were saying that your religion is wrong (Whatever it may be). In that case, then it could be understandable. Unless Dragon Sags is your religion or something.

Anyways, my understanding is:
-If you have a Ninja Frenzy focused build, no problem.
-If you have a non-Ninja Frenzy focused build, it has to have Ninja Frenzy abuse the animation cancel. Otherwise it's going to be much worse than it would otherwise be in PvP.

Take for example this statement: (From http://forums.warppo...inja-pvp-guide/)
Ninja Frenzy
Transforms yourself into a ninja.
1/1 If you need to ask why, just stop reading right now. Seriously.

It implies that there is no such thing as a non-Ninja Frenzy build that is anywhere near as viable in PvP.

I simply feel like we shouldn't need to have that skill to be good.


As for Somersault Kick, that's why I suggested to either buff it or delete it. If a skill exists that's not a prereq, is totally useless, AND has no use in any build, then what's the purpose of having it in the first place? All it does is waste space and subject whichever poor soul that put points into it to a skill tree equivalant of buyer's remorse.
There's no reason for it to even be there if it's not going to have SOME practical use.

Edited by Jiroxys, 20 September 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[Jumpluffspore]

First off, you don't need to be so aggressive. This is a discussion about skills in a game. I'm just stating my opinion on them. It's nothing to burn me at the stake for. It's not like if I were saying that your religion is wrong (Whatever it may be). In that case, then it could be understandable. Unless Dragon Sags is your religion or something.

Anyways, my understanding is:
-If you have a Ninja Frenzy focused build, no problem.
-If you have a non-Ninja Frenzy focused build, it has to have Ninja Frenzy abuse the animation cancel. Otherwise it's going to be much worse than it would otherwise be in PvP.

Take for example this statement: (From http://forums.warppo...inja-pvp-guide/)
Ninja Frenzy
Transforms yourself into a ninja.
1/1 If you need to ask why, just stop reading right now. Seriously.

It implies that there is no such thing as a non-Ninja Frenzy build that is anywhere near as viable in PvP.

I simply feel like we shouldn't need to have that skill to be good.


As for Somersault Kick, that's why I suggested to either buff it or delete it. If a skill exists that's not a prereq, is totally useless, AND has no use in any build, then what's the purpose of having it in the first place? All it does is waste space and subject whichever poor soul that put points into it to a skill tree equivalant of buyer's remorse.
There's no reason for it to even be there if it's not going to have SOME practical use.

That's like saying that grens don't need gatling, pf's don't need traps, harlequin doesn't need fd, warlocks don't need fire symbol, and priests don't need barbarian. Also, Somersault kick is decent/fun to play with at level 1-20. Why is it necessary for ALL your skills to be necessary past your first job? That's what I like about this game. Some skills you can grow out of.

[Kazra]

Hey guys. I'm a twin fighter but I want to play a fusion-less build. I think I should get a passive that puts all my twin skills on a 0.5s cooldown(with maxed breath control) because fusion users can abuse that. Oh wait, make that a 1s cooldown because of the .5s cast animation for fusion. So yeah. I think it'd be fair to give me a passive that puts all my twin skills on a 1s cooldown. Oh and give the passive the effect that my twin never falls down or gets launched, because you know, fusion users can recall them back.

Edited by Kazra, 20 September 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Or you could just use common sense that says the skill is useless, not get it, and save everyone's time.

[Jiroxys]

That's like saying that grens don't need gatling, pf's don't need traps, harlequin doesn't need fd, warlocks don't need fire symbol, and priests don't need barbarian. Also, Somersault kick is decent/fun to play with at level 1-20. Why is it necessary for ALL your skills to be necessary past your first job? That's what I like about this game. Some skills you can grow out of.

I suppose that works for me. I was under the impression that it was completely useless from 1-20 as well. (I had personally seen much better things to put points in, and have never seen anyone else use it either.)

Or you could just use common sense that says the skill is useless, not get it, and save everyone's time.

Common sense doesn't tell you about the skill's horrible range though. For a new player, from the description alone, it looks exactly like Air Combo Launch with more damage (not to mention that visually it looks exactly like a red version of it), more flexibility (with being able to hit mid-air targets), at the cost of a higher cooldown and not being bound to up + x. That's what common sense tells you.
It does NOT tell you that the skill has a slightly narrower y-axis range and it also does not tell you that it can't hit said mid-air character unless they're about foot height from the ground. One would assume that "mid-air" would start where the graphic is, which starts somewhere in the vicinity of your character's head. It's not even half that!

Hey guys. I'm a twin fighter but I want to play a fusion-less build. I think I should get a passive that puts all my twin skills on a 0.5s cooldown(with maxed breath control) because fusion users can abuse that. Oh wait, make that a 1s cooldown because of the .5s cast animation for fusion. So yeah. I think it'd be fair to give me a passive that puts all my twin skills on a 1s cooldown. Oh and give the passive the effect that my twin never falls down or gets launched, because you know, fusion users can recall them back.

