17 replies to this topic

[Xancath]

Can't get a direct answer, is this allowed or no? What about on the forums?

[wonka]

i think its ilegal but who knows xD

[Ralis]

I've never heard of a straight answer from the GMs, but I've never heard of anyone being banned for it. Gravity doesn't lose anything in the trade... The zeny just goes to another person. It's not zeny being traded for money Gravity isn't getting.

Just be careful about who you trade with. Scams involving WPE are common.

[Xancath]

Alright, but if I get in trouble I'm blaming you Ralis.

[Oda]

Please do not put these on the forums. It's not something that is a suspendable offense if legit, but we cannot endorse it either, leaving it on the forums is something that is troublesome for us. You would not believe how many scams we've had reported to us ("hey gimme your WP password so I can add it to yer account"/chargebacks).

[jax5]

WPE <-> zeny seems to me to be a more direct exchange (as opposed to, for example, vend of HD ore boxes for zeny).

Pros:
-can be a more time efficient means of exchange
-can compete with RMT bot companies (players who would otherwise have illegally bought zeny with $ with none of that $ going to gravity)


Cons:
-issues of security/scams (no type of trade window item that can be redeemed for WPE or escrow game system)
-issues of liability (e.g. WPE purchased from unauthorized CC usage)

[Ralis]

Please do not put these on the forums. It's not something that is a suspendable offense if legit, but we cannot endorse it either, leaving it on the forums is something that is troublesome for us. You would not believe how many scams we've had reported to us ("hey gimme your WP password so I can add it to yer account"/chargebacks).

Would it be possible to consider an in-game item that you can 'redeem' for KP in the future? This way people can just redeem the points themselves and then buy the item to actually have something to trade in-game for the zeny. Would also help with the issue of chargebacks and such.

[Inubashiri]

Would it be possible to consider an in-game item that you can 'redeem' for KP in the future? This way people can just redeem the points themselves and then buy the item to actually have something to trade in-game for the zeny. Would also help with the issue of chargebacks and such.

Sounds like a pretty good idea. I wouldn't use KP for it though since its meant for WPE. However, it kinda goes into a grey area. It more or less actively encouraging the practice.

Edited by Inubashiri, 03 August 2011 - 01:50 PM.

[Rutana]

And if not, why not making a pinned thread to all forums stating the dangers of WPE selling/buying?
So that something like "asking for PW" doesn't happen again?
There are the gift cards which is the best way to send WPE.
Promote these. State that it doesn't need the e-mail adress that you bound to your accounts, or better, say the people to always use a different e-mail adress.
Note the dangers with this trading and state that you can't refund, but that you can catch the scammers if reported.
I think that would be a great solution as well.
If that's up, sellers could sell the WPE even in this Forum and can gather reputation with Thread answers like "I buyed from this person, he didn't scam". This would make it far more safer for buyer and seller as well.


...but of course, an item that allows to convert WPE would be the best...
Or at least convert KP...

[Hrothmund]

Sounds like a pretty good idea. I wouldn't use KP for it though since its meant for WPE. However, it kinda goes into a grey area. It more or less actively encouraging the practice.

I vaguely remember some other WP<->game account issue, and it was explained there was no backwards path/link form ingame account to WP, its all one-way traffic as far as WP->KP etc goes.

Otherwise it'd be awesome to be able to buy an ingame item that represented WP, although the CC fraud cases would be horrendous.

[Inubashiri]

And if not, why not making a pinned thread to all forums stating the dangers of WPE selling/buying?
So that something like "asking for PW" doesn't happen again?
There are the gift cards which is the best way to send WPE.
Promote these. State that it doesn't need the e-mail adress that you bound to your accounts, or better, say the people to always use a different e-mail adress.
Note the dangers with this trading and state that you can't refund, but that you can catch the scammers if reported.
I think that would be a great solution as well.
If that's up, sellers could sell the WPE even in this Forum and can gather reputation with Thread answers like "I buyed from this person, he didn't scam". This would make it far more safer for buyer and seller as well.


...but of course, an item that allows to convert WPE would be the best...
Or at least convert KP...

Oda and I are going to make a F&Q about commonly asked questions eventually where people can ask questions and we'll get official responses to them. I plan on making this one of them for sure because I sometimes forget this isn't supported but not bannable either.

I vaguely remember some other WP<->game account issue, and it was explained there was no backwards path/link form ingame account to WP, its all one-way traffic as far as WP->KP etc goes.

Otherwise it'd be awesome to be able to buy an ingame item that represented WP, although the CC fraud cases would be horrendous.