I'm not totally sure how Fusion works yet. My only real gripe is the animation cancel's effects. Does Fusion do that too? Fusion actually seems to state that it reduces the cooldowns of your other skills while it's active, plus it has a cooldown. So I think most of your argument regarding the attack speed thing is pretty much null. Not to mention Fusion is really an overall buff to the user. The only downside is that it gets rid of your twin and probably disables all of your twin skills (though I may be wrong) where as Ninja Frenzy makes your attacks slow as crap disables a ton of your skills, and changes most of the ones that don't. On top of that I personally think the model is kind of ugly. That's why I'd personally prefer to do a non-Ninja Frenzy build in case you were wondering.

It's more of the problem that there's clearly two paths: Non-Ninja Frenzy and Ninja Frenzy-Focused, and yet apparently trying to go the former will always be much worse as the latter relies on some unlisted mechanic to give them an edge in the fight. To be honest I'm sure it's not a bug, but I very much doubt that it was ever meant to be exploited during a fight like it is.

Edited by Jiroxys, 20 September 2011 - 03:31 PM.

[StormHaven]

If you wanna talk about skills that do thing that they don't say look at the Warrior and Archer skills....
and on that note Ninja frenzy probably as super armor when you cancel or use the skill(I think) and Somersault Kick is an effective skill to skilled players, but since those are few and far between most people don't get it.

Edited by StormHaven, 20 September 2011 - 03:48 PM.

[Kazra]

I'm not totally sure how Fusion works yet. My only real gripe is the animation cancel's effects. Does Fusion do that too? Fusion actually seems to state that it reduces the cooldowns of your other skills while it's active, plus it has a cooldown. So I think most of your argument regarding the attack speed thing is pretty much null. Not to mention Fusion is really an overall buff to the user. The only downside is that it gets rid of your twin and probably disables all of your twin skills (though I may be wrong) where as Ninja Frenzy makes your attacks slow as crap disables a ton of your skills, and changes most of the ones that don't. On top of that I personally think the model is kind of ugly. That's why I'd personally prefer to do a non-Ninja Frenzy build in case you were wondering.

It's more of the problem that there's clearly two paths: Non-Ninja Frenzy and Ninja Frenzy-Focused, and yet apparently trying to go the former will always be much worse as the latter relies on some unlisted mechanic to give them an edge in the fight. To be honest I'm sure it's not a bug, but I very much doubt that it was ever meant to be exploited during a fight like it is.

Attack speed? what? Do I really need to explain Fusion? It's supposed to lower in cooldown (the toggle) when you level it up as well as giving you 1 second cooldown reduce on Fusion skills. That effectively gives you 2.5 second cooldown reduce on Fusion skills if you have level 5 Breath Control. And the toggle will be on a .5 second cooldown with maxed Fusion and Breath Control. And since there's a ~.5 second animation to fuse, we can just assume 1 second. That means if you spam Fusion you change every 1 second. The special thing about Fusion NOT stated in the description is that it resets Twin skill cooldowns. That means level 1 Spirit Spear, which has a cooldown of 10.5 seconds (with level 5 Breath Control) will have a 1 second cooldown. So yes, you can do:

SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS

nonstop. That means Twin skills basically are on a 1s cooldown. I'm only saying this as a comparison to how Ninja form cancels rolls, SD-type knockdowns, knockdowns/launches (if timed correctly). This means someone who uses normal + Fusion/Ninja form will do better than someone who uses only normal form assuming same proficiency at the game. Now what happens when you introduce a new skill to "replace" the forms? The people who use the normal + Fusion/Ninja + new skill will do better than the people who use the normal + new skill. There's no difference. In the end, you're just buffing the entire class, and Ninjas do NOT need that.

Also.. how is there clearly two paths if you can get both of them? It's not like you have to take half of 1 path and half of the other. My ninja at 65 has both with all the useful skills maxed.

[Jiroxys]

Attack speed? what? Do I really need to explain Fusion? It's supposed to lower in cooldown (the toggle) when you level it up as well as giving you 1 second cooldown reduce on Fusion skills. That effectively gives you 2.5 second cooldown reduce on Fusion skills if you have level 5 Breath Control. And the toggle will be on a .5 second cooldown with maxed Fusion and Breath Control. And since there's a ~.5 second animation to fuse, we can just assume 1 second. That means if you spam Fusion you change every 1 second. The special thing about Fusion NOT stated in the description is that it resets Twin skill cooldowns. That means level 1 Spirit Spear, which has a cooldown of 10.5 seconds (with level 5 Breath Control) will have a 1 second cooldown. So yes, you can do:

SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS -> Fusion -> Unfusion -> SS

nonstop. That means Twin skills basically are on a 1s cooldown. I'm only saying this as a comparison to how Ninja form cancels rolls, SD-type knockdowns, knockdowns/launches (if timed correctly). This means someone who uses normal + Fusion/Ninja form will do better than someone who uses only normal form assuming same proficiency at the game. Now what happens when you introduce a new skill to "replace" the forms? The people who use the normal + Fusion/Ninja + new skill will do better than the people who use the normal + new skill. There's no difference. In the end, you're just buffing the entire class, and Ninjas do NOT need that.