I've heard sometimes they will make exceptions sometimes, don't take my word for it, if you send in a ticket explaining what happened but certainly don't make a habit of it. Again don't take my word for it, this would probably go on that F&Q as well.

[jax5]

F&Q is a typo for FAQ? Otherwise, I don't understand the acronym: F&Q.

[Inubashiri]

F&Q is a typo for FAQ? Otherwise, I don't understand the acronym: F&Q.

Yeah sorry was half asleep, FAQ is right.

[Andini]

tons of people do it, carry on. pm if you're selling

[Hacks]

i simple solution to this issue would be to simply make a kafra point/ticket item that sells from the kafra shop and can be redeemed at an NPC in eden for actual kafra points. well the first part, making the item, would be easy anyway. i dont know if there is any interface currently that would allow for the checking/adding/subtraction of KP via the NPC script system at this time (and i honestly doubt it), but if there is, it seems like a trivial matter to implement and could be banged out in a matter of hours. even if there isnt support for this now, i'm sure theres some stored procedure that could be abused for this purpose.

as for the matter of VIP, if changes can be made to allow for the required database entries to be made from in game (again, find an exploitable SP), it would be much easier for all involved to pay for VIP by buying a VIP ticket in kafra shop and redeeming it at an NPC.

the combination of these two suggestions removes the need for any such need of the risky matter selling WPE pins for most purposes. with only the requirement of some exploitable stored procedure and some fancy SQL i could see character name changes being handled via in-game NPC. is there nobody on staff with the desire to bend this game to their will? it's high time somebody made the decision to say " kRO, we're going to push this beyond what they imagined for themselves!" and actually start exploiting the exploitable areas of the software and open up our options a bit more. not having the tools for the job is no excuse, google has been around for over a decade, ignorance of it's value in this matter will not be accepted.

[Inubashiri]

Creating an item or something for this purpose starts getting into a grey area because an item would actively encourage the practice. When its just kafra items, there is the excuse that you can trade/vend these items, it gives them plausible deniability, but ultimately its still the players responsiblity to watch out for scams.

[Heimdallr]

In a perfect world (we aren't in that world) players would be able to safely and securely gift points to other players and both of hte players would be secure in the transaction and the company hosting that transaction would have nothing to fear from chargeback or other negative possibilities.

It is a gray area in that we don't really want in-game 'stuff" to get a value = $ because really it doesn't have any value. If you quit playing you aren't "owed" any sort of cash out value, and we are not a bank that can establish a valid trade for $ to z/items. We don't want to be seen as a bank either, 2nd life tried to do this and it worked well right up until the last people want to cash out... and there is no one to buy and then the company is left insuring the value.. so I will say right now items have 0 value.

Now to get to point of player to player trading. I don't have a problem if player A wants to buy kafra shop stuff and give it to another player. That is 100% that players perogative to do that. We are not able to insure that player A and B abide by "deal" when it isn't made with our in-game systems. Basically you can get scammed if when you put your items/z into your trade window and the other party is not putting their compensation into the other side of the trade window. When you do those sort of "trust" trades it is a risk that one side may not fulfill the bargain.

The scamming and chargeback potentials are the biggest reason we can't support the Z for KP types of trades. If you choose to engage in them be sure you are dealing with trustworthy people like your friends, not strangers. If all goes well everyone benefits and the gold spammers are kept out of the loop (and someday they will not be able to profit) , but when it goes bad some people may get blocked due to chargeback or for scamming and disrupting alot of players. (we don't support the practice doesn't mean we don't act against disruptive elements in the game).

So I hope the above completely answers your question clearly. (I know it isn't clear but I have to state all that as it is a gray area)

[Hacks]

Now to get to point of player to player trading. I don't have a problem if player A wants to buy kafra shop stuff and give it to another player. That is 100% that players perogative to do that.

so then, with all that said, why are there still so many kafra shop items untradable/unvendable? i'd love to share the contents of all the boxes i buy with others but so much of this stuff cant even be so much as dropped on the ground. when the server configuration files flag an item ID in such a way that it cannot be removed from a given character it's not really my choice what to do with it, now is it? i buy more than my fair share of light blue pots for my own consumption, when a partymate crys out they're out of SP, do you know how irritating it is to sit there with 300 light blues on you and you cant even drop one on the ground? anyway, i take offence at this statement, it makes you sound as though you belive we CAN trade any item we want (100% perogative) and it simply isnt so.


and on a side note, i'm really sick of all these character bound quest items taking up my inventory space, eden mark is at the top of my -list.