Also.. how is there clearly two paths if you can get both of them? It's not like you have to take half of 1 path and half of the other. My ninja at 65 has both with all the useful skills maxed.

Ah, I see. Though I don't agree such things should be doable with Fusion either, I'm going to have to stay on the topic of Ninja Frenzy.
If you had read my post more carefully however, I suggested that the new skill and ninja frenzy would share a cooldown. So using one would put the other, or both of them on a cooldown making it rather pointless to go with both. The opposite option would be to just remove the super armor or whatever it is from ninja frenzy's effect.

[Kazra]

Ah, I see. Though I don't agree such things should be doable with Fusion either, I'm going to have to stay on the topic of Ninja Frenzy.
If you had read my post more carefully however, I suggested that the new skill and ninja frenzy would share a cooldown. So using one would put the other, or both of them on a cooldown making it rather pointless to go with both. The opposite option would be to just remove the super armor or whatever it is from ninja frenzy's effect.

Well you see, Ninja Frenzy's trick requires you to be in Ninja form. You can't do it in normal form. That restricts you from using normal skills until you switch back. Having that new skill would be giving Ninjas in general a buff, which they don't need. And yes, I know you suggested that they'd share a cooldown. That doesn't change the fact that those who use all forms will still do better (again, assuming same proficiency of the class).

[Yurai]

The reason why my guide states that you should have a point in ninja frenzy is because the other skills that it unlocks while you are a ninja is immensely useful to your arsenal, not only for PvP, but for PvE as well. It's not because of the "glitch" or "hack" so you would call it, which, by the way, is an intended use of the skill due to the mechanics of toggle skills.

[iKnowMyABCs]

First off, you don't need to be so aggressive. This is a discussion about skills in a game. I'm just stating my opinion on them. It's nothing to burn me at the stake for. It's not like if I were saying that your religion is wrong (Whatever it may be). In that case, then it could be understandable. Unless Dragon Sags is your religion or something.

Anyways, my understanding is:
-If you have a Ninja Frenzy focused build, no problem.
-If you have a non-Ninja Frenzy focused build, it has to have Ninja Frenzy abuse the animation cancel. Otherwise it's going to be much worse than it would otherwise be in PvP.

Take for example this statement: (From http://forums.warppo...inja-pvp-guide/)
Ninja Frenzy
Transforms yourself into a ninja.
1/1 If you need to ask why, just stop reading right now. Seriously.

It implies that there is no such thing as a non-Ninja Frenzy build that is anywhere near as viable in PvP.

I simply feel like we shouldn't need to have that skill to be good.

What you're saying is that out of all the classes and the subclasses of those classes, we need to have different skill builds that have different gameplays?

As for Somersault Kick, that's why I suggested to either buff it or delete it. If a skill exists that's not a prereq, is totally useless, AND has no use in any build, then what's the purpose of having it in the first place? All it does is waste space and subject whichever poor soul that put points into it to a skill tree equivalant of buyer's remorse.
There's no reason for it to even be there if it's not going to have SOME practical use.

It does have a use, it's for lower levels. I don't know who in the right mind would want to take a 1st advancement skill over a higher job skills.

Edited by iKnowMyABCs, 21 September 2011 - 04:08 AM.

[yabusame]

Head Spin for Rogue needs longer cooldown.

Headspin > upperscrewdriver > ariel frenzy > repeat from first skill

with enough aim and move speed, no one can escape.

[ZeroTanker]

Sin or trickster for me what i notice is trickster cleans anyone who isnt a Sin or pally Sin though could clean trickster with one thing...those dang knives...

[Jumpluffspore]

Sin or trickster for me what i notice is trickster cleans anyone who isnt a Sin or pally Sin though could clean trickster with one thing...those dang knives...

Trickster "cleans" anyone with clumsy control on their character. It's very good at catching vulnerable frames.

[Coolsam]

The reason why my guide states that you should have a point in ninja frenzy is because the other skills that it unlocks while you are a ninja is immensely useful to your arsenal, not only for PvP, but for PvE as well. It's not because of the "glitch" or "hack" so you would call it, which, by the way, is an intended use of the skill due to the mechanics of toggle skills.

Those skills for ninja frenzy itself are pretty powerful (2 of them at least) and quite useful for both catching opponents and combo'ing. In my experience as both playing and pvp'ing ninjas I can say they can give an edge if used right, but are balanced as well.

[Issey51]

Bandit ~Anukus set has Anukus boot 2x?